Current Events > UPS threatened a strike b/c they got paid "only" $145k/yr?

(+) Yeah! (+)

IdiotMachine posted...

Im not upset. Im happy for them.

"only" must have been a huge typo on your part then.

Naysaspace posted...

Lol they make like 17 bucks an hour in Canada

starting wage, they'll be at $25 in a couple years, $30 in less than a decade

IMNOTRAGED posted...

A good argument as to why we shouldn't base so much of our civilization around private profit seeing as that's a fucking stupid stance to take on any grounds other than "I'm not gonna make quite as much money off of someone else's labor."

I mean sure, but thats not how the world works.

Hell, UPS stocks went down, and I bet itll continue to go down. For investors, the idea that drivers are getting paid $170k vs $60k for FedEx, a direct competitor, is ridiculous.

Imagine youre hiring someone to do work around your house. Would you pay them 3x more for a slightly better service? Hell no you wouldnt.

Again, Im not mad at all; Im happy for the employees. I am hoping this trend continues, and FedEx is forced to pay more.

boomgetchopped3 posted...

Including benefits could be taken to mean two completely different things. The only way to say this without causing confusion is to specify base salary.

average pay today is about 60K

so that 170k figure is most likely that 5 years from now it will be 80k and the rest is benefits

seems intent to mislead

IdiotMachine posted...

I mean sure, but thats not how the world works.

Hell, UPS stocks went down, and I bet itll continue to go down.

The stock market is not a machine that spits out moral outcomes.

IdiotMachine posted...

Hell, UPS stocks went down, and I bet itll continue to go down

Your argument MIGHT make sense if workers got profit share or something

IdiotMachine posted...

I mean sure, but thats not how the world works.

Hes explaining to you how we can make the world work even better than how you (wrongly) think it does now.

And unions are making that change everyday.

Cry harder.

Intro2Logic posted...

The stock market is not a machine that spits out moral outcomes.

I never said it was. I literally said that thats how the world works. Ever since Friedman, stocks were all about increasing its own profits and driving stocks up.

IdiotMachine posted...

I literally said that thats how the world works.

It doesn't have to be how you work

IdiotMachine posted...

I never said it was. I literally said that thats how the world works. Ever since Friedman, stocks were all about increasing its own profits and driving stocks up.

Heres the thing though: the world changes despite your tears.

lol even though the 170k is a misleading lie

it is having a good effect it seems

UPS did it to make themselves look better

but now people are searching UPS jobs in mass according to news sites

I bet this cause FedEx employees to Unionize as many jump ship

Definitely feels like TC doesn't understand the value of labor or money

Seems like the sheltered type

Skankhair posted...

Heres the thing though: the world changes despite your tears.

? Why are you thinking Im crying? lolwtf

Why do you even think the world is changing when CEOs are still literally being paid by stock, and their mission is to raise stock prices higher and higher, and costs are going up across the board?

maybe people will says "if UPS driver makes 170k I should make more!"

cmon guys lets all unionize and demand at least 170k

rodu_jr posted...

starting wage, they'll be at $25 in a couple years, $30 in less than a decade

No they wont

BunkerBoy posted...

Definitely feels like TC doesn't understand the value of labor or money

Seems like the sheltered type

Value of labor is whoever is willing to do the bare minimum work requirements that the employer sets at for the lowest amount the employer is willing to pay. Unless its a sales / commission based, or profit-sharing business, the amount of $$$ your labor produces has very little relevance to the market price of the work you can do.

Everyone loves to focus on when companies make record profits; but say a company is negative and loses money. Does this mean you should also get a pay cut or you should now pay into the company to make the company survive?

Naysaspace posted...

No they wont

I'm in Canada, work at Fed Ex since 2011, and I make $31 an hour. UPS drivers get to that rate faster than my guys

BunkerBoy posted...

Your argument MIGHT make sense if workers got profit share or something

They actually do get weird stock discounts. I don't remember the details, but it wasn't anything crazy. Like 5% I think and there were stipulations about not being able to sell it for X amount of time.

