Current Events > Elon Musk's Neuralink killed 1,500 animals in four years;

(+) Yeah! (+)

Foppe posted...

If you kill more than one animal daily for four years, then your product is not ready for animal testing yet.

Again, it needs to be emphasizes that purposefully killing animals at the end of an experimental timepoint is extremely normal in neuroscience.

A with other such research I hope some good inevitably comes from it so their lives weren't in vain.

COVxy posted...

Again, it needs to be emphasizes that purposefully killing animals at the end of an experimental timepoint is extremely normal in neuroscience.

No one has complained about end of experiment euthanasia. Or rather at least no one from Neuralink is complaining about that.

COVxy posted...

Again, it needs to be emphasizes that purposefully killing animals at the end of an experimental timepoint is extremely normal in neuroscience.

Yes it is within reason, but if you're just slaughtering animals by the thousands with questionable science then that's a serious issue.

Tyranthraxus posted...

No one has complained about end of experiment euthanasia. Or rather at least no one from Neuralink is complaining about that.

This is the fucking topic my man. A total count of killed animals is stupid because that's just how the science works.

Then we have two very minor nonspecific complaints. You really want to hang your hat on those comments?

Or is it just that it's an easy win because when confronted with animal research most people sour?

Drumming up hate for animal research because Musk is a fucking moron is bad.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/elon-musks-neuralink-under-federal-investigation-animal-treatment

Musk is under investigation at the very least for alleged animal welfare abuses and botched experiments.

I am _really_ not on board with the privitisation of life-changing surgeries like this. Using cybernetics to augment humans is one thing, but you're putting control of your autonomous functions in the hands of people who only want to make money. There's an altruist bend here (curing paralysis and blindness are noble), but let's be real - their service will require upkeep and firmware updates. https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete

COVxy posted...

This is the fucking topic my man. A total count of killed animals is stupid because that's just how the science works.

I mean it's irrelevant what the average person thinks of routine euthanasia, including PETA's freezers. That doesn't and had never been an issue with ethics oversight. This topic is about ethics violations. If other people don't understand that euthanasia isn't unethical then that's not my problem nor is it my argument.

COVxy posted...

Then we have two very minor nonspecific complaints.

There's more than two and they are very specific and they have been going on for years. This is about frequently botched surgeries performed under duress and with unreasonable time allowed to complete those surgeries + post op recovery.

Some monkeys had to be killed because the surgery was so shitty that they were in constant torturous pain and couldn't provide any useful testing results and had to redo the experiments. These aren't "mistakes" they are forced errors because of Elon's insane directives and deadlines.

And while all this is going on, Elon Musk is busy falsifying materials submitted to ethics oversight.

Rain_Dust posted...

just an fyi they kill animals for no scientific purpose all the time. all over. a billion times more than what he did.

Yea this, not worth throwing a hissy fit over this thing is unfortunately common.

COVxy posted...

Nah. When you do animal research, you kill the animals after. That's just the facts of life. Being against animal research is myopic.

Oh right, THAT'S why I have you tagged as "Loves Animal Torture".

TMOG posted...

Oh right, THAT'S why I have you tagged as "Loves Animal Torture".

Yeah, you're the type of person who would see a perfusion and cry foul because he doesn't understand what he's talking about.

lets make this simple for ppl

if some one was doing "science" to attach gils to to mamals so they cn breath under water

would that science be valid at all

that is the same kind wack job nonsense this science is

Tyranthraxus posted...

There's more than two and they are very specific and they have been going on for years. This is about frequently botched surgeries performed under duress and with unreasonable time allowed to complete those surgeries + post op recovery.

Some monkeys had to be killed because the surgery was so s***ty that they were in constant torturous pain and couldn't provide any useful testing results and had to redo the experiments. These aren't "mistakes" they are forced errors because of Elon's insane directives and deadlines.

And while all this is going on, Elon Musk is busy falsifying materials submitted to ethics oversight.

