Current Events > Current Events, I think I'm nonbinary, but I'm married with children

(+) Yeah! (+)

I know having this username and making this sort of topic sort of unbelievable (particularly for anyone whos been around long enough to remember my prolix Decadent phase).

I dont know.

My first thought is that I know Im ageing and as I get older Im looking more and more like a little hairy goblin than (and I love this phrase from Community) a happy pansexual imp. Turn of phrase I guess that conflates sexuality with gender, but I like it. Ive always been attracted more to personality than gender, so it still fits, I guess?

When I was in my early 20s (and a bit in my mid-late 20s) I was a willowy little thing with slim hips, toned muscles. Broad shoulders, but I was often mistaken for a girl, particularly from the back or if Id shaved. Which is weird, because Ive *always* had a depressingly masculine jawline.

I got groped once at a music festival. I think Ive mentioned it before, mainly because of the groupers extremely horrified reaction when he realised hed tried to wedge his fingers into the buttcrack of a dude. Aside from the outrage of sexual assault, there was the vindictive glee that he ended up more horrified than I. There was also a weird sort of, I dont know, pure delight he thought I was a girl.

I remember watching Placebo on Top of the Pops when I was 14. I was conflicted. It was a three way battle between wanting to *be* Brian Molko when he was in his super androgynous phase, being attracted to Brian Molko, and thinking both were wrong because. Meanwhile, my dad was expressing his disgust at allowing acts like *that* on TV. Strong words, because Im pretty sure he was having an affair with Spider-Man.

I know Ive only talked about *aesthetics*. I dont know, Ive hated my body forever and there is always something wrong with it. I used to be a little bit manorexic. When I was skinny, it wasnt skinny enough. Im sort of comfortable, but not really nowadays, when Ive got a dad bod. It really is a dad bod though, nowadays Ive got eyebrows I need to trim for length so I dont look like Gandalf, my nostrils and ears look like Ive got a hedgehog up them and my backs a disasterpiece of hair. I just wish Id appreciated when I was epicene.

Now Im just some fat hairy shit who thinks he might be non-binary, at which point does it really matter?

I probably just sound incredibly shallow and shitty, but I dont know. I have never strongly identified with either masculine or feminine identities. I know I would absolutely, completely and utterly fail any *aesthetic* standards I held for myself.

I know aesthetics are just a tiny part of it, but I dont know, Id just feel like I was playing pretend at and an interloper in something else in my life.

Its all moot though, when its all said and done, because Ive got a wife and kids, and I dont want to put them through some neurotic identity crisis.

You read through this, so heres something for your time. My fave song in Year 12:
https://youtu.be/Cy1LdAaGASw

I wish I was Cherry Lips, but Ill probably always just be Dennis Learys Asshole

It sounds like you have good reasons to believe this about yourself. Embrace in ways that you feel comfortable with right now and see how it makes you feel.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I dont think Im trans, though.

I dont think Im a woman, but I also dont think Im a man. Despite reality smacking me in the face with an ever so slowly receding hairline and the capacity to grow a beard thatd make a Cossack blush, and other evidence besides.

Pogo_Marimo posted...

It sounds like you have good reasons to believe this about yourself. Embrace in ways that you feel comfortable with right now and see how it makes you feel.

Thats the thing though, its a fairly moot point considering I have kids. We dont exactly live in an area known for its inclusiveness, if you get me.

The Creep has a wife and kids???

Holy shit, I'm old!

The_Creep_2020 posted...

I dont think Im trans, though.

I dont think Im a woman, but I also dont think Im a man.

Nonbinary is a flavor of trans, so to speak. Doesn't necessarily always mean MtF or FtM

_CARLOX_ posted...

The Creep has a wife and kids???

Holy shit, I'm old!

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi, right?

Gwynevere posted...

Nonbinary is a flavor of trans, so to speak. Doesn't necessarily always mean MtF or FtM

Yeah, "trans" just denotes that you're not your AGAB (Assigned Gender at Birth). People assume it necessarily involves transitioning, but that isn't the case.

