Current Events > C/D: Schools reporting to parents that their kid is gay/trans is abuse

(+) Yeah! (+)

The parents don't need to know unless the kid wants to tell them and it can put the kid in danger.

I could go either way on this. On the one hand, it seems pretty reasonable for schools to inform parents of anything their child does etc. that parents arent aware of. On the other hand, if you know its conservative dipshits who will beat the kid if you tell them and you still do it, yeah its abuse.

C. If the child isn't comfortable enough to tell the parent about it. There's probably a good reason for it and the school shouldn't make that child's home life worse.

PraetorXyn posted...

I could go either way on this. On the one hand, it seems pretty reasonable for schools to inform parents of anything their child does etc. that parents arent aware of. On the other hand, if you know its conservative dipshits who will beat the kid if you tell them and you still do it, yeah its abuse.

Lmao what

Nobody has any authority to out someone for a y reason

PraetorXyn posted...

I could go either way on this. On the one hand, it seems pretty reasonable for schools to inform parents of anything their child does etc. that parents arent aware of. On the other hand, if you know its conservative dipshits who will beat the kid if you tell them and you still do it, yeah its abuse.

If the child hasnt already told their parents that they are gay/trans, theres a reason for it. And its not the schools place to step in there.

C

If the school knows something that they believe will put the child's life in danger if the parents know, then CPS needs to be called and the child removed from the parents permanently. That's the only situation under which a school should have the right to withhold information about a person's child from them. In any other situation, it's gross overreach from the state.

PraetorXyn posted...

I could go either way on this. On the one hand, it seems pretty reasonable for schools to inform parents of anything their child does etc. that parents arent aware of. On the other hand, if you know its conservative dipshits who will beat the kid if you tell them and you still do it, yeah its abuse.

Why do the parents need to know? If they're good parents it won't effect they're parenting, if they're bad parents then fuck them.

HairyQueen posted...

If the child hasnt already told their parents that they are gay/trans, theres a reason for it. And its not the schools place to step in there.

I was more thinking generally as schools tell parents everything. But I have a hard time imagining a scenario where a child is in at home and willing to be out at school, where another child will almost certainly inform their parents if the school doesnt.

s0nicfan posted...

If the school knows something that they believe will put the child's life in danger if the parents know, then CPS needs to be called and the child removed from the parents permanently. That's the only situation under which a school should have the right to withhold information about a person's child from them. In any other situation, it's gross overreach from the state.

Except you never know and there's no reason the parents need to know.

So you're advocating for willingly putting kids in danger for no reason.

deny. not abuse but not right.

PraetorXyn posted...

I was more thinking generally as schools tell parents everything. But I have a hard time imagining a scenario where a child is in at home and willing to be out at school, where another child will almost certainly inform their parents if the school doesnt.

That's a thing that happens all the time, though.

PraetorXyn posted...

I could go either way on this. On the one hand, it seems pretty reasonable for schools to inform parents of anything their child does etc. that parents arent aware of. On the other hand, if you know its conservative dipshits who will beat the kid if you tell them and you still do it, yeah its abuse.

This is a very bad take for several reasons.

It certainly has the potential for abuse.

Common sense dictates that schools should not inform parents without the child's consent, but sadly kids don't have a lot of rights...

and i thought schools were supposed to educate kids and not butting into their personal lives like that as if it were their business...

RuneterranSnap posted...

Except you never know and there's no reason the parents need to know.

So you're advocating for willingly putting kids in danger for no reason.

I'm advocating for an issue-agnostic line to try and define when it is and isn't acceptable for a school to withhold information about a child from their parents. That line is protecting them from harm. If a child feels they will be in danger if the school tells them, I already said what should be done.

s0nicfan posted...

In any other situation, it's gross overreach from the state.

To be clear, the option where teachers/administrators don't do anything is overreach?

RuneterranSnap posted...

That's a thing that happens all the time, though.

Im not denying it, but I have no experience with it and it makes no sense to me, as like I said, willingly being out at school is inevitably going to lead to their parents finding out and thus the thing happening at home that they were afraid of in the first place.

Never out a trans person, its not your business whatsoever and with trans kids it can put them in danger.

Anyone advocating for this has no idea what theyre talking about or simply doesnt care about the well being of the child.

PraetorXyn posted...

I was more thinking generally as schools tell parents everything. But I have a hard time imagining a scenario where a child is in at home and willing to be out at school, where another child will almost certainly inform their parents if the school doesnt.

Well another child might tell the kids parents anyway so the school should just go ahead and do it first sounds compelling to you?

Not necessarily.

C.

Not the school's place. Nobody gets to out someone to someone else. Zero reason for it.

s0nicfan posted...

I'm advocating for an issue-agnostic line to try and define when it is and isn't acceptable for a school to withhold information about a child from their parents. That line is protecting them from harm. If a child feels they will be in danger if the school tells them, I already said what should be done.

It's acceptable to withhold information when there's no need for it to be reported and it being reported potentially endangers the kid.

The default position should be to not report.

PraetorXyn posted...

