Current Events > Can we talk about hypergamy and 'submissiveness'

(+) Yeah! (+)

I was watching a video from someone in the black manosphere talking about they want a women who is submissive. This type dynamic in relationships is where a man leads, he makes the decisions, and most times he is the breadwinner. The women has to 'submit' by letting the man decide and 'lead'. Also, she has to pamper him.

What do you guys think of that? I see it had some parallels with inceldom.
What you think about hypergamy? This where a women who wants a partner who is making more than them. But it doesn't necessarily means she wants to 'submit' to her partner. Do you think this is cool. Maybe she should consider dating down?

If two people are happy and there is no clear exploitation and no advantage being taken of one or the other, I don't think we have any right to judge what makes others happy.

It makes sense that some people will come to want that from a biological perspective. We just need to make sure we have a society in which everyone realizes that not wanting that isn't a bad thing, so people don't feel the need to shoehorn themselves into unhealthy relationships.

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Lol damn auto-correct

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I mean there's some sort of power dynamic in any interpersonal relationship. it's often in flux though, and it's definitely possible to manage that dynamic

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That's the thing. The peope are saying it is different meaning of submissiveness.

Like instead of telling a women, " male me a sandwich." She finds pleasure of doing it on her own accord. Maybe a sort of appreciation

I like submissive women in the bedroom, but only if they like it too. Dom/sub power dynamics aren't a must for me, although I do have my kinks and preferences.

But outside the bedroom it's kind of a turn-off honestly. I don't want to be "pampered" by my partners. I don't want to have to make all their decisions for them. And I am slightly suspicious of people who promote "traditional" relationship values, since there's usually something else happening under the surface. Not always. But often enough to make me wary.

"Submission" is a word that's thrown around a lot in regards to relationships but is always misused/misunderstood.

Some people think of it as basically having the woman as a slave. It's actually more about trust. If your doing what you're supposed to as a man then your lady will trust you to lead and there's no real discussion about "submitting," as they do it naturally.

It's really cringe and insisting on that type of dynamic is a gigantic red flag. A relationship should be an equal partnership. When you submit yourself to someone else, you're at the mercy of their flaws, both when you're submitting and when you try to stop.

That's exactly why we as a culture moved away from that type of relationship as soon as women had access to jobs, credit, birth control, etc. It's almost always toxic and it's usually based on either false religious ideas or pseudoscience.

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Well that's what the manosphere calls it.
TheOnionKnight posted...

I like submissive women in the bedroom, but only if they like it too. Dom/sub power dynamics aren't a must for me, although I do have my kinks and preferences.

But outside the bedroom it's kind of a turn-off honestly. I don't want to be "pampered" by my partners. I don't want to have to make all their decisions for them. And I am slightly suspicious of people who promote "traditional" relationship values, since there's usually something else happening under the surface. Not always. But often enough to make me wary.

So here's my theory. This ideology comes from the group, the black manosphere, the alphas. There's a huge turn in the black community where black women are the fastest growing group who are getting degrees. Which is leaving black men behind. So like I said women in general dates up, hypergamy. So if the men aren't moving up, they do not want them. So the men who get rejected by them find these groups. Now, this doesn't mean they can't find a women to have sex with. They can So they are not incels. But these men's do not want to look inferior in front of ANY women. Make sense?

legendary_zell posted...

It's really cringe and insisting on that type of dynamic is a gigantic red flag. A relationship should be an equal partnership. When you submit yourself to someone else, you're at the mercy of their flaws, both when you're submitting and when you try to stop.

That's exactly why we as a culture moved away from that type of relationship as soon as women had access to jobs, credit, birth control, etc. It's almost always toxic and it's usually based on either false religious ideas or pseudoscience.

@legendary_zell check the post above.

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Well, they have a few things I agree with. They can get rid of hypergamy. Why is it cool for a man to date down (financially) but not a women.
Some stuff I don't agree with. I don't believe I should make all the decision (even though who I am with, that's kinda to be expected). That type of relationship is harmful. Where you're suppose to be the man. That means you have to be invulnerable and you can't show any other side.

I mean this is a nice fantasy and all but 99% of the time it will never work. First you have to find someone who fits thay personality type, which is incredibly rare. Second, you have to make sure she's attracted to your fat, unattractive ass whuch brings the number down to zero.

This only happens in extremely rich circles where the woman is looking for a sugar daddy type/esque relationship and it falls through after a year or two when her needs are met and she moves on, same for a guy in her position.

For 99% of guys that are average looking, average income having, non-celeb status carrying guys, it is merely a fantasy and will remain one.

omniryu posted...

@legendary_zell check the post above.

That's exactly why it's so cringe. I'm a black man myself and it's sad to see people think like this. Some men think they must be in a position of economic, social, and interpersonal superiority over their partner before they can feel comfortable in the relationship, like they're entitled to dominion or something. They can't be happy that black women are finally getting to rise up to the position they would have had without oppression. I'm going on a date with someone who went to a better school than me and has a more prestigious job on Tuesday. I think nothing of it.

