Current Events > So, P4 is a biiit more tedious than I remember it being ***spoilers***

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's primarily because the dungeons are a horrible slog, and the story is kind of all over the place. I also think it goes on far longer than it needs to (did we really need two or three "it's the killer" fakeouts?). And Marie is fucking horrible, as is her dungeon, but you have to put up with both if you want the best ending possible.

I also don't recall Personas having such limited movesets. Near the endgame, I ended up with Personas that were all way too similar to each other.

Super_Slash posted...

I also don't recall Personas having such limited movesets. Near the endgame, I ended up with Personas that were all way too similar to each other.

It's kind of the same in P5 no? Endgame is Yoshitsune, Alice and a strong magic Persona.

LordFarquad1312 posted...

It's kind of the same in P5 no? Endgame is Yoshitsune, Alice and a strong magic Persona.

Don't remember, but you're probably right.

Oh, another thing about P4 is that Yosuke is a terrible character with almost no redeeming qualities, yet he gets more screentime than any other character.

LordFarquad1312 posted...

It's kind of the same in P5 no? Endgame is Yoshitsune, Alice and a strong magic Persona.

P5 has a wider amount of weaknesses to exploit/protect against. I will say that yeah you will have one persona usually that you coast with through the dungeon but unless you fuse to explicitly get a bunch of useful skills on one persona, you're more likely to have some that you aren't holding onto for the confidant bonuses, and instead to use against specific enemy groups

Super_Slash posted...

Oh, another thing about P4 is that Yosuke is a terrible character with almost no redeeming qualities, yet he gets more screentime than any other character.

He's very much in the closet, but at least he's not Teddy

I dont want to hear shit about length, I beat golden in 40 hours and Royal in like 95.

Makeveli_lives posted...

I dont want to hear shit about length, I beat golden in 40 hours and Royal in like 95.

The problem is Persona 4 feels like it's padded out just to make it longer. They made this even worse with Golden (but I LOVE Snowflakes, and the winter theme of January in general). The specific amount of hours isn't the issue.

SSJKirby posted...

He's very much in the closet, but at least he's not Teddy

He's not Teddie. He's worse.

Left4Doge posted...

P5 has a wider amount of weaknesses to exploit/protect against. I will say that yeah you will have one persona usually that you coast with through the dungeon but unless you fuse to explicitly get a bunch of useful skills on one persona, you're more likely to have some that you aren't holding onto for the confidant bonuses, and instead to use against specific enemy groups

End game Yoshitsune can deal with everything in P4 and P5. P5R comes with DLC so you just make InO and use Myriad Truths on everything.

Holy_Cloud105 posted...

End game Yoshitsune can deal with everything in P4 and P5. P5R comes with DLC so you just make InO and use Myriad Truths on everything.

Yoshitsune deals with everything not immune to physical. Alice deals with pretty much every mob encounter. Make a persona with most if not every element available if you want to exploit weaknesses.

Come NG+, make Satanael if you just wanna flex.

I guess the only thing that "balances" them is that you need a pretty high confidant rank to make them. But if you know which ones to prioritize or it's not your first time playing and you can optimize your time, this is a non-issue.

I just played it for the first time and rather enjoyed it, but I did play it on the Deck so it was very much pick up and put down for a couple months. I couldn't really play it on the big screen- probably for the pacing reasons.

SSJKirby posted...

He's very much in the closet, but at least he's not Teddy

Also funny you should say that; Yosuke was supposed to be gay or swing both ways at one point in development. There are unused voice clips in the PS2 version where you could romance him.

Tbh I wouldn't play that again

LordFarquad1312 posted...

It's kind of the same in P5 no? Endgame is Yoshitsune, Alice and a strong magic Persona.

Is it? Isn't Thor the strongest persona in p4? I remember using him exclusively. Especially after giving him stat boosting cards in p4g. He didn't seem that strong in p5 though I went in a different direction with my personas there.

Lol tc I played p4g like 5 years ago and slog is pretty much exactly how I described it then too. Weirdly enough vanilla p4 didn't feel that way 10+ years ago. But playing p4g reminded me how much I disliked the disappointment of a story, the Scooby-doo mystery just being some nonsense and then you factor in the Marie garbage and it's just unpleasant. The extra month added was the first time I was bored out of my mind and just going straight to bed so that the time would pass quicker.

I didn't feel that way with P5 the way some other posters did.

saspa posted...

