Current Events > Little black girls react to the new little mermaid. Why the BS is worth it.

(+) Yeah! (+)

What are these "claims"? I haven't made any claims. Please point out to me a "claim" I've made.

The only one I see is "there are genetic variations in a number of features of human beings". Do you want my degree or research on that?

Really, you're asking me for a source on racial issues being a problem that's gotten worse in recent years, or at best fluctuated in the long term.

As literally one of those (47), I'm mature enough to know if it's good it's good, and if it sucks don't blame "diversity!".

Catwoman should have taught us this, and holy shit its the same actress.

What are these "claims"? I haven't made any claims. Please point out to me a "claim" I've made.

Yes, I 100% agree with this. Which is why I have no problem with the color of The Little Mermaid's skin, but also what bothers me about those reactions. And yes it is a touching reaction, and of course I understand the reasons behind it, and they're very good reasons, but the fact is that those reasons have led to a certain kind of thinking and certain positions that ultimately do more harm than help. And you can call those whatever fancy words you want, but what they really are is quite simply racism, alive and doing very well, thank you.

The claim you made was "Again, you're describing what goes on in the heads of people. That's not necessarily reality."

So... What is the "reality".

I'm asking you for a source on a large group of people seeing themselves represented making them more racist.

You....can't be serious.

Well ask somebody else because that's not my argument. And again, representation by itself is not a problem. This is one of the very first things I said in the whole thread.

But there's a significant portion of the population where it has almost the opposite effect as presumably intended

Ok so what do you mean by this...

Simply that racist people are not going to get out of this what one would like them to get. In fact they get something you really don't want them to get, stuff like this reinforces their racism.

I've never disputed that there's nothing good to get out of it. I'm saying, ultimately it doesn't really help the problem, by itself. But by itself it's also not a problem, and there is some good to get out of it.

Simply that racist people are not going to get out of this what one would like them to get. In fact they get something you really don't want them to get, stuff like this reinforces their racism.

I've never disputed that there's nothing good to get out of it. I'm saying, ultimately it doesn't really help the problem, by itself. But by itself it's also not a problem, and there is some good to get out of it.

Ok and where is your source for this claim. There has been evidence presented that representation does help, but you're claiming it doesn't so how about presenting your evidence that it doesn't.

Shrug. That is an idea, it remains to be seen how well it would work.

We could also try changing the way we think. People love to try to change society, but they don't realize that we are the ones that made society. As long as all you do is deconstruct society into power struggles you're never really going to change anything. If you change the way people think on the other hand you will inevitably change society. It's just that that's a lot harder to do, or even conceive, and people are lazy. Or worse.

His source seems to be the tried and true Trust me, bro.

One thing I'm generally glad about Disney for is that they've finally realized how little the money from "anti-wokers" is actually worth and there's no reason to appeal to them.

Honestly, both the "anti-woke" crowd and the "not woke enough" crowds are such a small minority of the consumer base and the average person really doesn't care about these things and are just hoping for a decent product to enjoy.

@ap3brain

This is for people who don't get it. Watch this
https://youtu.be/EQACkg5i4AY

Yes most people "don't really care" however a large number of those people who don't really care aren't white and are more enthusiastic to see people that look like them cast in major roles. They'd probably go see it anyway if they cast a ginger but they didn't and that makes those people happy and doesn't hurt the quality of the movie so there's no reason not to do it.

I get that but some character having brown skin in media isn't going to change this. They believe these types of things because of how they grew up and what they have been told by others; sometimes by their own families.

Yes most people "don't really care" however a large number of those people who don't really care aren't white

Given the country's demogaphics, I find that difficult to believe that most who don't care aren't white >_>

Do you have a source, study, or poll citing hard numbers or percentages to back that up?

Which reboot would you like to see yourself represented in?

my intention hasn't been to describe reality

So you want to have a problem with this and can't find one. You SERIOUSLY need to evaluate your feelings on this and why you feel like you should respond the way you have.

