Current Events > Pokemon has way too many luck based mechanics to be a good competitive game

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Scintillant 06/13/22 8:50:48 AM #1:	Miss chance, status effects (sleep/paralysis/freeze especially), critical hits, speed ties Just not good --- whats cat up to <cite>Scintillant posted [p:965772916] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Miss chance, status effects (sleep/paralysis/freeze especially), critical hits, speed ties Just not good </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kim_Seong-a 06/13/22 9:52:31 AM #2:	Eh, the only one of those that's arguably counter-intuitive to a competitive environment is crit chance, since you can't plan around or manipulate it to the same degree that you can everything else. (I unironically preferred the Gen 1 mechanics where it was tied to speed). Everything else is just balancing risk/reward. Do you run Flame Thrower or Fire Blast, etc. Speed ties can't really be managed in-battle but it's a consideration in team building. --- Lusa Cfaad Taydr <cite>Kim_Seong-a posted [p:965773850] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Eh, the only one of those that's arguably counter-intuitive to a competitive environment is crit chance, since you can't plan around or manipulate it to the same degree that you can everything else. (I unironically preferred the Gen 1 mechanics where it was tied to speed). Everything else is just balancing risk/reward. Do you run Flame Thrower or Fire Blast, etc. Speed ties can't really be managed in-battle but it's a consideration in team building. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CableZL 06/13/22 9:55:08 AM #3:	I would argue that the plethora of luck-based mechanics makes it even better, so you can't just choose a set team and win 100% of the time. --- https://i.imgtc.com/d9Fc4Qq.gif https://i.imgtc.com/BKHTxYq.gif https://i.imgtc.com/vYYIuDx.jpg <cite>CableZL posted [p:965773890] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>I would argue that the plethora of luck-based mechanics makes it even better, so you can't just choose a set team and win 100% of the time. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EyeWontBeFooled 06/13/22 9:56:08 AM #4:	CableZL posted... I would argue that the plethora of luck-based mechanics makes it even better, so you can't just choose a set team and win 100% of the time. --- You really think this is a sig you're reading? <cite>EyeWontBeFooled posted [p:965773904] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>CableZL posted... </cite> <quote>I would argue that the plethora of luck-based mechanics makes it even better, so you can't just choose a set team and win 100% of the time.</quote> </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Alpha218 06/13/22 9:59:19 AM #5:	Really the one that needs to be reworked is Freeze (replace it with Frostbite from Legends). Literally nobody likes Freeze existing. --- I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite user on the Citadel. https://discord.gg/vzpsef2tJc - Join us for games \|\| https://bit.ly/39z7PHA - YouTube <cite>Alpha218 posted [p:965773960] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Really the one that needs to be reworked is Freeze (replace it with Frostbite from Legends). Literally nobody likes Freeze existing. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jagr_68 06/13/22 10:06:47 AM #6:	Knew this ever since R/B/Y actually but it was not a bad thing either when chance would work in your favor just as well. That's why there's no such thing as "difficulty" in Pokemon. --- New York Rangers [2004-2008] https://media.giphy.com/media/WvQHBYW0q4TuxdAg61/giphy.gif https://psnprofiles.com/Jaromiroquai68 <cite>Jagr_68 posted [p:965774089] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Knew this ever since R/B/Y actually but it was not a bad thing either when chance would work in your favor just as well. That's why there's no such thing as "difficulty" in Pokemon. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Guide 06/14/22 4:18:50 PM #7:	It'd be fine if sets were larger, like with poker, but they're not. For all the planning that goes into VGCs, so much is decided by lucky statuses. --- evening main 2.4356848e+91 https://youtu.be/Acn5IptKWQU <cite>Guide posted [p:965812421] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>It'd be fine if sets were larger, like with poker, but they're not. For all the planning that goes into VGCs, so much is decided by lucky statuses. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Collat 06/14/22 4:22:56 PM #8:	Are there any turn based games that don't make a lot of use of them? Most of Pokemon, you can just over level to make it a non-issue anyway. <cite>Collat posted [p:965812548] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Are there any turn based games that don't make a lot of use of them? Most of Pokemon, you can just over level to make it a non-issue anyway. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Guide 06/14/22 4:24:41 PM #9:	@Collat tc's talking competitive --- evening main 2.4356848e+91 https://youtu.be/Acn5IptKWQU <cite>Guide posted [p:965812595] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>@Collat tc's talking competitive </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ElatedVenusaur 06/14/22 4:34:32 PM #10:	CableZL posted... I would argue that the plethora of luck-based mechanics makes it even better, so you can't just choose a set team and win 100% of the time. Yeah, it keeps it from being dull. Rather than knowing that X will always result in Y, you also have to have a contingency for it resulting in Z or A or whatever else. 4 moveslots also insure that Pokemon are limited: otherwise Pokemon with baller movepools would be even better than they already are. Something like Blissey or Clefable or Greninja would benefit immensely from more move slots, something like Serperior has four useable moves and one or two that you'll never click. The way crits work also helps to discourage turtling, as crits ignore the target's defense boosts. Edit: That last bit reminds me of the little battle scenarios Pokemon XD has, some of which rely on exploiting niche rules like crits ignoring defense boosts to clear. --- I'm Queen of Tomorrow baby! Remember: heat from fire, fire from heat! She/her <cite>ElatedVenusaur posted [p:965812881] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>CableZL posted... </cite> <quote>I would argue that the plethora of luck-based mechanics makes it even better, so you can't just choose a set team and win 100% of the time.</quote>Yeah, it keeps it from being dull. Rather than knowing that X will always result in Y, you also have to have a contingency for it resulting in Z or A or whatever else. 4 moveslots also insure that Pokemon are limited: otherwise Pokemon with baller movepools would be even better than they already are. Something like Blissey or Clefable or Greninja would benefit immensely from more move slots, something like Serperior has four useable moves and one or two that you'll never click. The way crits work also helps to discourage turtling, as crits ignore the target's defense boosts. Edit: That last bit reminds me of the little battle scenarios Pokemon XD has, some of which rely on exploiting niche rules like crits ignoring defense boosts to clear. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
FL81 06/14/22 5:31:19 PM #11:	unban evasion boosts --- Thanks to Proofpyros for the sig images https://i.imgur.com/Nv4Pi1v.jpg https://i.imgur.com/N43HJYv.jpg <cite>FL81 posted [p:965814292] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>unban evasion boosts </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Illuminoius 06/14/22 5:33:34 PM #12:	that's probably why it was never meant to be one and that it's ridiculous that the fanbase tries to turn it into one <cite>Illuminoius posted [p:965814356] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>that's probably why it was never meant to be one and that it's ridiculous that the fanbase tries to turn it into one </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Sexypwnstar 06/14/22 5:34:37 PM #13:	Anyone have that Pokemon is more complex than Chess pasta? --- http://i.imgur.com/Su4g5.jpg http://i.imgur.com/21DiJ.jpg <cite>Sexypwnstar posted [p:965814383] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Anyone have that Pokemon is more complex than Chess pasta? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lunar_Savage 06/14/22 5:34:43 PM #14:	CableZL posted... I would argue that the plethora of luck-based mechanics makes it even better, so you can't just choose a set team and win 100% of the time. This. The idea behind Pokemon is that you stand a chance to win with your favorites. Not just because they hold superior stats or a better move set. Strategize to win, not "hur dur, higher numbers clobbers, I win! har har!" --- Number of Mega Cookies given: (::::) 36 Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with a cane. And yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb <cite>Lunar_Savage posted [p:965814386] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>CableZL posted... </cite> <quote>I would argue that the plethora of luck-based mechanics makes it even better, so you can't just choose a set team and win 100% of the time.</quote> This. The idea behind Pokemon is that you stand a chance to win with your favorites. Not just because they hold superior stats or a better move set. Strategize to win, not "hur dur, higher numbers clobbers, I win! har har!" </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kimbos_Egg 06/14/22 5:41:54 PM #16:	[LFAQs-redacted-quote] dumbest shit i've ever heard. Until we got games pumped out specifically to be "esports" no game was meant to be "competitive". --- You think you've Got problems? https://imgur.com/OnEOsdT <cite>Kimbos_Egg posted [p:965814534] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote><cite>[LFAQs-redacted-quote]</cite> dumbest shit i've ever heard. Until we got games pumped out specifically to be "esports" no game was meant to be "competitive". </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Collat 06/14/22 5:46:21 PM #17:	Guide posted... @Collat tc's talking competitive Still don't really know how well it would work without the element of randomness. Sounds boring as fuck and every battle would pretty much play out the exact same. <cite>Collat posted [p:965814627] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Guide posted... </cite> <quote>@Collat tc's talking competitive</quote>Still don't really know how well it would work without the element of randomness. Sounds boring as fuck and every battle would pretty much play out the exact same. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
