Current Events > Tesla 'full self-driving' triggered an eight-car crash, a driver tells police

(+) Yeah! (+)

CableZL posted...

I'd think it would be considered proof when FSD is confirmed to have done this. I'd be interested in seeing the data from the car itself.

The data only Tesla can access? Lmao.

Fony posted...

There was no point to address, but I definitely fell out of my chair laughing when I read your post.

There was a point to address. A claim was made:

Tmaster148 posted...

Elon keeps advertising it as "full self-driving" so people put too much faith into a system that isn't designed to what the average person think it is doing.

This is false.

You can't seem to understand that, though.

there shouldn't be people with cars that don't drive them

Oh_Boy_ posted...

The data only Tesla can access? Lmao.

I'm in agreement that Tesla should make the data easily accessible, but you can request the data from Tesla. You can also order the necessary equipment needed to access the data yourself, even if it is incredibly expensive.

CableZL posted...

Again, the name of it doesn't matter in the slightest.

shorturl.at/klHW1

Seems like that might be a personal opinion

MacadamianNut3 posted...

shorturl.at/klHW1

Seems like that might be a personal opinion

I say the name doesn't matter because:

1. People will misuse/abuse the system regardless of what it's called
2. The system is nowhere near perfect as it stands today

If the system works the same way it does today, but the name is changed, that isn't going to stop people from trying to find ways to game it. The system itself has flaws that the developers are constantly working on. FSD is a lot better today than it was a year ago because they've repeatedly been releasing software updates to improve it. That's not to say that it's anywhere near a perfect system.

CableZL posted...

I say the name doesn't matter because:
1. People will misuse/abuse the system regardless of what it's called
2. The system is nowhere near perfect as it stands today

If the system works the same way it does today, but the name is changed, that isn't going to stop people from trying to find ways to game it.

If it wasnt called full self driving i can say with confidence fewer people would treat it as full self driving

TheGoldenEel posted...

If it wasnt called full self driving i can say with confidence fewer people would treat it as full self driving

Define "treat it as full self driving"

As it stands today, people with FSD are fully aware that it isn't.

CableZL posted...

If the system works the same way it does today, but the name is changed, that isn't going to stop people from trying to find ways to game it.

....ok then they should change the name and go from there then

Saying that some people will ignore that it's not fully autonomous even if you change the name isn't an argument against the name being misleading in the first place.

MacadamianNut3 posted...

Saying that some people will ignore that it's not fully autonomous even if you change the name isn't an argument against the name being misleading in the first place.

Assuming that people think it's fully autonomous doesn't mean people who have it really think it's fully autonomous.

CableZL posted...

Assuming that people think it's fully autonomous doesn't mean people who have it really think it's fully autonomous.

Post #56

This is a really fucking weird hill to die on ngl

Heeeeere's Germany

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2020/07/14/german-court-bans-tesla-autopilot-name-for-misleading-customers/?sh=345a9769c7fb

MacadamianNut3 posted...

Heeeeere's Germany

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2020/07/14/german-court-bans-tesla-autopilot-name-for-misleading-customers/?sh=345a9769c7fb

Now if only every other court around the world would do the same.

MacadamianNut3 posted...

Post #56

This is a really fucking weird hill to die on ngl

Post 56 isn't a counter to that statement. From the article:

Some regulators worry the marketing around the software could lull drivers into a false sense of security. Last year, a man was arrested for riding in the backseat while using FSD going down the highway.

Changing the name of FSD isn't going to stop some jackass from gaming the system in such a way in attempt to do this. The fact of the matter is that by the time you're using FSD, you've been warned many times that the system isn't fully autonomous, that you need to pay attention, keep your hands on the wheel, etc.

With the way Navigate on Autopilot/FSD is currently designed, you literally can't just go into the back seat and keep FSD running without intentionally gaming the system with some type of device that puts weight on the wheel to make the car think you're putting some turning pressure on it. Tesla is also adding updates to the system to better detect things like this.

https://twitter.com/teslascope/status/1595953734768791553

uwu then is the Germany one a counter then uguu

I'm not gonna spend more time looking up every country/state that has an issue with the FSR name after we've already clearly seen that is misleading no matter how many moronic drivers there are out there

The name is a lie at this point. It's like calling an elevator a teleporter.

