Current Events > As a leftist I am deeply disturbed by the liberal claim that 'sex work is work'

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's been observed over and over again in Europe that, in countries where prostitution is legal, there's more trafficking.

Are they simply legalized/decriminalized or are they run by government organizations with an emphasis on safety?

Because if it's the former, then those are open to exploitation.

If it's the latter, it could be a case of corruption.

I'm not saying it would be flawless or easy, but with the proper backing, led by people who actually give a fuck (more than just physically) then it could be transformed into a safer industry.

Check the link I posted earlier

The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a countrys inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking, the researchers state. However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes at least those legally employed if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky freedom of choice issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.

Are they simply legalized/decriminalized or are they run by government organizations with an emphasis on safety?

Because if it's the former, then those are open to exploitation.

If it's the latter, it could be a case of corruption.

I'm not saying it would be flawless or easy, but with the proper backing, led by people who actually give a fuck (more than just physically) then it could be transformed into a safer industry.

It really would. The anti-social introverts who become depraved living in their moms basements, hating women because no one wants to hook up with a creepy ass weirdo can simply get laid with an app and their entire world view would change.

I don't think you'll find any sector of work in Europe that offers the type of protection and safety that you're talking about. Moreover, the people generally speaking in favor of legalizing prostitution (a rather liberal position) tend to be people who aren't really in favor of unionized power.

And I really don't think that "the proper backing" is realistic at all. Not to mention, that the laws would be enforced by cops. Cops have, to put it mildly, not a great history with prostitution.

Look, I'm all for ending exploitation in all labor, but I don't really believe that there would be a market left for prostitution if that were achieved.

The market for prostitution will always be there(it's a basic human need), it'd just be a matter of having the proper financial backing so it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive to hire a legal sex worker VS an illegal sex worker.

Are you saying there needs to be subsidies for guys who wanna buy a prostitute?

you know theres studies that demonstrate the health benefits of regular sex
in a society where prostitution was legalised, there should be an accessible avenue for it

Are you saying there needs to be subsidies for guys who wanna buy a prostitute?

If the legal option is prohibitively expensive, it would only serve to benefit the black market by funneling people seeking legal sex into the cheaper black market.

So on some level, yes, it'd need to be subsidized in some manner. Either by direct financial backing, or through some other manner like tax incentives or something though I'm not entirely certain atm on what exactly

Well, I think we're so diametrically opposed here that there's not much more to say

Can't the same be said about most employees.

Are you saying there needs to be subsidies for guys who wanna buy a prostitute?

I wonder if there are any studies on the general well-beings of prostitutes

Are you for legalizing drugs?

https://twitter.com/comradeswift/status/1491034603955814403

yes, sex work under capitalism is exploitative. this is true of all work though

they're by design obscuring the fact that having sex is one of the more intimate things that humans can do

It might be that, for example, various types of hard labor is necessary for society to function, but we should never seek a society where sex is considered work.

That's an opinion rather than a fact

Ask a Cheetah if sex is intimate.

Right. But when people go "sex work is work", they're by design obscuring the fact that having sex is one of the more intimate things that humans can do, and so the exploitation is a fair bit more invasive than other forms of exploitation.

So while they're all bad, they're not all exactly the same, and might need different solutions. It might be that, for example, various types of hard labor is necessary for society to function, but we should never seek a society where sex is considered work.

getting pimped out is exploitation. A sex worker doing it consensually in a safe environment is not. Also men can be sex workers too bro.

Why would a cheetah's opinion on sex between humans matter?

I 100% believe that TC is a leftist (especially with that username) and that this topic was made out of a genuine concern.

Can't the same be said about most employees.

Capitalism is not wicked or cruel when the commodity is the whore; profit is not wicked or cruel when the alienated worker is a female piece of meat; corporate bloodsucking is not wicked or cruel when the corporations in question, sell ****... poverty is not wicked or cruel when it is the poverty of dispossessed women who have only themselves to sell; violence by the powerful against the powerless is not wicked or cruel when it is called sex; slavery is not wicked or cruel when it is sexual slavery; torture is not wicked or cruel when the tormented are women... The new pornography is left-wing; and the new pornography is a vast graveyard where the Left has gone to die. The Left cannot have its whores and its politics too.
~Andrea Dworkin

this is extremely subjective. certainly much more than you're making it out to be.

not sure how accurate it is, but prostitution is frequently called the world's oldest profession. (I do know, though, that, in one instance, scientists introduced the concept of money to a group of chimpanzees, and those chimps almost immediately developed prostitution)

it might not be "necessary for society to function" in the strictest possible sense, but I don't think it should stop existing just because some people are uncomfortable with it -- which is basically what your qualms amount to

While the stigma of sleeping with someone who does it for profit might not go away, it could begin to try to help address some deep rooted societal issues, like the growing incel population.

Workers have nothing to sell but their labor, ie their bodies in late stage capitalism. That applies to all of us.

There are things unique to sex work that can make it more dangerous than other work, but most of those could be theoretically fixed. What can't be fixed and what drives a lot of the discussion here is the moral element, the cultural idea that sex is and should be special in all circumstances and that smiling when you don't want to or damaging your body to mine coal is fundamentally different from giving someone a HJ when you wouldn't for free.

I think there's a difference between what it is and what it should be. Not really sure there's a big argument that sex isn't special. Whether or not it should be is another question entirely.

The purpose of intertwining sex with the moral element to be a special intimate occasion is help women create a mindset to filter out guys and pressure men to be committed in the event the girl gets pregnant. I.e. it's all to protect the children.

But due to the ease of access to reliable contraception, society has generally devalued the act of sex as the main risk, pregnancy, has been reduced to negligible percentages.

Akin to what that other poster ridiculously tried to bring up earlier about cheetahs, why would we look to chimpanzees for answers on things that quite clearly are social constructs? We

Of course it's subjective! But I'd argue that in our society, it's a pretty solid norm. And you could hardly deny that prostitution is one of the more personally invasive "jobs" you could have, no?

The man who ascribed that reputation to prostitution is Rudyard Kipling, and he did that in 1889. Not sure it's a great argument for anything. About the chimpanzees, I'm aware of the study. And I'm also aware of the criticism it's gotten, on the basis that prostitution is a human social construct. Akin to what that other poster ridiculously tried to bring up earlier about cheetahs, why would we look to chimpanzees for answers on things that quite clearly are social constructs? We don't understand chimpanzee sexuality well enough to know that prostitution is an apt comparison, but we know that there's no reason to believe that their understanding of sex, labor, power, coercion, etc are similar to ours at all. It's perfectly fine to argue that you think prostitution should, or needs to, or just will, exist no matter what. But it's pretty weird to base your arguments on quotes by Rudyard Kipling or behavioral studies on monkeys.

It's not a very charitable interpretation of what I'm saying that "I'm just uncomfortable with it", and I think you know that.

I don't think it's necessarily more invasive than other jobs, no. I think that's also extremely subjective. the people who choose to do sex work probably don't think it's more invasive than other jobs. I also don't think we should be using "norms" like that as a starting point, since sex work is "normally" shunned, or at least frowned upon; and a significant part of this conversation is disentangling the work itself from such "norms."

okay. that's... also fair.