Im not denying it, but I have no experience with it and it makes no sense to me, as like I said, willingly being out at school is inevitably going to lead to their parents finding out and thus the thing happening at home that they were afraid of in the first place.

And we're talking about kids in high school or middle school who don't always make the best choices. Besides, it's not always they're fully out - they could be out to their friends but not their family.

RuneterranSnap posted...

it can put the kid in danger.

that's the whole point

The interests of students and the interests of parents are separate things, and I believe that schools should primarily serve the former.

Antifar posted...

To be clear, the option where teachers/administrators don't do anything is overreach?

Depends: If the parents ask the school about it, would you be in support of them lying to the parents? Doing nothing isn't overreach as long as no steps are taken to actively withhold information from a parent, but my guess is you're arguing on a technicality and your position is the school has the right to witthhold any information about a child from their parents for any reason.

PraetorXyn posted...

Im not denying it, but I have no experience with it and it makes no sense to me, as like I said, willingly being out at school is inevitably going to lead to their parents finding out and thus the thing happening at home that they were afraid of in the first place.

As you said, you have no experience with it, so your assumption that it will inevitably lead to anything is not correct.

Yes.

If the child hasn't told them, it is very likely for a (good) reason.

Kids will die over this

Chicken posted...

that's the whole point

Yup that's why if I were ever to have an official out my kid to me, I'd see to it they never work a day again

The well being of the child comes first and foremost, and it is their decision alone if and when to share such information.

RuneterranSnap posted...

It's acceptable to withhold information when there's no need for it to be reported and it being reported potentially endangers the kid.

The default position should be to not report.

And then if the parents ask the school?

edit: but to point out, I think we're in agreement that if reporting it endangers the child the school shouldn't report it. I just take it a step further and say that if you truly, legitimately believe the child would be in physical danger if the parents know, then you need to remove that child from the household rather than playing this dangerous game of "We're just all going to pretend this never happened".

s0nicfan posted...

And then if the parents ask the school?

Then lie or refuse to answer. They don't need to know.

s0nicfan posted...

I'm advocating for an issue-agnostic line to try and define when it is and isn't acceptable for a school to withhold information about a child from their parents. That line is protecting them from harm. If a child feels they will be in danger if the school tells them, I already said what should be done.

Dangerous and ignorant of the reality trans people deal with.

s0nicfan posted...

And then if the parents ask the school?

"I'm sorry, that's not something appropriate for me to discuss with you."

RuneterranSnap posted...

Then lie or refuse to answer. They don't need to know.

See, and that differs from parent to parent. If I didn't know my child was trans I'd like to know so I could talk to them about it. Because there are some kids that think they might be trans because they are a tomboy or a boy that likes to be prettier than the other boys.

The main thing is that if you know, you can talk to them or even make them more comfy with themselves and help them find out more about themselves. Not to mention, having more support is nice.

Medussa posted...

"I'm sorry, that's not something appropriate for me to discuss with you."

Yeah, citing general policy is sufficient and appropriate.

s0nicfan posted...

I'm advocating for an issue-agnostic line to try and define when it is and isn't acceptable for a school to withhold information about a child from their parent

Why are we trying to be issue-agnostic? I think the impulse to strip context from the situation is just a kind of debate nerdery. I think teachers can be trusted to apply their best judgements rather than being bound to hard and fast rules governing any and all situations.

s0nicfan posted...

And then if the parents ask the school?

edit: but to point out, I think we're in agreement that if reporting it endangers the child the school shouldn't report it. I just take it a step further and say that if you truly, legitimately believe the child would be in physical danger if the parents know, then you need to remove that child from the household rather than playing this dangerous game of "We're just all going to pretend this never happened".

The thing is, theres often no way for a teacher to know how the parents would react. But because the possible risks far outweigh any possible benefits of telling the parents, its much safer for the student if the teacher does not disclose it.

If the parents have good intentions, why would they be so determined to go behind their kids back and ask the teacher about it?

Physical abuse is not the only abuse that can occur in a household.

s0nicfan posted...

And then if the parents ask the school?

edit: but to point out, I think we're in agreement that if reporting it endangers the child the school shouldn't report it. I just take it a step further and say that if you truly, legitimately believe the child would be in physical danger if the parents know, then you need to remove that child from the household rather than playing this dangerous game of "We're just all going to pretend this never happened".

Theyre not in a position to make that sort of judgement call. You never out a trans person, period.

CSCA33 posted...

Dangerous and ignorant of the reality trans people deal with.

Explain to me how it's dangerous enough that the school has a right to hide it, but not dangerous enough for CPS to get involved? This fucked up game of "well theyll hurt you if they find out, but rather than remove you from this dangerous environment instead we'll just hide it from them and hope it all works out" seems worse. If the parents are a threat, my very first post said the school should protect the kids. You just need to explain what is dangerous and ignorant about the other half of my point, which is "if the parents aren't a threat they have a right to know."

s0nicfan posted...

