Current Events > Should an older white female author be able to write a Black Male POV?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Anne Tyler, says yes:

Im astonished by the appropriation issue, novelist Anne Tyler says. It would be very foolish for me to write, lets say, a novel from the viewpoint of a black man, but I think I should be allowed to do it.

https://twitter.com/ST_Culture/status/1505470786055950339

This Literacy Agent, says NO:

"I do not want to see books from authors writing identity-based books not of their own identity."

https://www.thebentagency.com/claire-draper

What say you CE?

Can they add them as characters in the book? Yes.

Should the book specifically be about what life is like as that particular demographic? Oh fuck me, no.

Like always it depends on the context but chances are it's a bit risky and gaps in personal experience will lead to oversights and issues unless the race and gender doesn't matter.

Yes.

It is offensive to me that people suggest race defines us so much more than our common humanity. IMO that premise is nearly the definition of racism itself.

What posted

Writing is about exploring and expressing stories, ideas, and ways of life that interest you. Why should an author be confined to their own perspective? Half the fun of writing fiction is in writing about something that isn't the same as your day to day life.

Yep. Obviously they shouldn't just "imagine" it, but if they did lots of research sure. If the character's race isn't their whole identity then it's not even a question.

who said she couldn't write it?

identity-based books

this is a very important clarifier. a white woman writing a book that involves points of view of other races is not a problem. a white woman writing about exclusively about the self-identity of a black man is completely different

Yes, though any character whose ideology and/or background differs from the author's personal experiences may need to be leveraged by sufficient research.

This accounts for gender, alignment, core beliefs, nationality, life experiences, and race.

Not sure but who cares. If a black guy can play a historically white character then why can't some rando white woman boomer write about being a black guy. It's a free country so do it I guess.

Sansoldier posted...

Yes, though any character whose ideology and/or background differs from the author's personal experiences may need to be leveraged by sufficient research.

This accounts for gender, alignment, core beliefs, nationality, life experiences, and race.

I mean I can agree with this, but to my mind this statement is nearly synonymous with "write characters well."

Heck, it applies to writing for characters from different time period, or characters from fantasy or sci-fi universes. You want to write a character whose thinking you understand.

And also not all things strive for real-world accuracy, so research is only necessary insofar as it serves the goals you are seeking to fulfill.

Punishment should be scolding with oil

Also it's worth mentioning that there are several great pieces of literature and movies about characters of a specific race that were written by someone of a totally different race. So no, I'd say don't oppose this.

Should a white director be able to cast Idris Elba in a role!?

Seriously, these discussions are so fucking stupid.

lilORANG posted...

Should a white director be able to cast Idris Elba in a role!?

Seriously, these discussions are so fucking stupid.

Eh I dunno if that's comparable as Idris Elba would presumably have his own input on the role and the director usually hasn't written the script either.

It really just depends on the context and what the circumstances are behind it all. An author has a lot (if not all) of input over their own stories generally so it really depends on the 'why' and 'how' really.

If an author is speaking from a POV of someone they know and directly are drawing inspiration from and using their talents as an author to tell a story that wouldn't otherwise be told that will probably turn out better than randomly making up a POV story about a demographic they're ignorant about with no rhyme or reason for example.

I think really the summary is "If you're criticized over this do you feel like you have enough substance backing you up to counter those arguments" I suppose.

Joe ide is a 65 year old Japanese American whose main character in his series is a mid to late 20s black man in a poor are of east long beach.

And those books are fucking awesome.

All about context. It doesn't have to be a bad thing. But it could also go horribly wrong.

Writers should write what they know, and it's generally up to the writer to make that determination. Of course, that requires some self-awareness on the part of the writer. Readers and critics really shouldn't talk until they've read the finished product, then they can decide if the writer was honest about their characters and story.

Abso-fuckin-lutely. Everyone should write about everyone and everything. Fuck this "don't do it unless you're that person" shit

That depends entirely on their writing ability and dedication to research. Sloppy writing is sloppy writing, good writing is good writing. An Australian man writing a story about a 1970s Chinese woman would be shitty if he has never met a Chinese woman or traveled to the country. If he has extensively visited China and spoken with women there, then it'll be likely he can portray an accurate character. To criticize something like that on a surface level only is virtue signaling at its finest.

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That's literally not what it has ever meant, for the exact reason you gave.

Ernest Tidyman, the white guy that wrote the Shaft books, won an NAACP Image Award. Person can write whatever they want and let the audience decide if it was a good idea.

Hey, I have a great idea that'll solve all of our problems.

How about if White people stop making books, movies, or stage plays? Then we never have to worry about them appropriating culture or depicting People of Color through a White lens. I can do my part by giving up my dreams of being an author to instead become the chauffer of a Black lesbian author who writes about imperialism, capitalism, and social inequality. Everyone wins that way!

-_-

/sarcasm

She can write a book about anything as long as she knows what she's talking about.

Thing is unless she's spent a great deal of time in the community connecting with the people and culture that she's writing about, she probably doesn't really know anything.

Of course she's "allowed" to do it. Not like anyone's going to yank the pen out of her hand.

Honestly, I understand the issue. We don't want people stealing other people's identities. We don't want people marginalizing others intentionally or unintentionally.

But not everything is a form of blackface.

If I play an online game of Mortal Kombat and I choose Jax, am I trying to present myself as a Black man to strangers on the internet? If I write a story about a Latina, is it driven by racial objectification? I understand the importance for people to be allowed to express their own voices - to write their own stories and tell their own life experiences.