There's a lot of women out there dating men with nothing to offer in comparison from the outside anyway, so hypergamy is not a rule.

JordanStout posted...

Women submit when the man dominates her.

These men who whine that women aren't "submissive" are usually weak beta males that she doesn't take seriously because if a real tough dude ran up on him, he would curl up like a bitch and let the real man take her in the face of violence by the alpha.

Women can smell weakness.. That's why they won't "submit" to a little bench warmer soy boy.

This post seems like something you'd find on r/incel

JordanStout posted...

Women submit when the man dominates her.

These men who whine that women aren't "submissive" are usually weak beta males that she doesn't take seriously because if a real tough dude ran up on him, he would curl up like a bitch and let the real man take her in the face of violence by the alpha.

Women can smell weakness.. That's why they won't "submit" to a little bench warmer soy boy.

Lol, I am sure you're kidding.

legendary_zell posted...

That's exactly why it's so cringe. I'm a black man myself and it's sad to see people think like this. Some men think they must be in a position of economic, social, and interpersonal superiority over their partner before they can feel comfortable in the relationship, like they're entitled to dominion or something. They can't be happy that black women are finally getting to rise up to the position they would have had without oppression. I'm going on a date with someone who went to a better school than me and has a more prestigious job on Tuesday. I think nothing of it.

Yeah to me it is like they can't rely on their personality to carry they part of the relationship.

Yeah, any "manosphere" is probably going to have an unhealthy influence. I'm just an average white dude, so hardly equipped to talk about the "black manosphere," but I have heard some horror stories. Especially from my current girlfriend, who had a few exes who subscribed to these beliefs. They basically treated her like shit, trying to puff up their own self-image, and needless to say it didn't work out very well.

TheOnionKnight posted...

Yeah, any "manosphere" is probably going to have an unhealthy influence. I'm just an average white dude, so hardly equipped to talk about the "black manosphere," but I have heard some horror stories. Especially from my current girlfriend, who had a few exes who subscribed to these beliefs. They basically treated her like shit, trying to puff up their own self-image, and needless to say it didn't work out very well.

this guy on youtube, FD Signifier, does a lot of good analysis of this kind of thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1FkO7Tr70A

averagejoel posted...

this guy on youtube, FD Signifier, does a lot of good analysis of this kind of thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1FkO7Tr70A

YES!!!! . this man speaks nothing but facts! I saw it the other day.

TheOnionKnight posted...

Yeah, any "manosphere" is probably going to have an unhealthy influence. I'm just an average white dude, so hardly equipped to talk about the "black manosphere," but I have heard some horror stories. Especially from my current girlfriend, who had a few exes who subscribed to these beliefs. They basically treated her like shit, trying to puff up their own self-image, and needless to say it didn't work out very well.

Yeah, I am sure it wouldn't work out as I really believe some people want a relationship to hit all the way back to the 1950s. But to me that isn't really worth it. Why would you want a woman who can't keep up with you mentally? Someone who can provide insight on something you never seen before. As far as speaking on black manosphere issues. As long as you get their full context and understanding of what their ideology is I think you can speak on the matter. Like, I feel like I can't speak on incel as I never really delve deep into what their ideology is about. All I know is, they can't get laid and it is society's fault.

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Idk, I think if you go through the whole topic... that is the only guy who agrees with that ideology fully. Unless, you feel like someone who even mention it - regardless if their monolog disagrees with that ideology - is still an incel. I guess but that does more harm than good in my book.

Rathinor posted...

This post seems like something you'd find on r/incel

It's an 11 karma account with 200 posts.

Well I watched that whole video. Could've done without the 30 minutes of Batman analysis at the beginning, but the end was interesting. I might watch the next one if he had to chop it in half, since it felt like the back half might be more informative.

So long as both parties are clear about what they want in the relationship and are satisfied in it then I don't care what they do.
Also this Jordanstout character screams date rapist.

omniryu posted...

Maybe she should consider dating down?

Only if she's the type to whine about not being able to find a man. If you're okay with your situation then whatever standards you have are fine.

If you have a fetish (and it's legal) and you find someone with the same fetish, and you want to live life by that fetish, go ahead.

ScazarMeltex posted...

So long as both parties are clear about what they want in the relationship and are satisfied in it then I don't care what they do.
Also this Jordanstout character screams date rapist.

He deleted the post. I wonder of he was being funny and he knew it sounded creepy.
Hoodroar posted...

Only if she's the type to whine about not being able to find a man. If you're okay with your situation then whatever standards you have are fine.

I suppose it is fair. But to me it just seems like you're reinforcing the tradition of the men must lead.
TheOnionKnight posted...

Well I watched that whole video. Could've done without the 30 minutes of Batman analysis at the beginning, but the end was interesting. I might watch the next one if he had to chop it in half, since it felt like the back half might be more informative.

Yeah, I watch it in parts. Well I mainly listen to it on my drive to and from work time from time. He has one that shows a connection between mass shooter and manosphere. Before i get into trouble, He doesn't say that all manosphere are mass shooter or they are the cause.