It's a good thing, and this bigoted old argument that if it doesnt fix everything at once by itself that's it's not worth anyone's time is something you really need to look at.

no kidding

Nah, I don't need to do that. If you can't see the problem then that's on you, not me. I can't make you see a problem if you got your head so far up your collective ass.

My argument has never been that it's not worth time because it doesn't fix the whole problem immediately. But once again, it's comfortable for you to have that take, and nothing else. Thinking is too hard!

I'd argue that peoples' thoughts are based on the societal structures. Changes in system thought patterns require a change in the environment.

You can't just magically have people thinking different. You have to change the environment in some way to make people think differently. It's not just a switch you can change through wishing things were different.

You haven't explicitly explained your position this whole time, so why don't you go ahead and do that. Because every time someone responds to you and calls out your perceived bullshit you backtrack and say thats not what you meant. So why not avoid all this useless back and forth and state your opinion on the matter and the points you're trying to make.

I don't know if I would say "people's thoughts are based on societal structures". They do have an influence on it, for sure, but the way people think comes out of a lot more factors than the status of society.

Not to mention that if it does depend on society, then we're stuck. There's no way to change a society without changing thought.

I didn't say it's going to happen magically. And sure, while we're at it, why not change society as much as we can for the better. Hence, representation. But just that won't make any meaningful, lasting change, because you're locked in a power struggle, and power swings. So one decade things are going fine, and the next one you get Donald Trump. Why, because you didn't really change anything, no matter how comfortable it is to tell yourself that you did, and what twisted logic you use to tell yourself that.

"trump was obama's fault"

oh I see *rolls eyes until they fall out of skull*

Again, I don't have a "position". I don't need one, because I'm not trying to advance any particular point of view. I'm just challenging the idea that things like representation, by themselves, and more importantly the mindset, the logic, the ideology behind it helps eradicate racism.

I don't know if I would say "people's thoughts are based on societal structures". They do have an influence on it, for sure, but the way people think comes out of a lot more factors than the status of society.

Not to mention that if it does depend on society, then we're stuck. There's no way to change a society without changing thought.

I didn't say it's going to happen magically. And sure, while we're at it, why not change society as much as we can for the better. Hence, representation. But just that won't make any meaningful, lasting change, because you're locked in a power struggle, and power swings. So one decade things are going fine, and the next one you get Donald Trump. Why, because you didn't really change anything, no matter how comfortable it is to tell yourself that you did, and what twisted logic you use to tell yourself that.

Again yeah, you look very comfortable dismissing the problem so offhandedly. Too bad the problem stays.

I don't know if I would say "people's thoughts are based on societal structures". They do have an influence on it, for sure, but the way people think comes out of a lot more factors than the status of society.

Not to mention that if it does depend on society, then we're stuck. There's no way to change a society without changing thought.

I didn't say it's going to happen magically. And sure, while we're at it, why not change society as much as we can for the better. Hence, representation. But just that won't make any meaningful, lasting change, because you're locked in a power struggle, and power swings. So one decade things are going fine, and the next one you get Donald Trump. Why, because you didn't really change anything, no matter how comfortable it is to tell yourself that you did, and what twisted logic you use to tell yourself that.

You're not challenging that idea because no one here has claimed that representation alone will eradicate racism. Also why not respond to post 208?

Bro it's a fucking disney movie. Nobody is expecting one disney movie about mermaids to solve racism.

Also please show us your sociology and/or poli sci degree? And maybe some studies to back up the bullshit you're spewing?

