Current Events > Israel upset after UN chief said Hamas massacre 'didn't happen in a vacuum'

(+) Yeah! (+)

Two sources:

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1698160848-un-chief-says-hamas-massacre-didn-t-happen-in-a-vacuum

Israel's envoy to the United Nations on Tuesday lambasted the speech by the body's Secretary-General Antonio Guterres regarding the Hamas massacre.

It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum, Guterres said. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing.
Gilad Erdan wrote on his X account that "the shocking speech," given "while rockets are being fired at all of Israel, proved conclusively, beyond any doubt, that the Secretary-General is completely disconnected from the reality in our region and that he views the massacre committed by Nazi Hamas terrorists in a distorted and immoral manner."
The October 7 massacre, where over 1,400 Israelis were butchered by Palestinian terrorists in horrific circumstances, represents the worst atrocity committed against the Jews since the Holocaust.

https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-united-nations-antonio-guterres-hamas-attack-vacuum-comments/

Israel slams UN chief for saying Hamas attack did not happen in a vacuum, calls for his resignation

Israels ambassador to the United Nations is calling for the resignation of UN Secretary-General Antnio Guterres after he said the Hamas attack on October 7 in which 1,400 people were killed did not happen in a vacuum.
The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation, Guterres said, according to Israeli outlet Haaretz, to the 15-member U.N. Security Council Tuesday after the Hamas-led Ministry of Health in Gaza reported more than 700 Palestinians were killed in 24 hours of Israeli airstrikes, the highest daily death toll since the bombardment began.
But the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas. And those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
The Palestinian territories which are the West Bank and Gaza, in addition to East Jerusalem are widely recognized as occupied by Israel.

After the statement, Israels ambassador to the United Nations Gilad Erdan called Guterres speech shocking on X, formerly Twitter, saying the Secretary-General is completely disconnected from the reality in our region.
There is no justification or point in talking to those who show compassion for the most terrible atrocities committed against the citizens of Israel and the Jewish people, he added on the social media platform.
Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen announced on X he would no longer meet with Guterres.
U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and the Palestinian Authoritys foreign minister Riyad al-Maliki also spoke to those assembled Tuesday, both appealing for mitigating harm to civilians in Gaza. More than 5,700 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli airstrikes since the war began, according to the Hamas-run Ministry of Health in Gaza, the New York Times reported.

reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17fg6yp/un_chief_antonio_guterres_says_hamas_massacre/

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17fkvgl/israel_slams_un_chief_for_saying_hamas_attack_did/

per reddit excerpt of speech:
also source provided so I guess not just per reddit

https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/statement/2023-10-24/secretary-generals-remarks-the-security-council-the-middle-east-delivered

At a crucial moment like this, it is vital to be clear on principles -- starting with the fundamental principle of respecting and protecting civilians. I have condemned unequivocally the horrifying and unprecedented 7 October acts of terror by Hamas in Israel.
Nothing can justify the deliberate killing, injuring and kidnapping of civilians or the launching of rockets against civilian targets.
All hostages must be treated humanely and released immediately and without conditions. I respectfully note the presence among us of members of their families.
Excellencies,
It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum.
The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation.
They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing.
But the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas. And those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
Excellencies,
Even war has rules.
We must demand that all parties uphold and respect their obligations under international humanitarian law; take constant care in the conduct of military operations to spare civilians; and respect and protect hospitals and respect the inviolability of UN facilities which today are sheltering more than 600,000 Palestinians.
The relentless bombardment of Gaza by Israeli forces, the level of civilian casualties, and the wholesale destruction of neighborhoods continue to mount and are deeply alarming.
I mourn and honour the dozens of UN colleagues working for UNRWA - sadly, at least 35 and counting - killed in the bombardment of Gaza over the last two weeks.
I owe to their families my condemnation of these and many other similar killings.
The protection of civilians is paramount in any armed conflict.
Protecting civilians can never mean using them as human shields.
Protecting civilians does not mean ordering more than one million people to evacuate to the south, where there is no shelter, no food, no water, no medicine and no fuel, and then continuing to bomb the south itself.

Good

I hope they are. Maybe it'll spark some self-reflection.

Nothing happens in a vaccum, but so what? British oppression in Ireland didn't make IRA pub bombings okay. French atrocities in Africa and the Middle East didn't make the ISIL terror attacks in Paris understandable. Nothing that the USA did made 9/11 a fair act. And nobody in the West remotely suggested anything of the like, because obviously that would've been stupid.