Tbh, this was probably lumped into the benefits number.

the actual details instead of the bs UPS said:

https://teamster.org/2023/07/weve-changed-the-game-teamsters-win-historic-ups-contract/

• Historic wage increases. Existing full- and part-time UPS Teamsters will get $2.75 more per hour in 2023. Over the length of the contract, wage increases will total $7.50 per hour.
• Existing part-timers will be raised up to no less than $21 per hour immediately, and part-time seniority workers earning more under a market rate adjustment would still receive all new general wage increases.
• General wage increases for part-time workers will be double the amount obtained in the previous UPS Teamsters contract and existing part-time workers will receive a 48 percent average total wage increase over the next five years.
• Wage increases for full-timers will keep UPS Teamsters the highest paid delivery drivers in the nation, improving their average top rate to $49 per hour.
• Current UPS Teamsters working part-time would receive longevity wage increases of up to $1.50 per hour on top of new hourly raises, compounding their earnings.
• New part-time hires at UPS would start at $21 per hour and advance to $23 per hour.
• All UPS Teamster drivers classified as 22.4s would be reclassified immediately to Regular Package Car Drivers and placed into seniority, ending the unfair two-tier wage system at UPS.
• Safety and health protections, including vehicle air conditioning and cargo ventilation. UPS will equip in-cab A/C in all larger delivery vehicles, sprinter vans, and package cars purchased after Jan. 1, 2024. All cars get two fans and air induction vents in the cargo compartments.
• All UPS Teamsters would receive Martin Luther King Day as a full holiday for the first time.
• No more forced overtime on Teamster drivers days off. Drivers would keep one of two workweek schedules and could not be forced into overtime on scheduled off-days.
• UPS Teamster part-timers will have priority to perform all seasonal support work using their own vehicles with a locked-in eight-hour guarantee. For the first time, seasonal work will be contained to five weeks only from November-December.
• The creation of 7,500 new full-time Teamster jobs at UPS and the fulfillment of 22,500 open positions, establishing more opportunities through the life of the agreement for part-timers to transition to full-time work.
• More than 60 total changes and improvements to the National Master Agreement more than any other time in Teamsters history and zero concessions from the rank-and-file.

Jiek_Fafn posted...

Tbh, this was probably lumped into the benefits number.

100%

IdiotMachine posted...

Value of labor is whoever is willing to do the bare minimum work requirements that the employer sets at for the lowest amount the employer is willing to pay.

And then there are these things called unions, where people collectively agree that they will withhold labor if the amount the employer is willing to pay isn't high enough

IdiotMachine posted...

Everyone loves to focus on when companies make record profits; but say a company is negative and loses money. Does this mean you should also get a pay cut or you should now pay into the company to make the company survive?

Why are you asking this as if it doesn't happen. Are you aware of the concept of lay offs?

IdiotMachine posted...

? Why are you thinking Im crying? lolwtf

Because you arent good at acting.

Why do you even think the world is changing when CEOs are still literally being paid by stock, and their mission is to raise stock prices higher and higher, and costs are going up across the board?

Uh, did you read the topic that you posted? This is literally an example of positive change. Yikes.

IdiotMachine posted...

Everyone loves to focus on when companies make record profits; but say a company is negative and loses money. Does this mean you should also get a pay cut or you should now pay into the company to make the company survive?

This is hilarious because people already get pay cuts when companies struggle, but raises when there are record profits are much more rare. So your point is super silly my guy.

IMNOTRAGED posted...

Why are you asking this as if it doesn't happen. Are you aware of the concept of lay offs?

even funnier is companies STILL layoff when their profits are soaring

so not only will the fire you when they are down but when they are up

Skankhair posted...

This is hilarious because people already get pay cuts when companies struggle, but raises when there are record profits are much more rare. So your point is super silly my guy.

I don't think TC has much experience in the working world if he thinks profits get shared among employees

IMNOTRAGED posted...

And then there are these things called unions, where people collectively agree that they will withhold labor if the amount the employer is willing to pay isn't high enough

Oh absolutely. Unions are great for non-professionals, and what some would call unskilled labor (though every labor requires skill, these are jobs that are much easier to be replaced by someone vs a professional, like an educated trade (e.g., doctor), manager/supervisor, etc., as defined by the federal guidelines for exempt/non-exempt employees). If you think you are being treated poorly and are in need for a union, go for it.

Back to your own personal life, though- whenever you hire someone to do work for you, wouldnt you generally go with the lowest bidder that can achieve the results that you want? This is literally the same thing, but on a huge scale.