MICHALECOLE posted...

If everybody had self driving cars, accidents would be close to 0% and traffic would be at least cut in half

Not even close. Traffic is not so easily solved, and definitely not with cars. If you add a new lane to a road it doesn't make traffic better, it often makes it worse. New lanes means even more cars can fit on the road which makes the pileups even longer. The only way to reduce traffic is with better infrastructure and public transit systems. Neither of these are problems that self-driving cars can address or solve. The only positive change a self-driving car can have on traffic; assuming all cars use this software, is removing the need for stop signs and red lights. A feat already attainable by simple roundabouts.

Additionally, the more widespread self-driving cars become the more likely it is that people seek ways to exploit it. A terrorist could feasibly force an update on the cars turning them into lethal weapons of mass chaos. Nobody is going to bother doing that right now because A) The cars already do that themselves, and B) There simply aren't enough of the vehicles on the road to warrant the effort. No information system is perfectly secure, and so self-driving cars must by necessity have an override function. An override which completely negates most of the benefit of trying to switch to 100% self-driving cars.

Additionally, most of the car accidents are not caused by people. These too are infrastructural problems. Especially in America our roads are incredibly poorly designed. We build businesses right up alongside highways, even homes sometimes. American cities are actively hostile to pedestrians, and there are very rarely things like separated bike lanes. If you're lucky, you get the spillway given to bikes, but it's never a separate lane with a barrier like it should be. A pedestrian sprinting across the street to try and beat traffic is highly likely to cause an accident, but that situation could have been avoided entirely with a subway, bike, or walkway system that keeps the pedestrians off the road in the first place. You can blame a human driver if you'd like, but it's better to prevent the unsafe situation entirely rather than try to correct bad driving through an AI.

And all of this ignores the human element at play with the AI too. Elon Musk is not a smart man, though he would have you believe otherwise. Most of his cars have doors which cannot be opened in the case of a power outage. Given how explosion prone the car's batteries are, that's not good. All Tesla owners must sign an NDA to not talk about problems with their Tesla. The cars are designed to roll through stop signs and red lights if it thinks nobody is there, and they're even designed to disengage moments before a crash so that Tesla can legally blame the driver for the fault rather than themselves. A self-driving car certainly has the potential to be better than a human driver, but so long as the AI is motivated by businessmen trying to milk every dollar they can out of the world then that will never happen. It's far more effective to string people along with grandiose promises of a better future, and then take the cash and leave.

MacadamianNut3 posted...

uwu then is the Germany one a counter then uguu

I'm not gonna spend more time looking up every country/state that has an issue with the FSR name after we've already clearly seen that is misleading no matter how many moronic drivers there are out there

This is where it would help you to actually read what you're posting.

1. Your article states someone gamed the system last year and went into the back seat of a Tesla.
2. The Germany example you're quoting is from two years ago.

Tesla has the right to appeal, but has already rebranded Autopilot as Autodrive in Germany.

Again, whether it's called Full Self Driving or Autodrive, it wouldn't have stopped some jackass from using a cheat device to get into the back seat and intentionally ignore all of the warnings you're given in order to use FSD.

Again, Tesla is adding updates to better detect cheat devices like that guy used.

Uta posted...

All Tesla owners must sign an NDA to not talk about problems with their Tesla.

Uhh, what? I signed no such NDA, and I've talked about the problems I've run into with my Tesla on a numerous occasions.

The tesla Full self driving feature is also like $15k+ i think too.

Kinda interested in what the car reported in this particular accident. The article mentions that the police deferred to tesla about details of the accident after getting statements from the driver(s) involved and witnesses.

HBOSS posted...

The tesla Full self driving feature is also like $15k+ i think too.

Kinda interested in what the car reported in this particular accident. The article mentions that the police deferred to tesla about details of the accident after getting statements from the driver(s) involved and witnesses.

