Current Events > Debunking Pro-Israel Propaganda (Credit Does not belong to me.)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Do not credit me for this , as I did not make this , but I felt there were a lot of good points, and it should help inform and keep up the fight against the Propaganda.

Peace is possible. But we have to first dismantle the false narrative that war is the only answer. Each war-mongering talking-point is in large text. The text below it debunks or provides needed context for the misleading claims.

" The palestinians were offered their own state multiple times but rejected it "

This is a crass characterization. The first 'offer' was viewed by Arabs as an attempt to legitimise ethnic cleansing. The first partition was proposed by the peel commision in 1937, and then voted through by the UN in 1947. The Arab representation objected on the basis that:

• https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-212035/
• It would result in the eviction of many palestinians from their homes
• Arabs were seeking a shared state where all religious groups were respected
• Arabs outnumbered Jews 2:1 and didnt fancy being pushed out into the hills of the west bank

Once the resolution was passed, a civil war occured. 500 Palestinian towns were destroyed, and 800,000 arabs fled into neighbouring countries, known as the Nakba. As a result, the neighbouring arab countries declared war in order to prevent further bloodshed. Here is the Arab declration of war, and it's very reasonable.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cablegram_from_the_Secretary-General_of_the_League_of_Arab_States_to_the_Secretary-General_of_the_United_Nations

" The Governments of the Arab States hereby confirm at this stage the view that had been repeatedly declared by them on previous occasions, such as the London Conference and before the United Nations mainly, the only fair and just solution to the problem of Palestine is the creation of United State of Palestine based upon the democratic principles which will enable all its inhabitants to enjoy equality before the law, and which would guarantee to all minorities the safeguards provided for in all democratic constitutional States affording at the same time full protection and free access to Holy Places. The Arab States emphatically and repeatedly declare that their intervention in Palestine has been prompted solely by the considerations and for the aims set out above and that they are not inspired by any other motive whatsoever. They are, therefore, confident that their action will receive the support of the United Nations as tending to further the aims and ideals of the United Nations as set out in its Charter. "

The next effort at a 2-state solution was the Oslo accords in 1993. The Oslo accords were agreed, but they were not an agreement on the final 2-state solution. It was meant to create a palestinian autonomy and recognised negotiating partner as the basis for future negotiations. It created a temporary arrangement of who-controls-what in the west bank. The intention was that Israel would slowly withdraw from the west bank, removing settlements and transferring authority to the Palestinians. THe early days of the Oslo accords saw some progress, with Israel removing some settlements. However, due to mistrust on both sides, the process failed, and Israel starting building more settlements. The failure of the Oslo accords is very nicely explained here:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/why-the-oslo-accords-failed/

Things deteriorated under Netanyahu, whose clear intention is to annex all of the west bank. The strategy is to isolate palestinian communities into separate 'enclaves', boxed in by Israeli settlements. This boxing makes enclave expansion impossible. Freedom of movement is restricted between enclaves. Here is Netanyahu mocking the Oslo accords, and eloquently explaining how to use it to his advantage:

https://youtu.be/mvqCWvi-nFo?si=ivqUTnIuK6VF9edO

Many Palestinian believe the Oslo accords to be a huge failure as it legitimised the apartheid system that still operates today. This all serves as a depressing lesson about how peace agreements can be weaponised.
In 2008, Ireali priminister Olmert offered Abbas 93% of the west bank:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer

But Abbas didnt commit to it, preferring future talks and scrutiny of the map. There are conflicting accounts of whether or not it was 'rejected' and why. I think the best characterization is that it was an ongoing back-and-forth process of alterations. Both sides were making real progress to and getting close to a finalized agreement. What is crytal clear is that Netanyahu was stanuchly opposed to it, and he scrapped it immediately upon reelection.

There have been no serious efforts at a 2-state solution since then. Netanyahu has accelerated settlements of the west bank. https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/03/human-rights-council-hears-current-israeli-plan-double-settler-population-occupied#:~:text=The%20Human%20Rights%20Council%20this,living%20illegally%20in%20the%20occupied

" Hamas prevent the peace process. Their charter calls for eradicating jews. They cannot be negotiated with. "