BunkerBoy posted...

I don't think TC has much experience in the working world if he thinks profits get shared among employees

The 1st company I ever worked for in my professional career did not have profit sharing. The 2nd company I worked for had profit sharing. It was 2% of any project that you were working on. I made well over $100k in my mid-20s, which Im proud about (though Im sure there are others who are like thats it?!).

My job I have now is in the federal government sector, so I cant unionize. Im happy with my salary (low $100k; nowhere near as my 2nd company) and very very happy with my benefits and the extreme job security I am afforded now. Im also very satisfied with the work I do, so Im pretty happy about my situation.

WingsOfGood posted...

....
But again this is what UPS is saying and they aren't paying that money they are figuring benefits 5 years from now they give be worth that.....

Yet every other source says the average a driver makes is 50-60 k

that is 110k difference.....

If you read into it a large portion of the benefits are going to things like healthcare and paid time off. If you are anew employee you are going to be getting a fraction of the PTO of the veteran employees and if you are young and healthy you aren't going to be benefiting from the massive amount of cash the company is spending on employee healthcare.

Atralis posted...

If you read into it a large portion of the benefits are going to things like healthcare and paid time off. If you are new employee you are going to be getting a fraction of the PTO of the veteran employees and if you are young and healthy you aren't going to be benefiting from the massive amount of cash the company is spending on employee healthcare.

So TC is being disingenuous using the 145k figure. That was the point I think

IdiotMachine posted...

Back to your own personal life, though- whenever you hire someone to do work for you, wouldnt you generally go with the lowest bidder that can achieve the results that you want? This is literally the same thing, but on a huge scale.

So why accept prices constantly increasing? Think about it.

IdiotMachine posted...

Back to your own personal life, though- whenever you hire someone to do work for you, wouldnt you generally go with the lowest bidder that can achieve the results that you want? This is literally the same thing, but on a huge scale

I understand that. I'm saying that it's bad for our society to continue operating on that principle.

They deserve it but only got what they deserve from their Union

BunkerBoy posted...

So TC is being disingenuous using the 145k figure. That was the point I think

I mean I gave all sorts of sources disproving it.

Even the articles claiming it is 170k if you read it says 170k in 5 years time when you put benefits into it too.

TC ignoring this on purpose because it is obvious he is upset a corporation will lose profits as he is now arguing.

IdiotMachine posted...

Assuming benefit costs are the same, thats now $125k in straight salary for driving and delivering boxes. Wild.

Think how many boxes a person would have to deliver to be worth that salary. Sounds like a shit ton of work.

Also the including benefits thing is a neat trick. According to my company my annual benefits are "worth" $33,549.

BewmHedshot posted...

According to my company my annual benefits are "worth" $33,549.

Is it really though?

I bet my company says my healthcare is worth alot when in truth I hate it and it is alot worse than it was 5 years ago.

We really out here getting mad cause the people that work 12 hour days delivering packages have health insurance, sick and vacation days, and a pension.

In what dimension are we talking about here tc?

Atralis posted...

If you read into it a large portion of the benefits are going to things like healthcare and paid time off. If you are anew employee you are going to be getting a fraction of the PTO of the veteran employees and if you are young and healthy you aren't going to be benefiting from the massive amount of cash the company is spending on employee healthcare.

Pension too, I'd imagine. I'm not sure how well that's managed though as around 5 years ago they offered to buy a bunch of people out. I did the math and at a very modest 2% growth rate estimate, I came out ahead unless I lived to be like 90. I can also just take it all out of 401k at once now if I want at 65.

Either way, rough math on pension was $60years of service/month. That's a good bit of money for lifers.

WingsOfGood posted...

Is it really though?

I bet my company says my healthcare is worth alot when in truth I hate it and it is alot worse than it was 5 years ago.

Something like 80% of that amount is employer retirement fund contributions and Social Security / Medicare costs which are basically (hopefully, in the case of SS) worth their exact dollar amounts to future me.

WingsOfGood posted...

Is it really though?

I bet my company says my healthcare is worth alot when in truth I hate it and it is alot worse than it was 5 years ago.

The thing with healthcare is that some people are using $0 a year and some people are using millions. The company is given a figure by their big giant insurance provider stating how much in health benefits the plan is paying out each year and that is the $ amount they are telling the employees.