Yeah. As it stands today, FSD is way overpriced, imo. I paid $6,000 for it when I got mine, and that was almost 2 years before the FSD beta was even available in the limited beta late last year. I believe the basic autopilot features are $6,000 now.

CableZL posted...

The Germany example you're quoting is from two years ago.

And?

FSD didn't work then, still doesn't work now. Article could be from 2016 and it still applies. While you're picking and choosing parts, odd how you lasered in on Autodriving sounding similar and not

The Court ruled Tesla had improperly claimed its cars had full-self driving, or autonomous driving, features, which the court instead categorized as Level 2 driving assistance at best.

"Since autopiloted and autonomous driving at level 5 is currently neither legally permissible nor technically possible for the vehicle in question, Tesla must also adhere to the rules of the game and must not make false advertising promises," Ottoflling insisted.

MacadamianNut3 posted...

And?

FSR didn't work then, still doesn't work now. Article could be from 2016 and it still applies. While you're picking and choosing parts, odd how you lasered in on Autodriving sounding similar and not

The Court ruled Tesla had improperly claimed its cars had full-self driving, or autonomous driving, features, which the court instead categorized as Level 2 driving assistance at best.

"Since autopiloted and autonomous driving at level 5 is currently neither legally permissible nor technically possible for the vehicle in question, Tesla must also adhere to the rules of the game and must not make false advertising promises," Ottoflling insisted.

And again, the court is hyperfocused on what they're calling the system and ignoring the fact that customers are repeatedly told verbally, in writing, and through in-car warnings that it isn't a fully autonomous system.

The reason I asked to "define treating it as full self driving" is because I'm aware of how FSD actually works. I use it on a regular basis, and you can't treat the system as fully autonomous unless you find a way to cheat it. People who are willing to go to the lengths necessary to cheat the system won't give a shit about what it's called.

CableZL posted...

And again, the court is hyperfocused on what they're calling the system

No shit lol

The reason I asked to "define treating it as full self driving" is because I'm aware of how FSD actually works.

And like TC when it comes to "how to drive" I'm sure you're not the only one and people involved in both of those lawsuits were also familiar with it

MacadamianNut3 posted...

And like TC when it comes to "how to drive" I'm sure you're not the only one and people involved in both of those lawsuits were also familiar with it

People who are familiar with how FSD actually works:

1. Understand that you can't treat it as a fully autonomous system without finding a way to cheat it.
2. Have been warned repeatedly via verbal, writing, and in-car warnings in order to use FSD.

I'd say it's fair to say that the way the system works can lull people into a false sense of security, but that's something that is being improved over time. As of the 2021 Model S/X refresh, they've added the in-cabin cameras to Model S and X vehicles. Previously, only the Model 3 and Y had in-cabin cameras. So anyone with a pre-refresh Model S or X (mine included) can have FSD without the eye tracking feature, as long as they have paid for FSD.

I never said or suggested "I'm the only one who understands how it works." I'm just giving clarification ITT because there are people ITT who clearly have never used it, nor do they understand how it works at all, based on what they're posting.

I'm also of the mind that Tesla ended the limited FSD beta a bit too early. It's definitely a ton better than it used to be when I first started using it last year, but it still does weird stuff sometimes.

I like how you are really upset that point are pointing out how Telsa constantly calling their system Self-Driving is a problem.

Telsa simps are really something.

Tmaster148 posted...

I like how you are really upset that point are pointing out how Telsa constantly calling their system Self-Driving is a problem.

Telsa simps are really something.

I like how trying to add objective discussion to the topic makes you a "Tesla simp." I'm not upset, nor am I a Tesla simp. I'm simply pointing out the fact that regardless of what it's named, people are going to try to find ways to abuse it.

Tesla has stated on multiple occasions that it's called "Full Self Driving" because that's the end goal of it.

Do I think they're anywhere near the end goal? Not in the slightest. Do I think they're inching towards it? Yes, because they are. The system is getting better and better as they release more updates. IMO, they're still nowhere near advancing from level 2 to level 3 autonomy as it stands today. However, they are indeed getting better and better at level 2 autonomy.