But Hamas murders a few hundred people at a concert and massacres a couple of villages? Well, nothing happens in a vacuum, you see..... what?

There's plenty of room for criticism about Israeli policies without needing to let that bleed to a blatantly condemnable series of acts by Hamas.

Im out of the loop is it normal to now link to Reddit threads whenever you mention news articles on here? I didnt realize Reddit has gotten so big that happens now with them. You would never see someone on Reddit link to Gamefaqs threads when they post news.

K181 posted...

Nothing happens in a vaccum, but so what? British oppression in Ireland didn't make IRA pub bombings okay. French atrocities in Africa and the Middle East didn't make the ISIL terror attacks in Paris understandable. Nothing that the USA did made 9/11 a fair act. And nobody in the West remotely suggested anything of the like, because obviously that would've been stupid.

But Hamas murders a few hundred people at a concert and massacres a couple of villages? Well, nothing happens in a vacuum, you see..... what?

Hamas murdered 1400 and Isreal is committing genocide in return. Does that seem justifiable to you?

Blue_Inigo posted...

Hamas murdered 1400 and Isreal is committing genocide in return. Does that seem justifiable to you?

No, but Israel doing something bad previously and now doesn't remotely make Hamas terrorism something tolerable.

K181 posted...

Nothing that the USA did made 9/11 a fair act. And nobody in the West remotely suggested anything of the like, because obviously that would've been stupid.

Hasan did.

K181 posted...

No, but Israel doing something bad previously and now doesn't remotely make Hamas terrorism something tolerable.

What Hamas did, they did because Isreal has been ruthlessly killing Palestinians for a long time. This horrific action did not come out of nowhere. They didn't wake up one day and go "hmmm time to attack Isreal because I feel like it".

K181 posted...

No, but Israel doing something bad previously and now doesn't remotely make Hamas terrorism something tolerable.

No one is seriously saying what Hamas did is fine. The UN chief pointed out the truth, that Israel created this conflict via 50 years of trying to wipe out the Palestinian people. Getting butthurt about reality doesn't make it any less true. Hamas are monsters but so is Israel and they do need to get called out for it.

BlueTigerLion posted...

Im out of the loop is it normal to now link to Reddit threads whenever you mention news articles on here? I didnt realize Reddit has gotten so big that happens now with them. You would never see someone on Reddit link to Gamefaqs threads when they post news.

Depends on the topic.

K181 posted...

No, but Israel doing something bad previously and now doesn't remotely make Hamas terrorism something tolerable.

Well, no, but if people started committing terrorism against the North Korean government, maybe we shouldn't pretend the Kim family deserves our support and holds no responsiblity for the situation.

K181 posted...

No, but Israel doing something bad previously and now doesn't remotely make Hamas terrorism something tolerable.

Saying "X happened because of Y" =/= "What Y happened is okay".

so you hate waffles?

Blue_Inigo posted...

What Hamas did, they did because Isreal has been ruthlessly killing Palestinians for a long time. This horrific action did not come out of nowhere. They didn't wake up one day and go "hmmm time to attack Isreal because I feel like it".

Every act of terrorism is in response to a perceived (and often real) injustice. The point is that talking point could always be brought up, and yet it isn't except now for some reason.

ReiRei89 posted...

No one is seriously saying what Hamas did is fine. The UN chief pointed out the truth, that Israel created this conflict via 50 years of trying to wipe out the Palestinian people. Getting butthurt about reality doesn't make it any less true. Hamas are monsters but so is Israel and they do need to get called out for it.

There's plenty of room to be critical os Israel without pretty blatantly downplaying an act of terrorism as a mere reaction.

If Kofi Annan had said a similar thing a few weeks after 9/11, we'd have throngs of people protesting outside the UN for months.

Skype posted...

Saying "X happened because of Y" =/= "What Y happened is okay".

Again, imagine if Kofi Annan had said that 9/11 happened because of American foreign policy in October of 2001. Literally everyone here would be going ballistic. That alone would've been grounds for the US to veto a second term for him.

The truth always hurts.

K181 posted...

Again, imagine if Kofi Annan had said that 9/11 happened because of American foreign policy in October of 2001. Literally everyone here would be going ballistic. That alone would've been grounds for the US to veto a second term for him.

America wasn't actively committing a genocide against people in its own cities.

Skype posted...

Saying "X happened because of Y" =/= "What Y happened is okay".