Explain to me how it's dangerous enough that the school has a right to hide it, but not dangerous enough for CPS to get involved? This fucked up game of "well theyll hurt you if they find out, but rather than remove you from this dangerous environment instead we'll just hide it from them and hope it all works out" seems worse. If the parents are a threat, my very first post said the school should protect the kids. You just need to explain what is dangerous and ignorant about the other half of my point, which is "if the parents aren't a threat they have a right to know."

Yeah, that's kind of where I am with it. Because not telling could result in you having "kids are bullying your kid" and then the school actively refusing to tell you why this is happening to "protect the children." It seems incredibly stupid to assume that a child's parents would abuse the child because they found out their child is gay or trans.

ArtiRock posted...

See, and that differs from parent to parent. If I didn't know my child was trans I'd like to know so I could talk to them about it. Because there are some kids that think they might be trans because they are a tomboy or a boy that likes to be prettier than the other boys.

Wow a lot to unpack here but the clear message is I hope you never have children.

s0nicfan posted...

Explain to me how it's dangerous enough that the school has a right to hide it, but not dangerous enough for CPS to get involved? This fucked up game of "well theyll hurt you if they find out, but rather than remove you from this dangerous environment instead we'll just hide it from them and hope it all works out" seems worse. If the parents are a threat, my very first post said the school should protect the kids. You just need to explain what is dangerous and ignorant about the other half of my point, which is "if the parents aren't a threat they have a right to know."

This better states my position. I just dont see a reason to hide it unless you have reason to suspect it would cause harm, and in that case, you should probably be doing something about it.

ArtiRock posted...

See, and that differs from parent to parent. If I didn't know my child was trans I'd like to know so I could talk to them about it. Because there are some kids that think they might be trans because they are a tomboy or a boy that likes to be prettier than the other boys.

The main thing is that if you know, you can talk to them or even make them more comfy with themselves and help them find out more about themselves. Not to mention, having more support is nice.

Thats great, and it would be wonderful if all parents were like that. In your case, maybe you could make sure your kid knows that youre an accepting person about gender/sexuality. Why not just have a conversation with them where you disclose that if theres ever anything on their mind, they can be open with you because youre goal is to love and support them always. Then your kid can tell you when theyre ready.

Being outed by someone else before a person is ready isnt the best way. Often, theyre still working through it themselves.

ArtiRock posted...

Yeah, that's kind of where I am with it. Because not telling could result in you having "kids are bullying your kid" and then the school actively refusing to tell you why this is happening to "protect the children." It seems incredibly stupid to assume that a child's parents would abuse the child because they found out their child is gay or trans.

You should expand your horizons then.

Where I come from, if you had been outed as trans you're either getting sent to a religious gay therapy or whatever camp, getting disowned, or shot for being hellspawn

s0nicfan posted...

Explain to me how it's dangerous enough that the school has a right to hide it, but not dangerous enough for CPS to get involved?

For one schools don't know if the parents are a danger or not, thus why we urge not to report. For two, CPS is garbage and doesn't protect children near as much as you think.

ArtiRock posted...

Yeah, that's kind of where I am with it. Because not telling could result in you having "kids are bullying your kid" and then the school actively refusing to tell you why this is happening to "protect the children." It seems incredibly stupid to assume that a child's parents would abuse the child because they found out their child is gay or trans.

Shouldn't that be something for the kids to decide if they want to tell their parents or not? The kids know their parents attitude toward things. If you want your kids to be open with you, you have to show that you're open minded or of course they won't come out to you.

HairyQueen posted...

Thats great, and it would be wonderful if all parents were like that. In your case, maybe you could make sure your kid knows that youre an accepting person about gender/sexuality. Why not just have a conversation with them where you disclose that if theres ever anything on their mind, they can be open with you because youre goal is to love and support them always. Then your kid can tell you when theyre ready.

Being outed by someone else before a person is ready isnt the best way. Often, theyre still working through it themselves.

I'm bi, of course I would. I would have loved to be able to talk to someone easier about "why do I like boys and girls?" I can understand that you can prematurely talk about it, but I feel it can come across as meanspirited to a child that IS straight if you say something along those lines and they just don't fit into societal heterosexual norms. It's about as uncomfortable as "had a problem with your girlfriend?" Style if talk to a gay man. It's trying to be helpful but it ends up making things worse.

In this case, it's not even outing them though. It's simply informing parents do they can better equip themselves in some cases. That's why I put "not necessarily" as s response, because that's entirely dependent on the situation.

wackyteen posted...

You should expand your horizons then.

Where I come from, if you had been outed as trans you're either getting sent to a religious gay therapy or whatever camp, getting disowned, or shot for being hellspawn

And that's fine, but that doesn't mean everyone is like that.

Dancedreamer posted...

Shouldn't that be something for the kids to decide if they want to tell their parents or not? The kids know their parents attitude toward things. If you want your kids to be open with you, you have to show that you're open minded or of course they won't come out to you.

Because kids don't tell their parents about a lot of things for whatever reason. Including but not limited to things that they shouldn't be doing like hanging out with bad crowds or doing activities their parents wouldn't approve of.

In most cases, I don't think it's necessary, but as I stated before, I don't think it's necessarily abuse.