Current Events > Trans cyclist Austin Killips wins women's race. Transphobic outrage ensues

(+) Yeah! (+)

CARRRNE_ASADA posted...

It keeps happening though. Whats gonna happen 20 years from now when have enough data to have a conclusion? What if the data points to the trans athlete having a higher win rate than cis?

CE has gotta learn that not everybody that raises a flag about this is a transphobe. I'm all for trans rights, but this is a certain issue that lends itself to possible advantages and the jury is still out on this matter.

We *have* a conclusion: that being trans has effectively no value when it comes to sports win-rates. Trans people have existed for far longer than they have caused the MAGA crowd to have a crying meltdown, there have been studies for decades. So far they've basically all agreed that there isn't enough of a correlation to actually say being trans actually matters, with outliers being far more on the "being trans doesn't matter" side. Heck, the closest thing to a "being trans is an advantage" that comes to mind was a study that found that it did matter because of the massively inflated budget given to male sports meaning that the people involved in the study going from M->F had a huge advantage due to the better overall training regimen prior to transitioning. And while that is certainly a problem, it's not exactly one has anything to do with people being trans.

So no, the jury has hard ruled in on this. Just because you dislike the results and are easily swayed by media bias does not change them.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I'm talking about the athletic trans women v. the athletic women who were born that way. Not all, but the majority have a vast muscular difference. Reminds me of the girl I had to wrestle in school but wrestling wasn't a gender segregated sport. I don't understand where the misunderstanding is. If anything, the rules need to be updated. I'm all for the conversation but you just seem mad/ aggravated.

KrayzieBonezz posted...

Not all, but the majority have a vast muscular difference.

How many exactly.

KrayzieBonezz posted...

Reminds me of the girl I had to wrestle in school but wrestling wasn't a gender segregated sport.

So it reminds you of you (cis man) wrestling a cis woman.

And of course this isn't addressing "athletic women who were born that way". Do you have something against the word "cis"?

Do transmen dominate sports that they join as well?

Priere posted...

Do transmen dominate sports that they join as well?

Conservatives don't believe in them so no one cares.

Intense cardio like marathon cycling absolutely destroys testosterone, as I've found out. Unless this person has been using EPO, or some other form of PEDs, I see no issues with this. Good for them. You go girl.

Priere posted...

Do transmen dominate sports that they join as well?

As well as? Like who else is dominating sports here?

CyricZ posted...

And of course this isn't addressing "athletic women who were born that way". Do you have something against the word "cis"?

I don't even know the word. It's not part of my everyday vernacular. Again not hating, just stating.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Educate me captain. I'm primarily going off local newscast and yahoo/msn articles and everything I've seen so far is there being a drastic difference in size. Like when a trans woman fights a (cis?) woman is that still a non issue?

https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf

FYI for those that actually want to know where science sits on this, that above "study" has already been proven to be filled with outright lies:
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/academics-pen-trans-women-in-sport-report-rebuttal

In their paper, the Academics claim that the CCES review is methodologically flawed and accuse the reports authors of incorrect reporting of scientific data.

The criticisms can be summarised as either being simply wrong, grossly misrepresenting the actual work, or being straw man arguments, the paper states.

Here's the full report:
https://idrottsforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/devineetal221129.pdf

For example, the anonymous authors claim evidence showing that male advantage is lost after one year of testosterone suppression, while the two papers cited in support of this statement explicitly argue that male advantage is retained well beyond one year of suppression. In fact, a recent cross-sectional study (Mobilia Alvares et al, 2022) measuring the performance of transwomen suggests that the advantage may be maintained after 14 years of testosterone suppression.

To explicitly confirm who is telling the truth, here's the CCES text:

The limited available evidence examining the effect of testosterone suppression as it directly affects trans womens athletic performance showed no athletic advantage exists after one year of testosterone suppression (Harper, 2015; Roberts et al., 2020; Harper, 2020);

And here's what the Harper study says:
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865?fbclid=IwAR0Mx3LwvYROTkOQGCwRv_qZgNJNt26EfG_V8miCYRYKiGjiOU1rZa1nGaI

Results Twenty-four studies were identified and reviewed. Transwomen experienced significant decreases in all parameters measured, with different time courses noted. After 4 months of hormone therapy, transwomen have Hgb/HCT levels equivalent to those of cisgender women. After 12 months of hormone therapy, significant decreases in measures of strength, LBM and muscle area are observed. The effects of longer duration therapy (36 months) in eliciting further decrements in these measures are unclear due to paucity of data. Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy.

Conclusion In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy.

There are plenty of studies that DO show that transwomen retain advantages even after years of HRT, but the CCES study didn't count them because they didn't use "elite athletes" so apparently that science doesn't count.