KhlavicLanguage 06/14/22 5:52:10 PM #18:	Kimbos_Egg posted... Until we got games pumped out specifically to be "esports" no game was meant to be "competitive". well obviously some games are much better suited for it than others. anyone who's played counter-strike or dota can clearly see why trying to chop up pokemon down to the competitively-viable bits just looks silly. <cite>KhlavicLanguage posted [p:965814769] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Kimbos_Egg posted... </cite> <quote>Until we got games pumped out specifically to be "esports" no game was meant to be "competitive".</quote>well obviously some games are much better suited for it than others. anyone who's played counter-strike or dota can clearly see why trying to chop up pokemon down to the competitively-viable bits just looks silly. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
KhlavicLanguage 06/14/22 5:52:52 PM #19:	Collat posted... Still don't really know how well it would work without the element of randomness. Sounds boring as fuck and every battle would pretty much play out the exact same. then it's an easily solved game that shouldn't be played competitively considering its background as a game for literal children designed to sell toys and merch, this isn't totally out of left field <cite>KhlavicLanguage posted [p:965814793] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Collat posted... </cite> <quote>Still don't really know how well it would work without the element of randomness. Sounds boring as fuck and every battle would pretty much play out the exact same.</quote>then it's an easily solved game that shouldn't be played competitively considering its background as a game for literal children designed to sell toys and merch, this isn't totally out of left field </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
rideshort 06/14/22 6:02:01 PM #20:	I'm okay with how it is. As long as Souble Team/Minimize/Evasion boosts stay banned. --- I believe in the Golden Rule and you should too! http://i.imgur.com/63HCN.gif http://i.imgur.com/aaTUdOx.jpg <cite>rideshort posted [p:965815013] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>I'm okay with how it is. As long as Souble Team/Minimize/Evasion boosts stay banned. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
gamer167 06/14/22 6:04:07 PM #21:	They should bring back gen 1 wrap <cite>gamer167 posted [p:965815055] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>They should bring back gen 1 wrap</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Guide 06/14/22 6:08:49 PM #22:	Collat posted... Still don't really know how well it would work without the element of randomness. Sounds boring as fuck and every battle would pretty much play out the exact same. Lots of competitive games have a minimum of random factors and don't play out the same, but I'm not even arguing that. It's just that so many of the random factors are low enough, on an average turn count low enough, that you can't actually count on them happening. It's banking on getting lucky. Which, again, is fine over enough rounds. Just enough rounds aren't really played. VGC champs got there by being good, yes, but they won those championships with an immense factor of luck. --- evening main 2.4356848e+91 https://youtu.be/Acn5IptKWQU <cite>Guide posted [p:965815166] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Collat posted... </cite> <quote>Still don't really know how well it would work without the element of randomness. Sounds boring as fuck and every battle would pretty much play out the exact same.</quote> Lots of competitive games have a minimum of random factors and don't play out the same, but I'm not even arguing that. It's just that so many of the random factors are low enough, on an average turn count low enough, that you can't actually count on them happening. It's banking on getting lucky. Which, again, is fine over enough rounds. Just enough rounds aren't really played. VGC champs got there by being good, yes, but they won those championships with an immense factor of luck. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Collat 06/14/22 6:38:27 PM #23:	KhlavicLanguage posted... then it's an easily solved game that shouldn't be played competitively considering its background as a game for literal children designed to sell toys and merch, this isn't totally out of left field Not really the point I'm making. People can play it that way if they want. Guide posted... Lots of competitive games have a minimum of random factors and don't play out the same, but I'm not even arguing that. It's just that so many of the random factors are low enough, on an average turn count low enough, that you can't actually count on them happening. Most of those are not turn based though. Removing random elements from a fighting game for example makes a bit more sense. I'd think of it more like a card game. You can be skilled at it, and form strategies, but there is a lot of luck involved. <cite>Collat posted [p:965815886] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>KhlavicLanguage posted... </cite> <quote>then it's an easily solved game that shouldn't be played competitively considering its background as a game for literal children designed to sell toys and merch, this isn't totally out of left field</quote>Not really the point I'm making. People can play it that way if they want. Guide posted... </cite> <quote>Lots of competitive games have a minimum of random factors and don't play out the same, but I'm not even arguing that. It's just that so many of the random factors are low enough, on an average turn count low enough, that you can't actually count on them happening.