Honestly if you want a submissive woman I don't see the problem. Date a submissive woman who wants a dominant man.

I just don't get the "Pushing what you want on others" part of it.

Working at a bank it seems like most of the time the woman is calling the shots and taking any kind of initiative. I can also see in each profile whos the one using the online banking and over the counter channels and who isnt. Usually the woman doing so. To the point where if Im making a financial suggestion Ill initiate it with the wife first. The wife has the bulk of the mental load, coordinating the family and schedule and groceries and bills etc, and the husband is kinda just here as an extra hand and collecting a paycheck.

Guns_of_Verdun posted...

Honestly if you want a submissive woman I don't see the problem. Date a submissive woman who wants a dominant man.

I just don't get the "Pushing what you want on others" part of it.

I feel like it is some form of weakness. Like you want to settle for someone to kiss your feet. Give me someone who can enjoy my company and WE do our fair share.

Guns_of_Verdun posted...

Honestly if you want a submissive woman I don't see the problem. Date a submissive woman who wants a dominant man.

I just don't get the "Pushing what you want on others" part of it.

This basically. The real problem is that most of them don't want a woman who is already submissive and desires that type of dynamic. They want to dominate someone into being submissive. Breaking them down is what really turns them on

Sounds baller as fuck! Who doesn't want to get pampered by a beautiful woman? Making all the decisions would get kinda boring tho >_>

CapnMuffin posted...

Working at a bank it seems like most of the time the woman is calling the shots and taking any kind of initiative. I can also see in each profile whos the one using the online banking and over the counter channels and who isnt. Usually the woman doing so. To the point where if Im making a financial suggestion Ill initiate it with the wife first. The wife has the bulk of the mental load, coordinating the family and schedule and groceries and bills etc, and the husband is kinda just here as an extra hand and collecting a paycheck.

The states is more matriarchal than wr thought.

omniryu posted...

I was watching a video from someone in the black manosphere talking about they want a women who is submissive. This type dynamic in relationships is where a man leads, he makes the decisions, and most times he is the breadwinner. The women has to 'submit' by letting the man decide and 'lead'.

I think a lot of men would like this if they were honest. It's just taboo now

omniryu posted...

Lol, I am sure you're kidding.

That's LivingLegend, who made a topic about how he refused to accept a girl telling him no. So, no, he's probably not.

Seems like this kind of dynamic stems from a lot of insecurity on both sides. Nothing strictly wrong with that, but I'm of the mind that insecurity is something to strive to overcome in life, and that lends itself to more equitable relationships

WorsCaseOntario posted...

I think a lot of men would like this if they were honest. It's just taboo now

Untrue

There is a lot of truth to this. Most women want a guy who they perceive as stronger than and takes the lead in most decisions. It's just a fact. Even with the sexes becoming closer in the modern days, thousands of years of human evolution can't be done un easily. The money thing is kind a borderline though if they make decent money they generally don't care if you make less than they do.

But almost all women want a guy who is stronger physically and mentally to be their emotional rock, make major decisions make them feel good and lead them to a good life. It's unnatural for guys to be submissive to women and unnatural to be to be in an equal partnership. Women want men to be better than in some way deep down even though most won't admit it.

Slayerblade11 posted...

There is a lot of truth to this. Most women want a guy who they perceive as stronger than and takes the lead in most decisions. It's just a fact. Even with the sexes becoming closer in the modern days, thousands of years of human evolution can't be done un easily. The money thing is kind a borderline though if they make decent money they generally don't care if you make less than they do.

But almost all women want a guy who is stronger physically and mentally to be their emotional rock, make major decisions make them feel good and lead them to a good life. It's unnatural for guys to be submissive to women and unnatural to be to be in an equal partnership. Women want men to be better than in some way deep down even though most won't admit it.

You're right about women being more likely to be superficial regarding security of any kind, but that does not mean the same thing as submissiveness.

I think the assertion that a man must lead the woman in a relationship and women universally want this is messed. Some men really aren't naturally that way, and this effectively tells that they are destined to be alone unless they fundamentally change their nature. There are also women who would be happy being the more dominant partner in a relationship.

Nothing inherently wrong with that dynamic, lots of girls like it too. It's only an issue when people try to push the idea that everyone must fit this mold. Usually, that idea is followed with "anyone who doesn't is wrong and must be corrected" and "the liberal media"

DeathVelvien posted...

That's LivingLegend, who made a topic about how he refused to accept a girl telling him no. So, no, he's probably not.

Oh that's Hella creepy.
warlock7735 posted...

Seems like this kind of dynamic stems from a lot of insecurity on both sides. Nothing strictly wrong with that, but I'm of the mind that insecurity is something to strive to overcome in life, and that lends itself to more equitable relationships

I think on the female side. It is more of not wanting to have work consume their life. Have a financially safe and sound steady income. She could just don't want be bother by the daily mundane task of life and all the planning.