Current Events > It feels weird massacring the Silver Hand in Skyrim (Spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

The evil villanious group that plague the land by.... trying to hunt down monsterous warewolves?

I mean I guess the point is that not all warewolves are evil and they're being racist. But literally the first thing that happens in the questline when you become a warewolf is you become a frenzied monster and go ham on Whiterun.

You meet that nice guy in prison who is a warewolf and murdered a child because warewolves are monsters.

Every warewolf you meet in the wild is hostile and evil.

I mean not every vampire is evil either but the game doesn't treat the Dawnguard like they're thugs. They're portrayed as the good guys with a bunch of varied personalities and characters.

Then in the main Companion quest, after you kill all the Silver Hand. You all agree to stop being Warewolves anyway..... And then hunt down all that's left of the Silver Hand in radiant quests like you're Trevor Phillips killing The Damned in GTA5.

It feels lile there should be an option to join them halfway into the questline. At least the rival Fighters Guild faction in Oblivion had the plot excuse of being high off their ass and massacring innocent civilians that made them impossible to reason with.

No point of the spoiler warning now, lol

Bad_Mojo posted...

No point of the spoiler warning now, lol

Kinda is.

There is no "massacre" as such, they're just generic always hostile enemies in Skyrim. So it would be like saying "IT feels weird massacring spiders in Skyrim"

The spoilers are the specifics of the quests and the lore behind them

Maze_ posted...

But literally the first thing that happens in the questline when you become a warewolf is you become a frenzied monster and go ham on Whiterun.

That's completely optional. You're able to return to the Underforge and then run across the Whiterun fields if you choose to.

Runeboggle posted...

That's completely optional. You're able to return to the Underforge and then run across the Whiterun fields if you choose to.

Tell that to Sinding.

The Silver Hand are just bandits armed with silver swords. Try going to either of their hideouts before joining the Companions. They still attack you.

Just one less group of milk-drinkers to bother with.

the whole Companions questline is kinda weird. it's like oh okay this is the Fighter's Guild equivalent, sorta, that's cool, and oh wait what, we're also werewolves? okayyyyyy..........

ZeroX2010 posted...

The Silver Hand are just bandits armed with silver swords. Try going to either of their hideouts before joining the Companions. They still attack you.

I know but always felt weird to me. They even have generic bandit dialogue if you're sneaking around.

But I think that's Bethesda being lazy. It doesn't match their lore and you never see them robbing caravans or demanding your money in the street.

As I said, it feels weird.

Shotgunnova posted...

Just one less group of milk-drinkers to bother with.

The Silver hand accepts Nords.

Despite their racism against Warewolves, they're cool with all the other races.

DoesntMatter posted...

the whole Companions questline is kinda weird. it's like oh okay this is the Fighter's Guild equivalent, sorta, that's cool, and oh wait what, we're also werewolves? okayyyyyy..........

Don't forget it starts with them yelling at you for not helping you kill a giant that

1. 99/100 times they killed literally before you could even see it
2. They're literally the guild of people who are paid money to kill giant monsters.

Would be like if a doctor berated you for not performing open heart surgery before they did as you walk past a hospital bed.

They're a weird bunch

https://youtu.be/5yNJ11cW3I8?t=117

Silver Hand were the real heroes of Skyrim.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

It's super annoying that you literally have the option to side with them and cause a prison break

And then it's never mentioned again and the Forsworn are still hostile.

Probably the worst questline in the game. At least it's the shortest.

Ivynn posted...

Probably the worst questline in the game. At least it's the shortest.

From a plot perspective I think the Mage's Guild is worse
Certainly from an immersion perspective

From a gameplay perspective, they both kinda suck.

Maze_ posted...

From a plot perspective I think the Mage's Guild is worse
Certainly from an immersion perspective

From a gameplay perspective, they both kinda suck.

True. You shouldn't be able to access the Mage's Guild (or College of Winterfell, whatever) unless you have at least mid-level magic ability.