But I also understand that, as a writer hopeful, I wouldn't want a filmography (or whatever literary equivalent is called) which consisted exclusively of stories about White males. Nor can everything be a pass-along-story where a White woman writes her perspective, a Black man writes his perspective, a homosexual Latino writes his perspective, and I write my own perspective. You know what happens when you try and do that? One or two people are unselfish and take their place as a supporting character while everyone else tries to be the star.

Sometimes you have to write based upon what you've heard or read from others. And sometimes you have to guess. If you have a story about a security guard battling robotic space invaders, that individual's Black identity isn't likely to be central to the story. A writer wouldn't need to know what it's like to be a Black youth and have "the talk" to be able to write for this character. They just need to know the elements that are essential to the story.

people can write whatever they want. who cares? losers thats who

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I have literally never seen or heard anyone use it that way. No one who actually understands the phrase thinks it means that. No one who actually writes or teaches writing thinks it means that. Thinking the phrase literally means to never write about anything you have to research or never write fantasy, sci-fi, or anything that requires the imagination is so absurd that I'm inclined to believe you're trolling.

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That's true, I've never been to reddit.

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This is the problem, right here. Again:

TheOtherMike posted...

No one who actually understands the phrase thinks it means that. No one who actually writes or teaches writing thinks it means that.

And by "actually writes" I mean has been published or educated to some extent, not someone who writes Sailor Moon or MLP fanfiction.

Or you could just clarify the obvious if they're genuinely stupid enough to think "write what you know" literally means to never write about anything you have to research or never write fantasy, sci-fi, or anything that requires the imagination.

But again, people who actually know literally anything about the subject (or simply have working brain cells) aren't confused by the phrase.

CyricZ posted...

Of course she's "allowed" to do it. Not like anyone's going to yank the pen out of her hand.

Why did you put allowed in quotes?

Of course. If you can't write about somebody different all books would just be autobiographies

If you're writing a story specifically about the in-depth experiences of someone not of your culture/race then you should at least do your research from people of said culture/race.

If you're writing a fairly generic (self-insert) story and you are choosing to make the main character a race, or of a culture, that you are not then you should at least get someone of said race/culture to check it over to make sure you didn't include something that would never make sense. <_<

But acting like only Y People of Y Race/Culture can write about Y People of Y Race/Culture, that doesn't really help anyone

and if someone does write something that is insensitive/problematic then call them out

People can write whatever the fuck they want.

Personal preference is that they put a lot of work into trying to make it seem authentic or go laughably in the other direction in some sort of satire like train wreck.

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No, I'm not overestimating anything, as evidenced by the fact that I said anyone with working brain cells isn't confused by the phrase. I'm dismissing those people entirely because they're irrelevant. Regardless, my point stands. The phrase itself is perfectly fine, and no one who teaches writing or actually writes is confused by it.

I always take great care when writing minorities into my stories, but they deserve characters they can relate to too hitmonlee

APokemonEnding posted...

I always take great care when writing minorities into my stories, but they deserve characters they can relate to too hitmonlee

I hate when people talk like this. The tone sounds like you are talking about children.

Spoilers: People of different races are people. There's no need for the patronizing tone.

You are going to have so much more in common with somebody of a different race in the same social/economic class and geography than somebody of the same race in a vastly different social/economic class and geography.

Just write good characters, it's that simple.

Sorry if that's what you got from my tone, but I'm really just intoxicated rn vileplume

Would I

a Latino male

be mad if a white lady wrote a book about the Latino perspective and had more insight about it than I did because Im caught up and in the midst of my own Latino problems to the point I have no foresight about them?

no, I wouldnt be mad - Id get jealous and say damn, it took a white lady to do that

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It absolutely does. This whole argument started because you said "most people" mean "a writer shouldn't write anything that's outside the scope of their own life experiences. which is ridiculous, because if every writer followed that advice, then sci-fi and fantasy and horror and basically all speculative fiction would not exist" when they use the phrase "write what you know." This is objectively wrong. Your subreddits are not evidence to the contrary. Common sense alone tells us that can't possibly be what that phrase means.

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This is pure projection considering you saw fit to reply over two hours later, exclusively for the purpose of calling me indignant and argumentative. When, again, you started the argument because you're weirdly indignant about a common phrase that no one who's spent more than a few hours researching the subject gets confused about. Maybe you're just defensive because you thought that's what the phrase meant, I don't know. Based on your first reply it certainly seems like that's what you thought. Either that, or like I initially thought, you're just trolling. But if all you're going to do is argue for argument's sake, please don't reply to me in the future.

I just resent any sentiment based on the premise of "be sure to think of somebody from a different race as fundamentally different and unrelatable to you!"

Somebody who wouldn't question you writing a 80 year old rich white Dutch man if you are a 25yo middle-class white nerd guy, but would question you if you wrote a 25yo middle-class black nerd guy, IMO is showing overt racism with whatever premise they must be operating under.

People of different races all share a common humanity and I'm sick of people trying to push the idea that people of different races are fundamentally different. People are just people.

APokemonEnding posted...

Sorry if that's what you got from my tone, but I'm really just intoxicated rn vileplume

Nah, it's fine. I recognized I was going a bit hard against you, it wasn't so much what you said but how what you said reminded me of that kind of sentiment that I find frustrating.