Sorry, I'm way past the Little Mermaid, you're the one stuck on it.

sure there is a way to change society without changing thought. what do you think the Civil Rights movement was about? you think peoples' thoughts changes instantly before/after Jim Crow laws were outlawed? No, society changed because of that, and peoples' thoughts change over generations as people get used to being integrated and realizing people aren't the monsters they were made out to be. People of all kinds being represented, being seen as been normal/ok/as good as everyone else matters. It's the same reason why (more) people are cool with gay marriage. You may the change, people realize it's not as bad as they thought it was, and people change their views and move on. Same with will happen with socialized medicine in the US, one day, too. This is why we see intergenerational progress. Thoughts and society adjust/oscillate/progress over time, and laws/actions/movements are what help disrupt the status quo to move things along (very slowly, sadly). This is one of the things people are trying to do to normalize non-white, non-cis, non-male in some cases, people from being in main roles and more diverse roles than they have been for decades. And I am all for that. We just need for it to be normal, then we can "stop talking about it". This is, sadly, a necessary step, since we aren't at a point yet when it can just happen without needing to be commented on. This is similar to, say, interracial marriage, which is commonplace now, but was a big(ger) deal in the past. Now, we can see it (in some places) and not even bat an eyelash. Even in this case, we still it still catches peoples' attentions, sometimes in a negative way, but its certainly moving in (what I consider) a more positive direction. Why? Because things changed, and peoples' views adjusted accordingly.

And I do not dispute whatsoever that it swings back and forth. All of human history shows that there is constant back and forth in society. And that is normal. However, if you look at US history, you'll see it continually moves to the left if you look at long enough time scales. Conservatives continue to fight a losing war, even with (many, perhaps too many, in my opinion) victories along the way.

Considering that The Little Mermaid is the topic of conversation, maybe you should just leave.

First off that's not what I'm challenging, "representation alone will eradicate racism", but of course you don't really want to think about any of this so you resort to intellectual laziness. But more importantly I don't need anybody here to explicitly make any claim in order to challenge some related or similar position.

I did respond to 208. I don't know what "evidence" you want, I'm just reading the current sociopolitical climate, perhaps you disagree, in which case honestly I'd call you a little naive. I mean, I could point to this very thread as part of my evidence. There's quite obviously a problem and there hasn't really been that much progress made on it even after a few decades now of holding to the position I'm challenging. And sure, you in turn can show me all kinds of evidence and studies and what not that show that there is some progress made here and there, now and then. Is that what we want, to be eternally locked in this war? Perhaps you even believe that's all there is, that there's no alterative. I disagree.

I am pro diversity & inclusion and this is the reason why

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CibH4Uugc-b/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

What is this bullshit I'm spewing, that I need to show you my degree or a study to back it up? Please point to it, don't just be an internet idiot, hurr show me your degree durr.

Yes, I 100% agree with this. Which is why I have no problem with the color of The Little Mermaid's skin, but also what bothers me about those reactions. And yes it is a touching reaction, and of course I understand the reasons behind it, and they're very good reasons, but the fact is that those reasons have led to a certain kind of thinking and certain positions that ultimately do more harm than help. And you can call those whatever fancy words you want, but what they really are is quite simply racism, alive and doing very well, thank you.

Again, because they may lead to racism. Racism can sneak in when you have these positions, because they're vague. They don't address the root(s) of racism, only the surface, the symptoms. Thus they actually reinforce racism for those who are already racist, thereby perpetuating the problem. Which may actually be the agenda for the most evil. You may be surprised what people are willing to do for self gain. Or maybe not, in which case you know what I mean.
Imagine that you keep pointing out racism. That is good, because racism exists, and it should be pointed out because it's a problem. But if that's all you do, the thought "well yeah, because racism is true, because racism is correct" may creep in. Specially for those who are already predisposed that way. The fundamental truth that racism is falseand wrongis not nearly pointed out as much as racism.

I don't challenge the reality of such a view. That would be ridiculous, not to mention ignorant.

But it's factually dead wrong. There's no such thing as "racial/ethnic identity" (except in someone's messed up head). That's a load of made up bullshit. Racistmade up bullshit.

I did respond to 208. I don't know what "evidence" you want, I'm just reading the current sociopolitical climate, perhaps you disagree, in which case honestly I'd call you a little naive.