At least the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood has some stealth sections. Even if you can ultimately ignore them and smash your way through anyway.

All the Skyrim guild quest lines are terrible

VampireCoyote posted...

All the Skyrim guild quest lines are terrible

Dawnguard, Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood are good

ZeroX2010 posted...

The Silver Hand are just bandits armed with silver swords. Try going to either of their hideouts before joining the Companions. They still attack you.

This.

Much like the Companions, the implication is that while their origins may have been noble, what they've degenerated into in the current day is basically just a group of thugs. Sure, they hunt werewolves (which sounds like a good thing), but they also torture werewolves (which shows off their sadism), and we also know from our perspective that not all werewolves are evil (which they don't give a shit about).

They're not a heroic force for good. They're sport hunters with a grudge against the Companions.

At most, you can argue that both groups kind of suck. Which is kind of appropriate, since they were originally the same group.



Maze_ posted...

It's super annoying that you literally have the option to side with them and cause a prison break

And then it's never mentioned again and the Forsworn are still hostile.

My issue with that quest is that it's so easy to break, and it's some of the worst railroading in the game.

First time through the game, I get to the point where they want to arrest me. Hah hah, yeah, sure, like I'm going to let that happen. Dodge a few guards, run out of town. I'm come back in a few days after the heat has died down (like you can do in literally every other hold), or at the very least bribe the guards to pay off your fine (like you can do literally everyone else).

Nope, that doesn't work. So now Markarth is pretty much permanently off-limits unless you willing go turn yourself in for no realistic reason. It's ridiculously immersion breaking to expect a dragon-slaying machine who could slaughter literally everyone in the entire city to go "Yeah, guess I'll just go be a slave in the mines."

But yeah, sure, okay. So literally every guard in the city and everyone else all the way up to the Jarl are corrupt and part of the scheme. Guess I'll just finish the Civil War storyline for the Stormcloaks and upend everything. Surely the new administration will owe me a huge debt, so we'll clear this whole problem and can finish the quest more rationally. Hah hah, nope, get fucked.

So stupid.

Worst part is, if they'd spent more than 5 minutes thinking about alternatives and didn't just immediately leap to railroading the fuck out of you to get the outcome they wanted, it should have been easily possible to justify finding a way into the prison without having to be arrested. Which could have made the whole thing way more interesting. As is, I usually just skip this quest entirely whenever I play because I find the whole thing dumb and completely immersion-breaking.

TheHoldSteady posted...

Dawnguard, Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood are good

Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are passable, but not exceptional, especially when compared to Oblivion's questlines. Dawnguard really is pretty enjoyable, though, and not just because of those crossbows. (Of course, IIRC, it introduced the whole "town NPCs being killed by vampires" event, so that was less great.)

Maze_ posted...

Don't forget it starts with them yelling at you for not helping you kill a giant that

1. 99/100 times they killed literally before you could even see it
2. They're literally the guild of people who are paid money to kill giant monsters.

Would be like if a doctor berated you for not performing open heart surgery before they did as you walk past a hospital bed.

They're a weird bunch

Skyrim goes well out of its way to have certain characters treat you like an asshole / idiot for no other reason than to make the game less endearing. Delphine and Enthir (the College fence) are the worst offenders.

TheHoldSteady posted...

Dawnguard, Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood are good

Dark Brotherhood is ok

Not a fan of the other two at all

Skyrim is a huge turd as a whole according to the internet

I would much rather play Skyrim today than oblivion or Morrowind. Those aged pretty badly especially Morrowind

Shotgunnova posted...

Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are passable, but not exceptional, especially when compared to Oblivion's questlines.

I kind of agree with Shamus Young - the more you actually think about the Thieves' Guild questline, the stupider you realize it actually is.

https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14425
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14411
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14458
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14464

Smackems posted...

Skyrim is a huge turd as a whole according to the internet

I would much rather play Skyrim today than oblivion or Morrowind. Those aged pretty badly especially Morrowind

The internet tends to hate things the general public loves, and Morrowind purists are a really, really, really vocal minority.

bover_87 posted...