• This conflict predates Hamas
• Hamas does present a real securtity threat to Israel. But a charter written decades ago is not an eternal representation of hamas or palestinians. Their original charter is indeed poison. Although they have reformed their charter since then, apparently accepting a 2-state solution, their charter still contains much poison.
• The PNA is the recognized negotuating partner, not Hamas
• Hamas are willing to seek peaceful solutions. Hamas participated in an entire year of peaceful protests (the march of return).
• The PNA have endlessly sought legal solutions through the UN. The US and UK repeatedly block them. The most recent legal challenge was brought only a few months ago. The UK blocked it. We were warned that the situation is gaza is deteriorating rapidly. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/24/uk-seeking-block-icj-ruling-israeli-occupation-palestine
• Radical rhetoric exists on both sides. The netanyahu government is open about wanting to annex the west bank and gaza, and remove arabs from the land. The Netanyahu governemnt denies palestines right to exist
• Radical rhetoric on the Palestinian side is caused by the realization that the Israel government is aiming to annex the west bank and gaza by starving them out.
• Negotiations are not required. You do not need to negotiate with Hamas to stop stealing their water and land. Withdrawal from the west bank does not require negoations with hamas. There are many positive solutions that Israel can implement unilaterally.
• The core issue is the lack of Isreal's political will. The netanyahu government relies on votes from setllers, who have one of the highest birth rates in the world (Haredi jews have 6-7 children per family). It also relies on a coalition with fringe parties.

" Gaza is not under occupation "

• The land, sea and air borders is under lockdown for the past 20 years.
• The water, electricity and imports are controlled by Israel
• According to wikleaks leak, Israel calculates the calorific requirement of the gaza strip to keep gaza on the 'brink of collapse'
• Israel steals gaza's water and sells it back to them. They do this by building deep wells around the gazan border, sucking out the ground water from gaza. The result is that gaza's own tap water is undrinkable, contaminated by raw sewage and sea water. Many in gaza cannot afford to buy clean water. 25% of illnesses in gaza is caused by tap water. Gaza has constant cholera outbreaks as a result. https://climate-diplomacy.org/case-studies/israel-palestine-water-sharing-conflict

" Israel gave them Gaza in good faith, and look how that worked out for them "

The 2005 disengagement of gaza was based on demographic engineering. The core issue is that a democratic jewish state requires a majority jewish population. But there are more Muslims than Jews in the region. So Israel needs to expel muslims and draw it's borders around any community that is majority muslim. Palestinians are first and foremost a demographic threat.

The Israeli priminister Olmert put it quite eloquently:

"More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against 'occupation,' in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish state. The parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians."

Israel regards palestinian integration and equal rights as an existential threat. This is also why palestinian enclaves in the west bank are isolated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

According to wikleaks leak, Israel calculates the calorific requirement of the gaza strip to keep gaza on the 'brink of collapse'.

" Palestinians are terrorist sympathisers. They voted for Hamas. "

• They are traumatized and desparate. Each one of them has witnessed things that would break anyone of us.
• They are taunted by the Israel government, who is openly starving them out of their land.
• All peaceful reosltuions are blocked by the UN veto
• They join Hamas because they need money. Hamas pays people $10 a day to dig tunnels. They risk their lives to dig tunnels to pay for food and water. They need to pay for water because Israel steals it and sells it back to them. I think if these people had some better source of employment, they would take it. Social Justice will not end terrorism completely. But creating alternatives to Terrorism will work to weaken it.

" Hamas uses human shields "
Hamas do not control the airspace. They cant just go set up in an open field somewhere. They have to hide to survive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMTuRM8d28o&t=70s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l78dOLxt6_g

" Palestinians should reject Hamas "

• Palestinians have no leverage, no power, and no legitimate route to solutions. You cannot require they give up their only weapons
• You cannot require they turn on each other as a precondition for peace talks
• You cannot require they deradicalise while they live in such crisis and desparation.
• Unarmed civilians cannot overcome an armed terrorist group. Not even America was able to defeat the Taliban for example.
• This is all an excuse. Stop stealing their water and land.

" Israel are 'minimising civilian casualties' "

If their strategy is to eradicate terrorism by bombing a city, then they are not minimising civilian casualties. You cannot bomb terrorism away, unless you kill everyone. Phoning sometimes with a bomb-warning rings pretty hollow in this context.

" So you think the attack on the 7th Oct was justified ?!!!??? "

The massacre on the 7th was absolutely disgusting. Everyone must be held accountable. Not just those who were directly involved, but also everyone who has been complicit in allowing this atrocity to occur.

Those who object to Israel are not justifying or glorifying terrorism. We are demanding FULL accountablility. Not just of Hamas, but of the governments who have repeatedly disregarded peace efforts. Netanyahu held peace in the palm of his hand, and he threw it away. He mocked it. He promised to bring 'fear and collapse' upon palestinians. He must be held accoutable also. So must the governments of the west who blocked every UN resolution.