Yup this is the actual issue at hand, and "the ends always justify the means" people like covxy are why the whole "mad scientist" and similar stereotypes exist. When research goals and private interests are one and the same, you're going to get amoral shit just like with any other sector of capitalism.

And this is just the US! Imagine the horrors that go on in countries that have even less concern for animal welfare.

Tyranthraxus posted...

There's more than two and they are very specific and they have been going on for years. This is about frequently botched surgeries performed under duress and with unreasonable time allowed to complete those surgeries + post op recovery.

Let me be clear. Specific means a specific incident report. A specific case of wrong doing. Not "it feels like we're going too fast and surgeries are probably being botched because of it".

I mean "animal ### was put through unneccessary procedures because of poor oversight and resulted in animal harm: x, y, z."

Tyranthraxus posted...

And while all this is going on, Elon Musk is busy falsifying materials submitted to ethics oversight.

If this has any legs then obviously there's an issue! But I've seen no reporting of this. Just people stating "ahhhh, ethics boards?! He's probably giving them the one two sweep a roo!"

UamChetoBeardXD posted...

Yup this is the actual issue at hand, and "the ends always justify the means" people like covxy

That's like, definitely not representative of my views. Animal care ethics is something I take very seriously and a drill into my trainees. But "they did animal research" is not an ethics violation.

And I'm clearly worried that people are using the public's unease about animal research in order to amplify this because Musk is a douchbag. Like, neuralink is deeply flawed as presented, and at best will just yeild better prosethetics and movement restoration. Which, if presented as straight ahead as it is could be good, but Musk is an insufferable hypemagnet.

Pushing anti-animal research nonsense as a means to an end (that end being to give Musk bad press) is a bad thing for society and science.

COVxy posted...

Let me be clear. Specific means a specific incident report. A specific case of wrong doing. Not "it feels like we're going too fast and surgeries are probably being botched because of it".

I mean "animal ### was put through unneccessary procedures because of poor oversight and resulted in animal harm: x, y, z."

It happened multiple times to different monkeys so I do not have specifics in that regard, just that animals were mistreated in the following ways {a, b, c} resulting in harm {x, y, z}

The "going too fast" complaint is specifically about rushing/overworking the neurosurgeons causing them to make sloppy work. That's not necessarily direct mistreatment of animals but it is ethically irresponsible to make stressed out/potentially unqualified surgeons work on live monkeys.

We may know more specifics in the coming weeks as this has finally gotten the attention of regulation bureaus.

So, to be clear, you're raising a large hubaloo about vague comments about "mistreatment".

This type of press does real harm to science. A researcher was literally driven out of his lab due to false claims made by animal activists who infiltrated his lab. Literally shut down one of the most productive neuroscience labs for years because of complete bullshit. Bullshit that the German public ate up like candy.
https://www.science.org/content/article/animal-rights-conflict-prompts-leading-researcher-leave-germany-china

COVxy posted...

So, to be clear, you're raising a large hubaloo about vague comments about "mistreatment".

This isn't hullabaloo. These are whistleblower statements and leaks from neuralink research facilities. They are the reason the inquiries are going on now so even the government is taking this seriously

Government took the claims against Logothetis seriously too. An inquiry doesn't imply guilt, as much as people want it to.

People only care about this because they dont like Elon lol phony outrage at its finest.

COVxy posted...

Animal care ethics is something I take very seriously and a drill into my trainees.

If you're doing the kind of research that requires you to kill the animals at the end, be it because you've ruined their lives to the point that it's the more humane decision or because "it's just what you do", then you don't give a single fucking shit about animal care ethics and you don't get to pretend otherwise.

TMOG posted...

If you're doing the kind of research that requires you to kill the animals at the end, be it because you've ruined their lives to the point that it's the more humane decision or because "it's just what you do", then you don't give a single fucking shit about animal care ethics and you don't get to pretend otherwise.

Animal care ethics tends to be about doing research in the most humane way possible with the fewest possible animals.