Is it? Isn't Thor the strongest persona in p4? I remember using him exclusively. Especially after giving him stat boosting cards in p4g. He didn't seem that strong in p5 though I went in a different direction with my personas there.

Lol tc I played p4g like 5 years ago and slog is pretty much exactly how I described it then too. Weirdly enough vanilla p4 didn't feel that way 10+ years ago. But playing p4g reminded me how much I disliked the disappointment of a story, the Scooby-doo mystery just being some nonsense and then you factor in the Marie garbage and it's just unpleasant. The extra month added was the first time I was bored out of my mind and just going straight to bed so that the time would pass quicker.

I didn't feel that way with P5 the way some other posters did.

It is funny how much standards can change over one game. It makes me really seriously appreciate P5 a lot more than I used to.

The one thing P4 has an edge on though, is humor. The writers definitely nailed that, while P3 and 5 are perhaps a bit *too* serious.

And I don't think Thor is the strongest. He's just the only Persona that gets Thunder Reign, the "severe" lightning spell (like how Surt gets Ragnarok). Pretty sure the strongest is Yoshitsune with Debilitate.

P3 has the best story, P4 has the best scooby gang/friendship interactions, and P5 has the most polished and best gameplay, which is logical as they had 10 years to work out the kinks of the s-link system p3 introduced.

Anyone remember hiimdaisy's p4 comic? Now that was hilarious to an already funny game.

It also sucks and is the worst in the series

4 is less of a slog than 5. Everything after the first dungeon sucks.

saspa posted...

Anyone remember hiimdaisy's p4 comic? Now that was hilarious to an already funny game.

I have TO PEE!

YUKIKOSMISSINGYUKIKOSMISSINGYUKIKOSMISSING!!! oh hi yukiko =3

Irony posted...

4 is less of a slog than 5.

No it's not. Cope harder

I found P4 to be a garbled mess. There was, potentially, half a good idea in there, but by the time the game attempted to get serious, it did so in what I found to be an overbearing, ham-handed, and clumsy fashion. P4's "theme," such as it exists, was buried so deep in the "narrative" (and I use that word loosely, as I was much more frustrated by P4's pacing than P3's, as P4 had a lot of "nothing/are all of you IDIOTS" happen for far too long) that it felt tacked on. The first third of the game doesn't support the ending and vice versa. Which is why I put quotes on theme: P4's biggest weakness is its internal inconsistency.

P3 had the advantage of coming after a long break in the Persona series, console upgrades, and a clear vision. Before social links were a divisive element in SMT fandom at large, they were an attempt at refining demon negotiation in a way that served the narrative of P3 and enhanced its themes. Everything about P3 -- the "reversed" position your social links start in to their growth to the "upright," the mythology used in establishing the cast, the first scenes (the very start, the first Dark Hour with the man turning into a Shadow, and the first summoning sequence) all the way to the end -- were lean, on-point, and engaging. There's nothing out of place in P3. The narrative is simple, but the game's themes are explored beautifully -- and consistently. Everything builds toward the ending, which is ... devastating, cathartic, and perfect. The foreshadowing wasn't dropped. The themes that had held the game together were fully brought to the surface and developed in the final moments, leaving the player to find their own answers. There was no "yes or no," "x good, y bad" -- the ending to P3 gives the player some credit as a thinking creature and allows said player to answer the questions in their own way.

P4's narrative is much messier, its cast divisive, and its themes... I can deal with the more "hitting the player on the head with the idea" moments in P3 because they're fewer and more organic -- they fold into the story. The ending is well-earned. P4's decision to get serious comes too late, feels oppressive and unnatural, and isn't handled nearly as well or with any subtlety. There's catharsis in having players contemplate mortality. There's much less catharsis in an ending of literal deus ex machina that follows the exact same script as P3's -- that trick only works once if you want emotional payoff vs. "uh, I've seen this before."

P4 had some interesting ideas, but they never cohered and were buried until the abysmal final act. P2 and P3 have flaws and, depending on your views, less fulfilling gameplay, but they were never condescending or haphazard. P4 treated me like an idiot, which is not something I expect from a MegaTen game -- or didn't, when I first played P4. (I do now, alas, with post-P4 titles. Not all the fault is P4's, but I'd say the MegaTen series really went off the rails there and hasn't quite recovered.)