" A peaceful Solution is impossible. "

Wrong. This is the dangerous lie we must overcome. We must remember that Olmert came very close to a deal in 2008, before crooked Netanyahu scrapped it. Many in Israel support a solution. Amongst Isreali voting citizens, 21% are Arab. Netanyahu clings to power with a fragile cooalition of fringe parties. Unite around a single candidate with a clear mandate for peace.
A 2-state solution is the answer. But it will not happen immediately. It will take decades to implement. Israel cannot open it's borders in the near-term. A major sticking point for Israel are their defence concerns. The west bank is geographically a nightmare to control. There is the worry that concessions will only allow militants to gain strength. Isreal must be re-assured of it's national security by the international community.
imo, the steps are:

• Ceasefire
• Netanyahu must go, and be replaced with a leader the palestinians could trust. Netanyahu's presence in office (and his crooked cronies) destroy trust
• Israel must first demonstrate good faith by the following measures
• Announce a halt to settlements, and a reformation of property laws which encourage Jews to sell up and leave the west-bank.
• Seek a neutral UN poeacekeeping force in the west bank
• Dismantle some acquifiers north of the gazan border. This would allow the gazan groundwater to recover so the tap water becomes drinkable.
• Allow some palestinian enclaves to connect.
• Scrap the graded ID system, which currently only allows palestinians to downgrade their residential status
• Reform the selective policing of sectarian violence
• Cool the rhetoric

And what does Israel get in return for this?:

• A reformation of the Hamas charter
• A change to public rhetoric
• A ceasefire
• Hostages back

To be clear, it is impossible to agree to this all at once. This is the end goal which would have to be implemented in a careful step-by-step manner. Peace is a process, not a single legal agreement. At each stage, each side must be very careful not to push beyond the limits of public opinion. Public opinion limits what each side can offer at each stage. Hamas cannot change their charter immediately, as the leader would be swiftly removed. Neither can the new Israel prime minister cannot annouce all those concessions immediately as he he wouldnt have the politcal support.

Therefore the initial negotiations must be secret, with coordinated and cooperative PR between both sides to get the public onside for the next step. It is critical to avoid careless messaging that could stoke mistrust. Every action must be preceded with careful PR. And Isreal must lead each step with a good faith unilateral measure (such as handing over a water well in the westbank).

The international community must step up and play their part. Israel is rightly concerned about it's security. And rightly worried that concessions will grant too much leverage to their enemies. The USA must do everything possible to reassure Israel of it's security throughout the peace-process in order to prevent a spiral of mistrust.

Given the amount of atrocities and hatred on both sides, it is challenging, but not impossible, to get public opinion to shift towards trust and hope. The narrative needs to change towards focusing on the NEXT generation. We cannot allow another generation of people to be born into stateless misery. We must work towards a solution that brings a better life for the innocent unborn. They bear no responsibility for the 7th attack and we should always remind people of that.

------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------
Please not only feel free, but feel strongly encouraged to post any more information that helps debunk Pro-Israel Propaganda surrounding the Israel-Palestine Conflict.
--------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------

Someone else chimed in on some of the issues with this solution

these are good resources for the most part..but I personally still am not convinced that a two state solution is practical, fair, or even negotiable at this point questions remain for me: who will draw the borders? Will "Israel" as a state continue to exist with the same govt, same zionist ideals, or will it somehow be decolonized/replaced by a different governing body? Who would govern Palestine? Will Palestinians be allowed to return to their ancestral land and homes freely? Will Jewish people around the world still be able to find refuge in Israel? Will Palestine be offered reparations and assistance with rebuilding?

Ultimately - What will keep the peace, essentially? what will keep Israel (or Palestine for that matter) from continuing to have armed disputes over land?

Imo i think a more appropriate solution could be closer to a one state solution + something like the landback movement in the states. Or at the very least if there is a 2 state solution, providing dual citizenship to Palestinians for them to come and go as they please.

Also of course i think reparations are in order.

Still at the end of the day, i don't think the existential threat to Jewish life is at all fabricated or a bogeyman - jewish persecution has a long, bloody history and is entirely based in reality. Jewish persecution and antisemitism in the diaspora is a major reason for the continued existence of Israel. And with the current global rise in antisemitism, i think it's important to consider what can be done to both consider jewish safety while ultimately centering the freedom & independence of Palestinians when talking about the final solution.