True, but also nobody every says " Y happened because of Z". It's always "hamas has no choice" but also "all of Israel's actions are completely contextless and driven entirely by evil". Let's ignore that Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza. Let's ignore that they only had elections in the first place because Israel gave up control of the region to make peace with Egypt. Let's ignore that they only had control of the region because they took it to defend against an invasion FROM egypt. Let's ignore that prior to said invasion gaza was controlled by Egypt. Let's ignore that before then gaza was part of an even earlier invasion to wipe Israel out the day they were founded. Let's ignore that data before that Palestine could have been a country but the people rejected the deal because they didn't want to live near Jews.

Let's ignore that hamas has been smuggling weapons and stealing aid for decades while the international community does nothing to stop them. That they fire them from schools and hospitals intentionally and the world lets them. That they've been allowed to fester while surrounding countries demand Israel do more for the people who elected them as they fire rockets into neighborhoods. If only Israel could make peace with people who had in their charter the goal of the global eradication of the Jews. If only other countries gave a shit and tried to stop them.

Wouldn't that also force Israel's hand?

None of that forces Israel to be a colonial apartheid state, no.

K181 posted...

Nothing happens in a vaccum, but so what? British oppression in Ireland didn't make IRA pub bombings okay. French atrocities in Africa and the Middle East didn't make the ISIL terror attacks in Paris understandable. Nothing that the USA did made 9/11 a fair act. And nobody in the West remotely suggested anything of the like, because obviously that would've been stupid.

They don't make them okay, but they do make them much, much more likely to happen. And using a terrorist act to justify further atrocities pretty much makes the cycle unending.

Its important not to spare the Israeli's feelings in this. Ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian peoples causes terrorism. Shelling of Palestinian civilians causes terrorism. Political suppression of Palestinians causes terrorism. Not just in Israel, but all around the world.

K181 posted...

No, but Israel doing something bad previously and now doesn't remotely make Hamas terrorism something tolerable.

Its not about tolerance or sympathy or acceptance or anything like that

It's simply a matter of causal effect.

Like if someone committed a terror attack in the US and we looked at that person's history and see that their family was murdered in a drone strike then its not really a mystery as to what was the principle driving factor in that person becoming a terrorist.

That doesn't make it justifiable. Its more that we need to come to the understanding that killing thousands of civilians in the pursuit of killing hundreds of terrorists will never end terrorism. It will only make more terrorists.

K181 posted...

There's plenty of room to be critical os Israel without pretty blatantly downplaying an act of terrorism as a mere reaction.

If Kofi Annan had said a similar thing a few weeks after 9/11, we'd have throngs of people protesting outside the UN for months.

Yep when Iran was attacked by ISIL terrorists, Trump instead blamed the Iranians for supposedly causing it despite the fact that Iran funds anti-ISIL militants.

People are still trying to pretend Israel doesnt have a history?

s0nicfan posted...

Let's ignore that Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza.

Did they really have a choice in the matter?

s0nicfan posted...

Let's ignore that Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza

17 years ago they were elected.

Today half of Gaza is 18 and under.

The people alive in Gaza today did not elect Hamas into power.

Edit: and they won 17 years ago with something like 40% of the vote.

people still think elections matter with corrupt governments?

Solar_Crimson posted...

Did they really have a choice in the matter?

Even assuming they didn't, what has the international community been doing since they were first elected to help take them out of power? How have they been identifying where Hamas is getting their rockets from, how have they been combating the smuggling, what did they do when it turned out Hamas was using aid money to build concrete tunnels, or when they were disassembling water pipes to make more rockets, or every time they fire into a civilian center from the school. What has been done in the last few decades to remove Hamas so that Israel doesn't feel like they have to take these actions?

Because like I said, people like to pretend as if Hamas is some uncontrollable force of nature born entirely from Israeli actions that are centered exclusively in greed and evil as if Hamas aren't people with agency being supported by other people with agency. Apply the same level of context and nuance in justifying why Hamas exists to why haven't they been removed yet and tell me what conclusions you come to.

Yea, Israel throws a fit when anyone points out reality

Everyone knows Israel always existed and nothing happened in '48 or several distinct years after.

Britain also had no involvement and the repeated moving of Palestinians and crushed homes never happened.

Just like Rachel Corrie wasn't run over by a bulldozer in 2003 and is still mocked by some Israeli's for her peaceful protest.

s0nicfan posted...