Do you have another way to study the brain, or do you think we just shouldn't do so?

COVxy posted...

Animal care ethics tends to be about doing research in the most humane way possible with the fewest possible animals.

Do you have another way to study the brain, or do you think we just shouldn't do so?

Doesn't the knowledge of what different parts of the brain do come from brain damage victims? Seems there's a fair amount of things that can be studied involving no animals. The human brain is only slightly analogous to animals' brains anyway

UamChetoBeardXD posted...

Doesn't the knowledge of what different parts of the brain do come from brain damage victims? Seems there's a fair amount of things that can be studied involving no animals. The human brain is only slightly analogous to animals' brains anyway

Now how do you propose we study ways to help brain damaged victims? Experiment on brain damaged people directly?

UamChetoBeardXD posted...

Doesn't the knowledge of what different parts of the brain do come from brain damage victims? Seems there's a fair amount of things that can be studied involving no animals. The human brain is only slightly analogous to animals' brains anyway

You can only get so far with macroscopic localization of function. Like, knowing that brain region x is important for function y doesn't do too much to tell you how the brain does y. Further, the brain is a dynamic highly interconnected system. After damage there's adaptation and restructuring, and knocking out one brain region will create secondary and tertiary and etc effects across the brain.

That type of research was done pretty heavily in the early 1900's. Our understanding of how the brain works has exploded way beyond that, and that's thanks to highly controlled animal studies.

COVxy posted...

There are lots of reasons to criticize Neuralink. This is not one of them.

Yes it is. You are no authority.

Naysaspace posted...

Yes it is. You are no authority.

Said the rando to the actual neuroscientist lol.

COVxy posted...

There are lots of reasons to criticize Neuralink. This is not one of them.

Of course you feel that way. You bragged about cutting up monkeys for research.

You have no shame dude lol.

TMOG posted...

If you're doing the kind of research that requires you to kill the animals at the end, be it because you've ruined their lives to the point that it's the more humane decision or because "it's just what you do", then you don't give a single fucking shit about animal care ethics and you don't get to pretend otherwise.

I only work with humans but like I said I have a lot of colleagues former and current that use animals and you just can't throw this kind of stuff out there. Like I don't even eat animals, I really don't like the concept of animal suffering, but there really are not any alternatives for a lot of this research. You will pretty much have to go super vegan like McCartney's wife that died of cancer because she refused animal tested medicine to avoid the ethical dilemma involved with this. Animal testing is not something we can throw out without greatly diminishing our ability to do research, and yes you often have to sacrifice the animals.

UamChetoBeardXD posted...

Doesn't the knowledge of what different parts of the brain do come from brain damage victims? Seems there's a fair amount of things that can be studied involving no animals. The human brain is only slightly analogous to animals' brains anyway

The human brain is very analogous to other mammalian brains and that's why they're used for testing. Especially primate brains have massive similarities.

ssjevot posted...

The human brain is very analogous to other mammalian brains and that's why they're used for testing.

Indeed, fundamental organizational principles are highy conserved across all mammals.

I knew they were sacrificing animals for their research, but sheesh that's hella. Seems like at that point it's being wasteful.

COVxy posted...

Indeed, fundamental organizational principles are highy conserved across all mammals.

Yeah I use fMRI in some of my research and many of the regions of interest we map out are actually derived from primate studies.

i wonder if people know the extent of animal research that goes on, probably, near them

i live in a city with a research college and I know there are a bunch of places where they test on and often euthanize sheep, monkeys, beagles. I used to do work repairing hospital equipment and there was even a floor at one of the hospitals that was occupied by the university where they would sneak in animals to do research in

its controversial but extremely common, and the places really try to keep it as quiet as possible for this reason

COVxy posted...

Indeed, fundamental organizational principles are highy conserved across all mammals.

Evidently not if they need to use monkeys for this

TheGoldenEel posted...

where they would sneak in animals to do research in

Shady as fuck. Couldn't be me