</quote>Most of those are not turn based though. Removing random elements from a fighting game for example makes a bit more sense. I'd think of it more like a card game. You can be skilled at it, and form strategies, but there is a lot of luck involved. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Spidey5 06/14/22 7:02:24 PM #25:	ElatedVenusaur posted... Edit: That last bit reminds me of the little battle scenarios Pokemon XD has, some of which rely on exploiting niche rules like crits ignoring defense boosts to clear. I will never not be triggered by the metronome only battle in XD. Pure chance yet I lost 10 times in a row lmao --- http://card.psnprofiles.com/1/Strangeone2007.png http://i.imgur.com/wfUGrp5.gif <cite>Spidey5 posted [p:965816527] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>ElatedVenusaur posted... </cite> <quote>Edit: That last bit reminds me of the little battle scenarios Pokemon XD has, some of which rely on exploiting niche rules like crits ignoring defense boosts to clear.</quote>I will never not be triggered by the metronome only battle in XD. Pure chance yet I lost 10 times in a row lmao </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dragon239 06/14/22 7:13:02 PM #26:	[LFAQs-redacted-quote] ? Do you mean Smash? I believe there's only like a few "rules" they really stick to (like no items) & they're supported by the game by the rules editor. At worst, stages being banned/not is the biggest thing, I think? Characters have only been banned like once (Meta Knight in Brawl) and it was for a limited time (months? unsure), also in a Smash commonly considered one of the worst by the competitive community. --- http://i.imgur.com/nkZgO.jpg <cite>Dragon239 posted [p:965816768] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote><cite>[LFAQs-redacted-quote]</cite> ? Do you mean Smash? I believe there's only like a few "rules" they really stick to (like no items) & they're supported by the game by the rules editor. At worst, stages being banned/not is the biggest thing, I think? Characters have only been banned like once (Meta Knight in Brawl) and it was for a limited time (months? unsure), also in a Smash commonly considered one of the worst by the competitive community. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Collat 06/14/22 7:17:24 PM #27:	Kimbos_Egg posted... dumbest shit i've ever heard. Until we got games pumped out specifically to be "esports" no game was meant to be "competitive". I'd even argue that the ones not made to be esports are more entertaining. I kind of like it more when it happens organically. Looks really bad when a game designed to be an esport fails to build a competitive scene too. (Eg. Battleborn and All-Star Brawl) <cite>Collat posted [p:965816866] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Kimbos_Egg posted... </cite> <quote>dumbest shit i've ever heard. Until we got games pumped out specifically to be "esports" no game was meant to be "competitive".</quote> I'd even argue that the ones not made to be esports are more entertaining. I kind of like it more when it happens organically. Looks really bad when a game designed to be an esport fails to build a competitive scene too. (Eg. Battleborn and All-Star Brawl) </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Guide 06/14/22 7:56:45 PM #28:	[LFAQs-redacted-quote] I guess SF2 should never have had tournaments, since vanilla had handcuffs and ST had Akuma. --- evening main 2.4356848e+91 https://youtu.be/Acn5IptKWQU <cite>Guide posted [p:965817786] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote><cite>[LFAQs-redacted-quote]</cite> I guess SF2 should never have had tournaments, since vanilla had handcuffs and ST had Akuma. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
KhlavicLanguage 06/14/22 9:35:32 PM #29:	Guide posted... I guess SF2 should never have had tournaments, since vanilla had handcuffs and ST had Akuma. sf2 community rules were a tiny fraction of what has to be done to pokemon to make it even remotely competitive horrible comparison lmao <cite>KhlavicLanguage posted [p:965820119] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>Guide posted... </cite> <quote>I guess SF2 should never have had tournaments, since vanilla had handcuffs and ST had Akuma.</quote>sf2 community rules were a tiny fraction of what has to be done to pokemon to make it even remotely competitive horrible comparison lmao </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Guide 06/15/22 5:02:57 PM #30:	KhlavicLanguage posted... sf2 community rules were a tiny fraction of what has to be done to pokemon to make it even remotely competitive horrible comparison lmao ~~he said smash, not pokemon~~ --- evening main 2.4356848e+91 https://youtu.be/Acn5IptKWQU <cite>Guide posted [p:965840068] in Pokemon ha... [t:80055788]...</cite> <quote>KhlavicLanguage posted... </cite> <quote>sf2 community rules were a tiny fraction of what has to be done to pokemon to make it even remotely competitive horrible comparison lmao</quote> he said smash, not pokemon </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > Pokemon has way too many luck based mechanics to be a good competitive game (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > Pokemon has way too many luck based mechanics to be a good competitive game