The internet tends to hate things the general public loves, and Morrowind purists are a really, really, really vocal minority.

The people who love Morrowind never shut up about it.

The people who hate Morrowind generally don't bother talking about it at all.

The fact that Bethesda has ported Skyrim to literally every system that's ever existed (and a few that don't) but seemed to forget Morrowind ever existed the moment they came out with Oblivion tells you everything you need to know about which one is actually popular.

And, I mean, hell - I'm a contrarian, and I still loathe Morrowind.

The Companions questline is easily the worst faction quest line in the game. It's short, nobody is likable, and it throws a werewolf plot into what has traditionally just been the mercenary quest in prior games.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

I kind of agree with Shamus Young - the more you actually think about the Thieves' Guild questline, the stupider you realize it actually is.

https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14425
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14411
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14458
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14464

Yeah, that dude rips things apart. If the lore and explanations were better, I don't think things would've been as lame. He is a little pedantic about the writing in parts, like why the meadery was given over to that shady dude (didn't the local constable-cum-poisonee put him in charge temporarily until things were sorted out?).

Would have been better if The Companions was a bigger guild (more characters) and the main questline in it was all about how it was being manipulated by an influential Hircine-worshipping werewolf cabal within it

Then you could do stuff like help purge the Hircine cult, or join it and wipe out the Silver Hand. Stuff like that.

But no.

TheHoldSteady posted...

Dawnguard, Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood are good

Thieves Guild is a crock of shit

Shotgunnova posted...

He is a little pedantic about the writing in parts, like why the meadery was given over to that shady dude (didn't the local constable-cum-poisonee put him in charge temporarily until things were sorted out?).

He does have a point, though - if someone tries to poison a high-ranking guard by giving him poisoned mead, do you think the rational response is to just put one of the employees in charge? For starters, that's not how property law or business work (even in a medieval world). Secondly, how do you know the employee wasn't responsible for poisoning the mead? Or that random stranger who just showed up and has been wandering around? Would it be safe to continue running the meadery at all when for all you know every vat could be poisoned?

Realistically, the guards are closing that meadery down entirely. Maybe - maybe - after a very long investigation they might allow it to reopen. But as presented it is sort of unbelievable... which, when combined with all of the other flaws in the storyline, kind of contributes to the feeling that the writing is bad. If the entire rest of the storyline was smart, you'd be less likely to notice plot weirdness like that, or at least more likely to overlook it. But as is, tons of minor flaws sort of add up to have a much stronger negative effect.

Although the writing in this quest (and Skyrim in general) is nothing special -- it often veers towards the "this sucks" realm -- there are certain factors about the meadery task that don't strike me as too far-fetched. Chiefly, why the meadery is given leeway to remain open and why there's no long investigation forthcoming. Answer: Sabjorn has a business relationship with the jarl himself, which he brags about in dialogue. I'd be surprised if the goodly Nords of that area went without their sweet, sweet swill for too long, especially since it's known as a local favorite -- good enough to compete with Riften's monopoly.

Why the establishment was given over to the shady dude, albeit on an interim basis, is actually rather shallow, though. Even with suspension of belief, why that particular dude would be given the task is just...sloppy. I guess you could argue he (and maybe that other employee) know the formula, so they're the best tasked to run the place, but you'd expect some scrutiny. Maybe he really was just in the right place at the right time and got it because of the captain's whims.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that having the guard poisoned was probably the best course of action for the Thieves Guild. The quest probably would've had a different (unfavorable) outcome if a higher-ranking person was poisoned, and little would change if a lower-ranking nobody had the same fate. Which isn't to say the writers thought it through that far -- this feels more like a happy accident.

bover_87 posted...

The internet tends to hate things the general public loves, and Morrowind purists are a really, really, really vocal minority.

I will say in fairness to Morrowind, that's because it has a lot of gameplay and story concessions that are not designed for casual players.