And only you can define what that means to you, TC.

Gwynevere posted...

Nonbinary is a flavor of trans, so to speak. Doesn't necessarily always mean MtF or FtM

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


ElatedVenusaur posted...

Yeah, "trans" just denotes that you're not your AGAB (Assigned Gender at Birth). People assume it necessarily involves transitioning, but that isn't the case.

And only you can define what that means to you, TC.

Ah, I see. Thank you three for the correction - its something Im not entirely familiar with and I dont want to be presumptuous about any terms I use.

Edit: missed EV between starting the reply and posting.

Ok, I need to go to bed now.

Thank you very much, everyone whos responded to this braindump of a topic.

I have a lot to think about, I think (ha!)

Ill respond to anyone who posts between now and when I wake up, either thoughtfully or in a wonderfully acerbic manner. Whichever is most appropriate.

Ive gotta say though, I was sort of expecting some flippant or downright abrasive responses. You surprised me, CE. In a good way.

The_Creep_2020 posted...

Ah, I see. Thank you three for the correction - its something Im not entirely familiar with and I dont want to be presumptuous about any terms I use.

Don't worry, it's new territory for pretty much any of us old fucks that are questioning our genders lol. Never had a reason to deep dive into the terminology when I was convinced I was cis

Oh and yeah, just do what feels right to you. At the end of the day your identity is how you choose to present in a way that makes you feel comfortable.

Have you tried having a conversation with your wife? You may find that she is more astute than you are giving her credit for. Even if not, its not fair to yourself to pretend to be someone youre not.

I know you said you live in a not-so-inclusive area, but is counseling an option? Perhaps online?

all this imp talk sounds like you might one of them otherkins

Pogo_Marimo posted...

It sounds like you have good reasons to believe this about yourself. Embrace in ways that you feel comfortable with right now and see how it makes you feel.

This right here.

The_Creep_2020 posted...

Thats the thing though, its a fairly moot point considering I have kids. We dont exactly live in an area known for its inclusiveness, if you get me.

*sigh* yeah, I get you. It makes me unspeakably sad to, but yeah.

Gwynevere posted...

Don't worry, it's new territory for pretty much any of us old fucks that are questioning our genders lol. Never had a reason to deep dive into the terminology when I was convinced I was cis

Oh and yeah, just do what feels right to you. At the end of the day your identity is how you choose to present in a way that makes you feel comfortable.

That makes perfect sense, thank you once again.

DespondentDeity posted...

all this imp talk sounds like you might one of them otherkins

I had a pun lined up involving kobolds and knockers, but I lost it. Nah, just a probably unhealthy contempt for my body.

Sariana21 posted...

Have you tried having a conversation with your wife? You may find that she is more astute than you are giving her credit for. Even if not, its not fair to yourself to pretend to be someone youre not.

I know you said you live in a not-so-inclusive area, but is counseling an option? Perhaps online?

My wife tends to know me better than I know myself most days, so it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest.

I think this is something Id think about fairly well before I spoke to her about it. Figure out where the edges are to the puzzle first so to speak, rather than start up a conversation about some fairly inchoate feelings.

The_Creep_2020 posted...

My wife tends to know me better than I know myself most days, so it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest.

I think this is something Id think about fairly well before I spoke to her about it. Figure out where the edges are to the puzzle first so to speak, rather than start up a conversation about some fairly inchoate feelings.

Yeah, I definitely recommend seeking to better define things for yourself before you engage with others on it. You'll just confuse her (and yourself, possibly) if you try to tell her without having any sense of what you're telling her.

I can tell you that I know four non-binary people, which is quite a few. And each of them is completely different in presentation. Three are AFAB and the AMAB one is the femmer than all of them.
Basically, a quick rundown:

-One is a squirrel-like caffeine fiend with long hair and noticeable biceps who wears lots of flannel. They seem to fluctuate through gender states: sometimes they feel femme, sometimes they feel masc, sometimes they're in-between.