Apply the same level of context and nuance in justifying why Hamas exists to why haven't they been removed yet and tell me what conclusions you come to.

Ok and when this war spills over to Egypt and Jordan then do they not have the same right to respond?

Your nuanced "solution" is a race to the bottom.

K181 posted...

No, but Israel doing something bad previously and now doesn't remotely make Hamas terrorism something tolerable.

The point isnt that it makes it tolerable, the point is that Israel isnt blameless in this conflict. Their policies, their actions contribute to the causes of this violence. Hamas isnt the only bad actor, Israels government is as well.

s0nicfan posted...

True, but also nobody every says " Y happened because of Z". It's always "hamas has no choice" but also "all of Israel's actions are completely contextless and driven entirely by evil". Let's ignore that Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza. Let's ignore that they only had elections in the first place because Israel gave up control of the region to make peace with Egypt. Let's ignore that they only had control of the region because they took it to defend against an invasion FROM egypt. Let's ignore that prior to said invasion gaza was controlled by Egypt. Let's ignore that before then gaza was part of an even earlier invasion to wipe Israel out the day they were founded. Let's ignore that data before that Palestine could have been a country but the people rejected the deal because they didn't want to live near Jews.

Let's ignore that hamas has been smuggling weapons and stealing aid for decades while the international community does nothing to stop them. That they fire them from schools and hospitals intentionally and the world lets them. That they've been allowed to fester while surrounding countries demand Israel do more for the people who elected them as they fire rockets into neighborhoods. If only Israel could make peace with people who had in their charter the goal of the global eradication of the Jews. If only other countries gave a shit and tried to stop them.

Wouldn't that also force Israel's hand?

Are we ignoring that Muslims and Jews lived side by side for generations in the region, most of the time in peace?
How they were not against Jews per se, just against how the West had whispered promises about creating their own countries that they would decide over, just to have them start talking about giving it to somebody else?
Are we ignoring that they have played But the other side did... for generations?

Foppe posted...

Are we ignoring that Muslims and Jews lived side by side for generations in the region, most of the time in peace?
How they were not against Jews per se, just against how the West had whispered promises about creating their own countries that they would decide over, just to have them start talking about giving it to somebody else?
Are we ignoring that they have played But the other side did... for generations?

Yeah, an empire ruling over everybody and telling them they have to get along will create peace. We call that a one-state solution.

But it's pretty revisionist to say they generally got along. Yes, they were Jews living in these places, but they were living in predominantly muslim, Islamic theocratic nations where they had to pay a special tax and were second class citizens given fewer rights who were told that they were privileged to not be killed on sight simply because they share the same abrahamic god. And that's ignoring the various slaughters that happened over the centuries during the time that they were supposedly all just getting along.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic%E2%80%93Jewish_relations

Traditionally Jews living in Muslim lands, known (along with Christians) as dhimmis, were allowed to practice their religion and to administer their internal affairs but subject to certain conditions.[40] They had to pay the jizya (a per capita tax imposed on free, adult non-Muslim males) to the Muslim government but were exempted from paying the zakat (a tax imposed on free, adult Muslim males).[40] Dhimmis were prohibited from bearing arms or giving testimony in most Muslim court cases, for there were many Sharia laws which did not apply to Dhimmis, who practiced Halakha.[41] A common misconception is that of the requirement of distinctive clothing, which is a law not taught by the Qur'an or hadith but allegedly invented by the Abbasid Caliphate in early medieval Baghdad.[42] Jews rarely faced martyrdom or exile, or forced compulsion to change their religion, and they were mostly free in their choice of residence and profession.[43] They did, however, have certain restrictions placed upon them, listed in the Pact of Umar. The Pact of Umar was a set of guidelines placed upon Jews in Islamic territories, many of them being very restrictive and prohibitive.

However, Jews still experienced tense and violent times they were often discriminated against and, as a result, were often the recipient of many violent acts placed upon them.[45] The notable examples of massacre of Jews include the killing or forcible conversion of them by the rulers of the Almohad dynasty in Al-Andalus in the 12th century.[46][47] Notable examples of the cases where the choice of residence was taken away from them includes confining Jews to walled quarters (mellahs) in Morocco beginning from the 15th century and especially since the early 19th century.[48] Most conversions were voluntary and happened for various reasons.[additional citation(s) needed] However, there were some forced conversions in the 12th century under the Almohad dynasty of North Africa and al-Andalus as well as in Persia.[46]