Player Freedom to the extent you can kill quest NPCs and mess up the plot
Actual roleplay, such as needing to be a good mage to do the mage guild, people telling you to fuck off if you're a vampire.
No quest markers requiring paying attention and talking to NPCs
Limited Fast Travel
You miss with weapons you don't know how to use
Most strangers treat you like shit
You move slow as fuck if wearing heavy armor and carrying stuff
Characters talk about subjects like rape and slavery

This is by default going to make it's fans a minority because Oblivion and Skyrim were designed to be shallow to make them more much more broadly popular and widely accessible. They were made with consoles in mind.

And that's not a defense or attack of either game. It's just by default the one that anyone can pick up and play that bends over backwards for the player is going to be more popular.

Same way Avengers is more popular than The Wall. Whether it's better is opinion.

I don't feel comfortable talking shit about either game TBH they both succeed in what they are trying to do.

Maze_ posted...

You miss with weapons you don't know how to use

This is one of those things that I fundamentally like in theory but don't think Morrowind put into practice well. There is just something fundamentally unfun about landing an attack and then having it "miss". I think something like Kingdom Come's system works better. At lower levels your attacks are slower, do less damage, less responsive and more easily parried. Bows have worse range and more spread. They even cause minor damage to you at lower levels if you aren't using arm protection. It gives the feeling of ineptitude but when you land a hit you, it feels good.

Kingdom Come Deliverance's combat, as rough as it can be, did have some good ideas, I agree. Even when you get weapons, since you're a stupid peasant who hasn't fought anything stronger than a fencepost, you suck at everything (besides boozing) and need official training to be somewhat better. That's part of the reason why it's so fun/harrowing/annoying when you start out and need to go to the next town over -- every single encounter is a life-or-death struggle, and even if you win, you may end up bleeding out half a mile down the road.

I think with low archery, you can even start bleeding (?) from firing without vambraces, which is pretty funny and a good way to dissuade cheaper kills you often get to do in open-world games. Of course, since archery never gives you a reticle and it can feel unwieldy, I expect people tend to dislike many combat situations in the game, haha.

But yeah, KCD unwittingly had a spark of genius in the mix. I'd love to see everything polished up for a sequel, 'cause it really was one of the more enjoyable RPGs I've played in recent memory.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

The people who love Morrowind never shut up about it.

The people who hate Morrowind generally don't bother talking about it at all.

The fact that Bethesda has ported Skyrim to literally every system that's ever existed (and a few that don't) but seemed to forget Morrowind ever existed the moment they came out with Oblivion tells you everything you need to know about which one is actually popular.

And, I mean, hell - I'm a contrarian, and I still loathe Morrowind.

They also seemed to forget Oblivion ever existed after Skyrim came out, as they haven't ported Oblivion to anything past the seventh gen.

I want to say there is some implication that the Silver Hand were also killing non-werewolves they suspected were infected, but it's been a while.

Shame after all the time Skyrim has been rereleased an ported they never changed any of the actual game. Like implimenting cut content and stuff.

It would be a nightmare to work with and add to Skyrim's rat nest coding, but it sure would have been nice.

Wetstew posted...

I want to say there is some implication that the Silver Hand were also killing non-werewolves they suspected were infected, but it's been a while.

Shame after all the time Skyrim has been rereleased an ported they never changed any of the actual game. Like implimenting cut content and stuff.

It would be a nightmare to work with and add to Skyrim's rat nest coding, but it sure would have been nice.

They did "add" mods into it officially

Wetstew posted...

I want to say there is some implication that the Silver Hand were also killing non-werewolves they suspected were infected, but it's been a while.

The implication is that they have torture devices and attack companions. Including the Dragonborn, even if they are not a warewolf.

I think people are misreading me in this topic. i'm not saying the Silver Hand are perfect heroes. Just that it feels weird that the game treats them like bandit scum when they seem as justified as any other faction in the brutal world. Trying to protect people from evil warewolf monsters who kill children.