-One is a flamboyant dresser with curves who laments that their body's only flaw is its lack of a penis. They love to wear blazers, dress shirts, and ties, exclusively in the loudest, kitschiest colors imaginable. They love jewelry, fragrances, and eye makeup that is similarly loud and kitschy. This all fits their forceful yet goofy personality like a glove.

-One looks super feminine but basically gives off no discernible gender at all. They mostly wear jeans with expensive-looking chains and flannel shirts: the go-to AFAB way of being unfeminine, it seems. They're quiet but trust me because I'm trans and I've had a number of interesting conversations with them since transferring to their department. They lament their inability to gain weight of any kind.

-AMAB enby just got bottom surgery, making me all jelly. I would describe their style as slightly femme comfortcore. They can't wait to wear all of the leggings. They were like my trans Virgil.

i dont really have anything else to add that others havent said, but Im always available for questions or whatnot if you wanna talk about trans stuff.

Youre a peacock, you gotta let yourself fly!

I'm nonbinary or agender or something along those lines. I've just never felt any particular attachment to my body; to me it's just a meatsuit that the real "me" (whatever form you think that might take) happens to reside in. I have the male body and male appearances, but I don't care what anyone refers to me as; I've gotten nothing out of it when I'm mistaken for female, which generally only happens online when they don't know me and can't see me anyway.

I'm technically trans (as pointed out, it just means you're not cis), but as was also pointed out, transition isn't something all trans people go through. Not everyone can even do it safely depending on their environment, and it won't necessarily fix everyone's problems either. I have no desire to transition to anything (socially, physically, or otherwise) because I already know it wouldn't do any good. There's nothing I could transition to that would magically make me think "oh yeah, this is right" so why go through the bother?

Its all moot though, when its all said and done, because Ive got a wife and kids, and I dont want to put them through some neurotic identity crisis.

It isn't like you need to stop being a father (or a parent, if you decide "father" isn't right). Having people on your side backing you up when you're going through any sort of difficult time is basically, at its core, the reason most people form a family unit in the first place.

I dont think its a neuroses or a crisis, just noticed that phrasing and I think everyone has those kind of doubts or thoughts of like, oh man if I come out Im gonna be such a burden. You deserve to live as yourself, and I think regardless of your environment you will probably find support through your family. Also just saying but I did have a little bit of recession in my hairline and the estrogen is fixing me right up, so thats a thing.

I dont think of coming out as expressing intention to become someone else, but more as clarifying the parameters of what I already am and always have been.

Heres cute picture from FB

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/1/9/AAP2ssAADRWv.jpg

ElatedVenusaur posted...

Yeah, I definitely recommend seeking to better define things for yourself before you engage with others on it. You'll just confuse her (and yourself, possibly) if you try to tell her without having any sense of what you're telling her.

I can tell you that I know four non-binary people, which is quite a few. And each of them is completely different in presentation. Three are AFAB and the AMAB one is the femmer than all of them.
Basically, a quick rundown:

-One is a squirrel-like caffeine fiend with long hair and noticeable biceps who wears lots of flannel. They seem to fluctuate through gender states: sometimes they feel femme, sometimes they feel masc, sometimes they're in-between.

-One is a flamboyant dresser with curves who laments that their body's only flaw is its lack of a penis. They love to wear blazers, dress shirts, and ties, exclusively in the loudest, kitschiest colors imaginable. They love jewelry, fragrances, and eye makeup that is similarly loud and kitschy. This all fits their forceful yet goofy personality like a glove.

-One looks super feminine but basically gives off no discernible gender at all. They mostly wear jeans with expensive-looking chains and flannel shirts: the go-to AFAB way of being unfeminine, it seems. They're quiet but trust me because I'm trans and I've had a number of interesting conversations with them since transferring to their department. They lament their inability to gain weight of any kind.