Want to discuss this more but dont want to get moderated for trying to ask questions again.

FLAMING_EVIL_HOMER posted...

Want to discuss this more but dont want to get moderated for trying to ask questions again.

Maybe you should consider that your questions fucking suck

s0nicfan posted...

Results Twenty-four studies were identified and reviewed. Transwomen experienced significant decreases in all parameters measured, with different time courses noted. After 4 months of hormone therapy, transwomen have Hgb/HCT levels equivalent to those of cisgender women. After 12 months of hormone therapy, significant decreases in measures of strength, LBM and muscle area are observed. The effects of longer duration therapy (36 months) in eliciting further decrements in these measures are unclear due to paucity of data. Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy.

Conclusion In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy.

using your quote and bolding different things shows that it's not so cut and dry

Priere posted...

Do transmen dominate sports that they join as well?

nah, there's a gap in logic that nobody wants to touch.

but wouldn't it be something if a transman joined a competitive sport for a few years and then went on to win a big cash prize(like the cyclist in OP)?

or if she were just a mediocre competitor before transitioning and then rose to the top after transition and competing with cis men and in both situations people from all over would call for his ban?

AsucaHayashi posted...

but wouldn't it be something if a transman joined a competitive sport for a few years and then went on to win a big cash prize(like the cyclist in OP)?

You don't have to pretend like it isn't a thing. You can just say "Chris Mosier" or whatever and be done with it. It's not like there isn't a plethora of trans men that haven't been extremely successful, it's all about the whiny, petulant babies being able to get over their sexism/transphobia for the single second it would take for them to find that both transitioning sides are roughly similar in penetration metrics when it comes to doing well.

ellis123 posted...

You can just say "Chris Mosier" or whatever and be done with it.

i had no idea who this is.

his achievements according to wiki:

Mosier made Team USA for the first time in sprint duathlon in 2015.[28] He made the long course duathlon team in 2016 at a race in Cary, North Carolina.[29] Mosier made his fourth Team USA team in long course duathlon in the 2017 National Championship, where he placed 2nd in his 35-39 age group and finished 50th overall with a time of 02:40:27.[30]

In 2016, Mosier earned All-American honors in duathlon.[31]
In 2019, Mosier won two National Championships in Race Walking. Winning 15th place for 30K with a time of 3:14:25 and 8th place for 50k with a time of 5:53:47 [32]

In 2020, Mosier competed in the US Olympic Team Trials for the 50k Racewalk event; however, he was unable to finish the race due to injury.[33] As such, he became the first known transgender athlete to compete in the Olympic Trials in the gender with which they identify.[34]

i don't see any first places. i don't know much about american sports so maybe all-american honor is one?

It's not like there isn't a plethora of trans men that haven't been extremely successful

i'm sure there are many metrics for "extremely successful" but are they the same as discussed in this topic?

s0nicfan posted...

And here's what the Harper study says:
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865?fbclid=IwAR0Mx3LwvYROTkOQGCwRv_qZgNJNt26EfG_V8miCYRYKiGjiOU1rZa1nGaI

Couple of important things to note here, if you're wanting to present this in the most unbiased way possible:

Their discussion states:

However, several limitations are noted. Although the data we present are meaningful, the effects of GAHT on these parameters, or indeed athletic performance in transgender people who engage in training and competition, remain unknown. The levels of physical activity of the transwomen compared with cisgender women in the studies were not reported.

And they also acknowledge:

Based on the variability in drug regimens used, there is substantial heterogeneity in the hormone levels achieved. Although the transwomen in most of the studies achieved testosterone levels within the reference range for cisgender women, there were five studies38 40 47 49 51 in which the transfemales had post-GAHT testosterone values greater than 5 nmol/L.

So it's important to note that in some cases in the included data, participants were measured that have testosterone above what most endocrinologists shoot for when monitoring blood levels (< 50ng/dl, about 1.75nmol/L), or twice what's listed here:

https://usacycling.org/about-us/governance/transgender-athletes-policy

The athlete must demonstrate that their total testosterone level in serum has been below 2.5 nmol/L for a period of at least 24 months.

Just some important context of the study, and a caution against using one source to make definitive statements

AsucaHayashi posted...

i don't see any first places. i don't know much about american sports so maybe all-american honor is one?

One is not invited to be on the International stage without being pretty successful. And the All-American was from them being ranked #14 in the US at the time, of which is somewhat substantially higher than Kilips' complete lack in ranking. Hopefully Kilips will get a fruitful career and thus be ranked internationally like Mosier, but as it stands Mosier performing on the International stage is a lot bigger than a national placement in a single national tournament.

AsucaHayashi posted...

i'm sure there are many metrics for "extremely successful" but are they the same as discussed in this topic?

Yes? Why wouldn't they be?