CableZL posted...

I like how trying to add objective discussion to the topic makes you a "Tesla simp." I'm not upset, nor am I a Tesla simp. I'm simply pointing out the fact that regardless of what it's named, people are going to try to find ways to abuse it.

Tesla has stated on multiple occasions that it's called "Full Self Driving" because that's the end goal of it.

Do I think they're anywhere near the end goal? Not in the slightest. Do I think they're inching towards it? Yes, because they are. The system is getting better and better as they release more updates. IMO, they're still nowhere near advancing from level 2 to level 3 autonomy as it stands today. However, they are indeed getting better and better at level 2 autonomy.

They aren't going to do FSD and you're simply a blind fanboy if you think so. Elon will keep promising FSD while telling his shareholders that they won't do it, because it'll be costly. And people will keep using the system thinking it is FSD causing accidents that could have been avoided.

You're simply being conned and going to bat for a fraudster.

Tmaster148 posted...

They aren't going to do FSD and you're simply a blind fanboy if you think so. Elon will keep promising FSD while telling his shareholders that they won't do it, because it'll be costly. And people will keep using the system thinking it is FSD causing accidents that could have been avoided.

You're simply being conned and going to bat for a fraudster.

You clearly didn't read my post at all. Let me know when you have. I never said Tesla will accomplish level 5 autonomy. I literally stated they aren't anywhere near advancing to level 3, but you either didn't understand or just skipped right over that part.

CableZL posted...

You clearly didn't read my post at all. Let me know when you have. I never said Tesla will accomplish level 5 autonomy.

Then idk why you think it's proper to call it FSD, when it's not and never will be. I guess there's not enough car crashed in the world that you want to manufacture more from false advertising.

I think Cable is vastly overestimating the common sense of people for them to not assume it is as the name says, no matter how many times they are told otherwise.

They can even be made to repeat back it isn't fully automatic and some will still behave as if it is.

Tmaster148 posted...

Then idk why you think it's proper to call it FSD, when it's not and never will be. I guess there's not enough car crashed in the world that you want to manufacture more from false advertising.

As I've stated already, I really don't care about what it's called. I'm of the opinion that people are putting too much focus on the name of it and are ignorant (some willfully so even after repeated explanations) of how it actually works.

How it actually works should be changed. The name itself is meaningless. Again, they could call it "Level 2 Autonomous System Currently In Development" and it wouldn't have stopped the person who has been repeatedly caught on video sleeping in the back seat while using cheat devices.

CableZL posted...

As I've stated already, I really don't care about what it's called. I'm of the opinion that people are putting too much focus on the name of it and are ignorant (some willfully so even after repeated explanations) of how it actually works.

How it actually works should be changed. The name itself is meaningless. Again, they could call it "Level 2 Autonomous System Currently In Development" and it wouldn't have stopped the person who has been repeatedly caught on video sleeping in the back seat while using cheat devices.

Because the name of things matters. People see "Self Driving Car Feature" they'll think "Self Driving" not "slightly more advanced Cruise Control".

But instead of asking Telsa to be truthful about the features of their cars, you want them to keep lying.

Funkydog posted...

I think Cable is vastly overestimating the common sense of people for them to not assume it is as the name says, no matter how many times they are told otherwise.

They can even be made to repeat back it isn't fully automatic and some will still behave as if it is.

No, it's just that the fact of the matter is that you cannot treat the system as full self driving as it stands today if you actually try to use it.

Treating the system as a level 5 autonomous system (true full self driving) means you can do stuff like this:

1. Get in car while it's parked in your garage. Enter some command verbally or on the touch screen to tell it to go where you want to go.
2. The car opens your garage, drives out of your driveway, and onto the street
3. The car drives itself with no user input whatsoever for the entire length of the trip

You can't do that with FSD. Changing the name of FSD doesn't change that.

Tmaster148 posted...

Because the name of things matters. People see "Self Driving Car Feature" they'll think "Self Driving" not "slightly more advanced Cruise Control".