-AMAB enby just got bottom surgery, making me all jelly. I would describe their style as slightly femme comfortcore. They can't wait to wear all of the leggings. They were like my trans Virgil.

Thank you for sharing those examples of non-binary people you know. Its definitely food for thought.

greyfox747 posted...

i dont really have anything else to add that others havent said, but Im always available for questions or whatnot if you wanna talk about trans stuff.

Youre a peacock, you gotta let yourself fly!

Thank you, I appreciate the offer!

Philip027 posted...

I'm nonbinary or agender or something along those lines. I've just never felt any particular attachment to my body; to me it's just a meatsuit that the real "me" (whatever form you think that might take) happens to reside in. I have the male body and male appearances, but I don't care what anyone refers to me as; I've gotten nothing out of it when I'm mistaken for female, which generally only happens online when they don't know me and can't see me anyway.

I'm technically trans (as pointed out, it just means you're not cis), but as was also pointed out, transition isn't something all trans people go through. Not everyone can even do it safely depending on their environment, and it won't necessarily fix everyone's problems either. I have no desire to transition to anything (socially, physically, or otherwise) because I already know it wouldn't do any good. There's nothing I could transition to that would magically make me think "oh yeah, this is right" so why go through the bother?

It isn't like you need to stop being a father (or a parent, if you decide "father" isn't right). Having people on your side backing you up when you're going through any sort of difficult time is basically, at its core, the reason most people form a family unit in the first place.

I can definitely identify with your first paragraph, its very much how I feel. Theres a Regurgitator song with the lyrics all I am and all Ill ever be is just a brain in a body. (Just Another Beautiful Story - great song). Thats always resonated with me.

Yeah, Im not sure what I could do/want to do transitioning-wise. I think thats another area Id need to revisit once I get my ideas more sorted out. Before the COVID kilos and working from home, I had a fairly masculine but flamboyantly dark style - I dont think I own a single plain shirt. Id probably still lean into that. At which point Im asking myself why is this something Im even thinking about. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, dresses like a duck and acts like a duck its probably a very stretched metaphor.

I dont think Id stop being a parent/father/ whatever, I wouldnt give that up in a million years. I love my kids and my wife, they mean the absolute world to me. Its more that I dont want to be the cause for any bullying at school. We live in an area with a lot of people with more traditional read: fairly regressive viewpoints.

DespondentDeity posted...

I dont think its a neuroses or a crisis, just noticed that phrasing and I think everyone has those kind of doubts or thoughts of like, oh man if I come out Im gonna be such a burden. You deserve to live as yourself, and I think regardless of your environment you will probably find support through your family. Also just saying but I did have a little bit of recession in my hairline and the estrogen is fixing me right up, so thats a thing.

I dont think of coming out as expressing intention to become someone else, but more as clarifying the parameters of what I already am and always have been.

Heres cute picture from FB

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/1/9/AAP2ssAADRWv.jpg

To be fair, I am fairly neurotic, so chances are any approach I to something therell be a given value of neuroses I bring to anything. Lol.

I know my mum would be supportive. My wife, Im fairly sure would be, but I dont know. Shes definitely an LGBTQI+ ally, but could be a bit different when the person youve married suddenly announced something that would redefine the relationship in some ways?

I definitely wouldnt be trying to become someone else, Ive spent a long time trying to learn to be comfortable with who I am, so itd be a waste of time and effort to throw all of that away, lol.

I love that picture. Those two frogs are *very* familiar.

Nah, you're trans. Be trans.

Its more that I dont want to be the cause for any bullying at school.

Is there something about your appearance (that these prospective bullies would actually see/notice) that you would want to change? Because it's not like just because you realize that you're NB that you necessarily need to change anything about the way you present yourself.

Even then, bullies are kind of shit. They'll always find some reason to pick on other kids, regardless of what kind of parents they have. You wouldn't be the "cause"

The_Creep_2020 posted...