I am not suggesting that Palestinians in general pose a major threat to jews, or even want to harm them, and of course I would not blame Palestinians for feeling furious or vengeful or violent etc due to
Israeli apartheid/colonialism/genocide. But I still am hesitant to endorse any solution that may bolster antisemitic conspiracies or beliefs, or enable further coordinated attacks on Jewish civilians. At the other end too there are absolutely Israeli jews that hold resentment toward Palestinians/Muslims/"Arabs" in their hearts, or are flat out racist/islamophobic, either due to a sense of supremacy, Israeli/zionist propaganda, or just in response to the 10/7 attacks/other antisemitic hate crimes or some sort of combination, and they have shown that beyond just military action, islamophobic/racist civilians are also willing to commit hate crimes against their Palestinian neighbors.

Im in no way trying to assert that they're both just as bad as one another. Israel is the clear "bad guy" here and there is NO excuse for the genocide, occupation, and apartheid committed against Palestinians. Never ever. Their continued occupation of Gaza /West Bank and heinous war crimes were absolutely to blame for the existence of Hamas and the attack on 10/7. But I am at least hoping for a resolution that can keep the peace and mitigate risk for Palestinians and Jews alike. And at the end of the day I don't think a two state solution will accomplish that.

I'm open to discussion on this because i am far from an expert, and am just some random American with opinions lmao. It's just not clear to me how a 2 state solution would work but I'd like to hear other viewpoints.

In my opinion...

who will draw the borders?

The border will pretty be much the ones negotiated already by Olmert and Abbas in 2008. The establishement of the borders will be a slow process whereby palestinian enclaves are allowed to connect and expand.

Ultimately - What will keep the peace, essentially?

In the west-bank, a neutral UN peacekeeping force. In Gaza, Hamas. The military blockade will remain for some time, but with much improved economic aid and access. Isreal and USA will maintain complete security of Isreal-proper.

Will "Israel" as a state continue to exist with the same govt, same zionist ideals, or will it somehow be decolonized/replaced by a different governing body?

Israel will remain a jewish zionist state within the 1967 borders. I've never liked the idea of an ethno-state, but it exists now and we just have to accept that.

Imo i think a more appropriate solution could be closer to a one state solution + something like the landback movement in the states. Or at the very least if there is a 2 state solution, providing dual citizenship to Palestinians for them to come and go as they please.

This is completely off the table, even though it would be ideal for many. But the reality is Israel wont integrate all palestinians because they would become majority muslim. They will end up in a muslim state and that is, for them, the end of the jewish state. That's why a one-state solution is or binationality not happening.

Will Palestinians be allowed to return to their ancestral land and homes freely?

It would not include the full right-of-return. All peace processes so far have only included the 'local' palestinians. That is, those living with westbank and gaza. There are a further 5 million refugees dotted around the outskirts of Israel. They tend to get excluded from the proces unfortunately. I think they should be allowed to return - slowly - to the west bank, but not allowed to return to Israel. It's not perfect. It's not truly just. But it will be much much better for future generations.
----------------------
A 2-state solution is tough but not impossible, and its the only solution aside from genocide. So it really doesnt matter how difficult it is, we just need to accept it and stop prevaricating.
I would hope that Saudi Arabia can stump up some cash for this. They have an enormous pot of money for infrastructure projects ($800 Billion!!). Currently, they are wasting it with the dumbest projects you could possibly imagine. Check out these dumb projects: https://youtu.be/YkJupJRTcoA?si=mJl36KxRoRYr2BPe
Just one of these projects - 'The Line', will cost a Trillion Dollars! And it will all be wasted. MBS, spare a few Bill for regional stability wont you??

Sir, Wendy's, etc.

Incredibly evil what Israel has done to the Palestinian people

There's a good documentary from 2016 that I recommend to people, especially Americans, about how Israel is portrayed in mainstream media. It gives a good insight into why so many Americans support Israel and are completely misled about the reality of the conflict and why it continues.

It's called Occupation of the American Mind: Israel's Public Relations War in the United States.

You can watch the full documentary on Youtube.

https://youtu.be/dP0-YohJR-g?si=q04OEyRzytY9M_p4

Bump

a-c-a-b posted...

There's a good documentary from 2016 that I recommend to people, especially Americans, about how Israel is portrayed in mainstream media. It gives a good insight into why so many Americans support Israel and are completely misled about the reality of the conflict and why it continues.

It's called Occupation of the American Mind: Israel's Public Relations War in the United States.

You can watch the full documentary on Youtube.

https://youtu.be/dP0-YohJR-g?si=q04OEyRzytY9M_p4

Thank You for sharing! I will definitely give it a watch!