But instead of asking Telsa to be truthful about the features of their cars, you want them to keep lying.

How the system works matters a ton more than what it's called. They can change the name or keep it the same and it doesn't change how the system works. I'm not sure how many times you need it explained that you literally can't treat a Tesla as a full self driving car as it stands today without going out of your way to cheat the system in some way that Tesla hasn't currently designed around.

CableZL posted...

No, it's just that the fact of the matter is that you cannot treat the system as full self driving as it stands today if you actually try to use it.

Then Tesla should stop treating their system as FSD when advertising it

CableZL posted...

No, it's just that the fact of the matter is that you cannot treat the system as full self driving as it stands today if you actually try to use it.

You realise no one is claiming you can treat it like that, right? Just that using a name that implies that, means that many will incorrectly think they can do things they can't and shouldn't.

Tmaster148 posted...

Then Tesla should stop treating their system as FSD when advertising it

Tesla doesn't treat their system as FSD when they advertise it.

CableZL posted...

How the system works matters a ton more than what it's called. They can change the name or keep it the same and it doesn't change how the system works. I'm not sure how many times you need it explained that you literally can't treat a Tesla as a full self driving car as it stands today without going out of your way to cheat the system in some way that Tesla hasn't currently designed around.

Names do matter. Really sad you can't grasp a simple concept.

CableZL posted...

How the system works matters a ton more than what it's called.

Have you ever taken a single marketing class or even software engineering class ever. I figured "The Design of Everyday Things" would be foundational reading for anybody involved in anything tech, but tldr the exact opposite of what you said is the truth

Funkydog posted...

You realise no one is claiming you can treat it like that, right?

Incorrect.

TheGoldenEel posted...

If it wasnt called full self driving i can say with confidence fewer people would treat it as full self driving

Again, you literally cannot treat a Tesla as full self driving without going out of your way to cheat the system in some way that Tesla hasn't currently designed around.

Tmaster148 posted...

Names do matter. Really sad you can't grasp a simple concept.

The name doesn't matter when you literally can't treat the system as a true full self driving car as it stands today.

CableZL posted...

Tesla doesn't treat their system as FSD when they advertise it.

They named it full self driving, so in fact, they do

CableZL posted...

The name doesn't matter when you literally can't treat the system as a true full self driving car as it stands today.

The average person is going to treat a system called "Full Self Driving" as "Full Self Driving". It doesn't matter if the system can actually perform "Full Self Driving".

TheGoldenEel posted...

They named it full self driving, so in fact, they do

They've named it full self driving, yes, but you're still ignoring the fact that they don't claim the system is anything but a level 2 autonomous system as it stands today.

CableZL posted...

They've named it full self driving, yes, but you're still ignoring the fact that they don't claim the system is anything but a level 2 autonomous system as it stands today.

They've only said this in response to government and shareholders. They are not going around telling their customers it's only Level 2.

CableZL posted...

They've named it full self driving, yes, but you're still ignoring the fact that they don't claim the system is anything but a level 2 autonomous system as it stands today.

They do claim its full self driving because they named it full self driving

it doesnt matter what clarification they make after the fact. The very first thing they claim to potential customers is that they are selling a full self driving feature

Tmaster148 posted...

The average person is going to treat a system called "Full Self Driving" as "Full Self Driving". It doesn't matter if the system can actually perform "Full Self Driving".

You're again showing that you don't understand how the system works at all. The average person doesn't treat it as full self driving because the average person doesn't go out of their way to use cheat devices in some way that Tesla hasn't currently designed around. The system has multiple guard rails that prevent people from using it as full self driving.

CableZL posted...

You're again showing that you don't understand how the system works at all. The average person doesn't treat it as full self driving because the average person doesn't go out of their way to use cheat devices in some way that Tesla hasn't currently designed around. The system has multiple guard rails that prevent people from using it as full self driving.

I know how the system works. I'm explaining to you in the simplest words that you still can't understand that regardless of how the system works is irrelevant to the average person who sees the name "full self driving".