Current Events > "Russia is just defending itself"

(+) Yeah! (+)

scar_the_1 posted...

I don't think that's a very interesting or even verifiable statement. Like how would you even measure something like that? But as citizens of one state or another, the most relevant part isn't "who's the most responsible", but rather "what role does my country play in this?" IMO. Joel is American (afaik) so it stands to reason that he'd be critical of and unhappy with his leadership's contribution in this mess. And hey! Maybe he's not a fan of Putin either. You could always ask.

He won't be able to answer. He's warned for saying it's NATO fault and plays a role in Russia invading Ukraine.

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Oh ok well criticizing the allied neighbor superpower is still relevant! And not necessarily an endorsement of other imperialist superpowers

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I think this dude scar gonna give joel more benefit of the doubt

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I don't really care. In this topic, I agree with his point that the US shares responsibility for the geopolitical situation. That doesn't mean I don't think Putin is the aggressor, or that Putin isn't to blame for his actions. Both can be true. And that's all that's been said ITT

scar_the_1 posted...

I don't really care. In this topic, I agree with his point that the US shares responsibility for the geopolitical situation. That doesn't mean I don't think Putin is the aggressor, or that Putin isn't to blame for his actions. Both can be true. And that's all that's been said ITT

Hopefully you share being warned as well.

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Not really sure we'll tread new ground here, so is there a point? I do think NATO encroachment plays a part. US involvement in the Maidan circus also does. Yeah, Putin violated the Budapest memorandum in what? 2014? Correct me if I'm wrong. There are a lot of these things. Ukraine and Georgia declared their intention to join NATO in 2008 at the Bucharest summit. Putin invaded Georgia the same year, which for the record was obviously also wrong! And his fault! I don't blame either Georgia or Ukraine for wanting to join NATO. I do think the US has been playing along rather than try to pacify things. I don't think that's unfair. But that takes nothing away from Putin.

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Fair! I don't think it changes my point very much. I never held Putin as the wronged, innocent party here. I think there's essentially been escalations from either side for a long time. Neither has been interested in backing down. For what they judge to be profitable reasons.

But again, no matter who provoked more, one party illegally invaded a neighboring country. That's still the main crime committed here.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/6/2/AAcJoVAAECj2.jpg

Yeah, Russia is solely responsible

Gladius_ posted...

Already false. They broke the Budapest memorandum first. Why would Russia be at war with Ukraine? Because they want to claim it as their own as they don't see it as a sovereign nation.

Your logic for it being false makes no sense. It's within the NATO guidelines for the US to support and bootstrap a NATO ally. Heck, when Biden won, Ukraine started moving troops and arming themselves at the border of Russia. Before Russia officially declared war, Ukraine had 100K troops amassed in position.

Again, I implore you to look at Lex Friedman's interview with Oliver Stone. Their relationship is more complicated than you realize. You're missing a significant piece of the story as evident by you concluding Russia wants to be at war with Ukraine because they want to claim it as their own.

Heck, when Biden won, Ukraine started moving troops and arming themselves at the border of Russia. Before Russia officially declared war, Ukraine had 100K troops amassed in position.

so you're blaming this on Biden and not the fact that Russia has already annexed territory in the area so maybe they were expecting an attack?

metallica846 posted...

You mean to tell me that Ukraine had troops in country fighting back against a guerrilla war in Donbas fully funded by Moscow since 2014? Well thats just obviously super aggressive and asking to be invadedagain.and again.

Ah, you're aware of what happened in 2014? Good good. There's more to than story. Hence I keep pointing to Oliver Stone who did a documentary on the things that went down there. That story is absolutely critical to understanding the dynamics that lead to the current war we have now. Having an opinion of "Oh, it's Russia's fault! They're evil!" overly simplifies the nuance of this incredibly indepth story. There are a lot of pieces on the board who contributed to where we are now and you'll do a disservice if you don't acknowledge them.

It also goes to show how real life can be more fantastical and outrageous than what you'd accept in fictional stories.

metallica846 posted...

You just wrote a lot of words and somehow said nothing in the process.

My hands are tied. Gladius is omitting some critical information in the documentary. Watch it.

Gladius_ posted...

Nah. The documentary literally lies. Metallica can look it up if they want but it's not hard to fact check what is being said.

I implore them to do so. This is why I keep saying to take information from different sources across the spectrum. Even you are omitting stuff that makes the story more nuanced.

metallica846 posted...

I have Sad_Face tagged from past experience that I would not bother watching some documentary he insists is the perfect explanation for Russian genocide tbh.

You can't draw your own conclusions?

Gotta love the "do your own research!" people after they've been giving out their hot takes all day.

Sad_Face posted...

You can't draw your own conclusions?

Boy, if there ever was a response that told me not take anything you seriously after all of your other posts in this topic, that's the one.

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isn't that dude an actual pizzagater

NATO membership is an "encroachment" on russia only if you think russia is entitled to controlling the countries that join it

Frolex posted...

NATO membership is an "encroachment" on russia only if you think russia is entitled to controlling the countries that join it

Pretty much. People wouldn't be wanting to join NATO if Russia wasn't such a shitty fucking neighbor.

If there's one positive of this thread, it got tankies like averagejoel moderated.

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And they are both excellent potential members with a great deal to contribute in these times.

Sweden is developing some pretty sophisticated quiet submarines that will be a major pain in the ass for Russia.

And Finland has an excellent military that defeated Russia in the Russo-Finnish War very much like whats happening now.

divot1338 posted...

And Finland has an excellent military that defeated Russia in the Russo-Finnish War very much like whats happening now.

'defeat' is... not entirely wrong, but not right either. Finland gave them a good walloping, but in the end they still lost, unfortunately

also, if Putins main concern was "worried about NATO encroachment", he wouldn't have sent the Battalions that guard the NATO borders into the fighting in Ukraine.
but he did, and they were destroyed

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My guess is that Joel got taken out early, while Sad stuck around to post more dumb shit and have it stack up against him

ShineboxPhil posted...

If there's one positive of this thread, it got tankies like averagejoel moderated.

Not moderated enough tbh

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Putin be like:
https://youtube.com/shorts/8ZEnE4qfMzw?feature=share

A Conservative talking point is that Ukraine is somehow more evil than Russia. I don't get it either. And I'm a Conservative.

The-Apostle posted...

A Conservative talking point is that Ukraine is somehow more evil than Russia. I don't get it either. And I'm a Conservative.

Yeah that's pretty dumb. Ukraine could be the evilest country in the world, that doesn't mean they lose the right to defend themselves.