An idea, a theme -- the existence of such doesn't redeem a work. P4 is the Philosophy 101 student or bad art house movie that pontificates about the existence of God and relative morality. If P4 had dropped its aspirations of seriousness, it might have been a better game. Shoving "meaning" into a game that breaks the realistic suspension of disbelief meter doesn't make it thought-provoking. That's what happens in any creative writing seminar in an attempt to pass off a piece as "literary" -- and it's one of the first tricks beaten out of any writer.

Super_Slash posted...

I have TO PEE!

YUKIKOSMISSINGYUKIKOSMISSINGYUKIKOSMISSING!!! oh hi yukiko =3

SHUT UP, it's an endearing character trait >__<

BignutzisBack posted...

I found P4 to be a garbled mess. There was, potentially, half a good idea in there, but by the time the game attempted to get serious, it did so in what I found to be an overbearing, ham-handed, and clumsy fashion. P4's "theme," such as it exists, was buried so deep in the "narrative" (and I use that word loosely, as I was much more frustrated by P4's pacing than P3's, as P4 had a lot of "nothing/are all of you IDIOTS" happen for far too long) that it felt tacked on. The first third of the game doesn't support the ending and vice versa. Which is why I put quotes on theme: P4's biggest weakness is its internal inconsistency.

P3 had the advantage of coming after a long break in the Persona series, console upgrades, and a clear vision. Before social links were a divisive element in SMT fandom at large, they were an attempt at refining demon negotiation in a way that served the narrative of P3 and enhanced its themes. Everything about P3 -- the "reversed" position your social links start in to their growth to the "upright," the mythology used in establishing the cast, the first scenes (the very start, the first Dark Hour with the man turning into a Shadow, and the first summoning sequence) all the way to the end -- were lean, on-point, and engaging. There's nothing out of place in P3. The narrative is simple, but the game's themes are explored beautifully -- and consistently. Everything builds toward the ending, which is ... devastating, cathartic, and perfect. The foreshadowing wasn't dropped. The themes that had held the game together were fully brought to the surface and developed in the final moments, leaving the player to find their own answers. There was no "yes or no," "x good, y bad" -- the ending to P3 gives the player some credit as a thinking creature and allows said player to answer the questions in their own way.

P4's narrative is much messier, its cast divisive, and its themes... I can deal with the more "hitting the player on the head with the idea" moments in P3 because they're fewer and more organic -- they fold into the story. The ending is well-earned. P4's decision to get serious comes too late, feels oppressive and unnatural, and isn't handled nearly as well or with any subtlety. There's catharsis in having players contemplate mortality. There's much less catharsis in an ending of literal deus ex machina that follows the exact same script as P3's -- that trick only works once if you want emotional payoff vs. "uh, I've seen this before."

P4 had some interesting ideas, but they never cohered and were buried until the abysmal final act. P2 and P3 have flaws and, depending on your views, less fulfilling gameplay, but they were never condescending or haphazard. P4 treated me like an idiot, which is not something I expect from a MegaTen game -- or didn't, when I first played P4. (I do now, alas, with post-P4 titles. Not all the fault is P4's, but I'd say the MegaTen series really went off the rails there and hasn't quite recovered.)

An idea, a theme -- the existence of such doesn't redeem a work. P4 is the Philosophy 101 student or bad art house movie that pontificates about the existence of God and relative morality. If P4 had dropped its aspirations of seriousness, it might have been a better game. Shoving "meaning" into a game that breaks the realistic suspension of disbelief meter doesn't make it thought-provoking. That's what happens in any creative writing seminar in an attempt to pass off a piece as "literary" -- and it's one of the first tricks beaten out of any writer.

My problem with P4 is the inconsistency which you already mentioned. The reveal of the true killer feels half-assed, there's no in-game clues to it whatsoever, and Adachi's motives do not AT ALL match up with what little was shown up to that point. It's like the story was all over the place and they just made shit up on the spot with each new story beat. The hospital scene with Namatame when everyone thinks he's the killer is very tense and got my blood flowing the first time around. P4 didn't have enough moments like that. And on my current playthrough I can't help but notice that the dialogue can be very drawn out. Some scenes just go on for too long while every single character has to say *something* in the most drawn out manner possible, along with overused character "traits" like Teddie talking about scoring or hitting on the women in some other way, Yosuke being an asshole to everyone, etc

I loved the final arc though. The Izanami twist was ridiculously well done and about the only part of the story that is completely 100% consistent.