We dont exactly live in an area known for its inclusiveness, if you get me.

You'd be surprised - I ways just in Newcastle for a week and I saw plenty of non-gender conforming people walking the streets. If somewhere like Newcastle's fine with enby's, I can't imagine it would be too difficult to find other communities around the country.

Granted, there are NOT many NB bears around. Put the beard, belly and body hair to use and be an ambassador!

What would coming out look like? Like, are there currently things you want to do you feel you can't? Like even something like wearing a dress in public?

Or do you just want to no longer be referred to as a man or known as a man? Do you hate having male genitalia?

I don't conform to many male stereotypes, but that's because I think gender norms are archaic and dumb. I've never felt the need to get into a fight, or be aggressive in any setting. And I could list more. But I don't even know what feeling like a man is supposed to feel like, can't I just be a non masculine man? I like being referred to as a man, but who knows if that's because society has conditioned me to do that?

I guess main question is, is a change in how you present to the world even necessary - I ask because you're saying you don't feel like a woman or a man in post #4

I hope you find the answers you're looking for, and if you do tell your wife you think you're non binary, she just says "that's awesome " and nothing about your relationship changes

Rikatika posted...

You'd be surprised - I ways just in Newcastle for a week and I saw plenty of non-gender conforming people walking the streets. If somewhere like Newcastle's fine with enby's, I can't imagine it would be too difficult to find other communities around the country.

Granted, there are NOT many NB bears around. Put the beard, belly and body hair to use and be an ambassador!

Which Newcastle?

I am not really bear material, too short. In my current physical state (which Ive started doing things about) Id perhaps be a honey badger? Sanglier, maybe? My go-to look when Im not trying to grow my hair long (and inevitably giving up) is an enclippered scalp to about 2mm, with permanent stubble to a few days growth because my skin is like wet tissue paper and looks worse if I try to shave daily.

So, does this change anything for you?

The_Creep_2020 posted...

Which Newcastle?

I am not really bear material, too short. In my current physical state (which Ive started doing things about) Id perhaps be a honey badger? Sanglier, maybe? My go-to look when Im not trying to grow my hair long (and inevitably giving up) is an enclippered scalp to about 2mm, with permanent stubble to a few days growth because my skin is like wet tissue paper and looks worse if I try to shave daily.

Nothing wrong with a pocket bear. And the main Newcastle; I can never remember if it's Tyme or Lyme

I hope being able to rant on it a bit got some weight off your chest, at least.

Im gonna save this from purginating, you know, for pride!

Ok I know I'm focusing on the wrong thing here but what's that about your father having an affair with Spider-Man? He knows Toby Maguire or Peter Parker?

31Veteran posted...

Ok I know I'm focusing on the wrong thing here but what's that about your father having an affair with Spider-Man? He knows Toby Maguire or Peter Parker?

Its a long, weird story.

Ive posted about it before, but eh. Its fucking hilarious in retrospect.

Basically, when I was a little kid my dad had a friend hed say was Spider-Man. When my mum had things she had to do on a weekend sometimes, my dad would take me to visit Spider-Man at his home office.

Spider-Man would set me up at his computer with a videogame (I remember Xenon 2, in particular, as well as Advanced Tactical Fighter 2 and SimCity.) I think SimCity had a binder with copy protection codes you needed to enter to stop disasters from destroying your city.

Anyway, after I was comfortably ensconced with a computer game, Spider-Man and my dad would go into his bedroom to strategise.

I wasnt allowed to tell my mum or anyone else about any of it, because secret identities and all that.

The funny thing is, my dad was a dyed in the wool homophobe for much of his life.

Its only been the last year or so that I realised what had been going on, lol.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/5/2/AAVk71AADTEo.jpg

Laura_Hughes posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/5/2/AAVk71AADTEo.jpg

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/1/5/AAeu1yAADOTX.jpg

Happy Pride, TC.