Current Events > Ukraine and Russia have made progress on 15-point peace plan

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1504098983895080965
Behind a pay wall, but a quick summary in this tweet:
https://twitter.com/bungarsargon/status/1504101165063102466?

"Give us time to come back better prepared" is all not being allowed to join any protection sounds like to me tbh.

"Protection from allies"

So, how will that shake up if/when Russia decides that it wants to invade again?

anyone else think its incredibly evil/scummy that these shitty news companies are holding world news like this hostage behind a paywall? Its repulsive

Solar_Crimson posted...

"Protection from allies"

So, how will that shake up if/when Russia decides that it wants to invade again?

Pretense for war against the allies

"so basically we get to join NATO for free"

Kloe_Rinz posted...

anyone else think its incredibly evil/scummy that these shitty news companies are holding world news like this hostage behind a paywall?

It's probably not ideal that reputable outlets are pay walled while Breitbart is free.

Tyranthraxus posted...

"so basically we get to join NATO for free"

They would not be part of NATO
https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1504098207533613058

does it include "Russia get the hell out of Crimea and their puppet states"?

Antifar posted...

It's probably not ideal that reputable outlets are pay walled while Breitbart is free.

I had this same thought as well. I can understand that they need money to keep things going (if they don't want to run ads), but at the same time, it also just makes the far-right propaganda far more accessible and easier to spread.

we should make journalists work for free imo

Why do they call it 15-point talk? Does it actually mean anything or is it just fluff like saying "I tied my shoelaces with a 5-point process"? >_>

Not even sure why Ukraine is talking to Russia about this. Shouldn't Russia be out of money by now? I figured that they would be retreating back since this has taken way too long just to go nowhere.

Antifar posted...

They would not be part of NATO

Obviously because you have to pay to be in NATO. But they're getting in exchange "protection from allies" which is literally the point of NATO.

I'm personally of the opinion that Ukraine should absolutely sign a peace agreement promising that they'll never join NATO or the EU, if it means they get to keep their territory, and then they should turn around and join anyway. Russia already guaranteed their territorial sovereignty decades ago when they gave up their nukes and Russia is the one actively invading so as far as I'm concerned any violation of any future treaties between Ukraine and Russia is completely valid.

Am I the only one who feels like this is fake news? Russia just wants time to regroup to continue pummeling Ukraine, if you even feel like assuming they are "negotiating" for real anyway.

darkmaian23 posted...

Am I the only one who feels like this is fake news? Russia just wants time to regroup to continue pummeling Ukraine, if you even feel like assuming they are "negotiating" for real anyway.

It's probably real. This is how the winter war went against Finland.

Kloe_Rinz posted...

anyone else think its incredibly evil/scummy that these shitty news companies are holding world news like this hostage behind a paywall? Its repulsive

yes but this is about in line with expectations for media today

s0nicfan posted...

I'm personally of the opinion that Ukraine should absolutely sign a peace agreement promising that they'll never join NATO or the EU, if it means they get to keep their territory, and then they should turn around and join anyway. Russia already guaranteed their territorial sovereignty decades ago when they gave up their nukes and Russia is the one actively invading so as far as I'm concerned any violation of any future treaties between Ukraine and Russia is completely valid.

Does the peace plan include giving sovereignty to the two areas Russia claimed were "being oppressed"?

Kloe_Rinz posted...

anyone else think its incredibly evil/scummy that these shitty news companies are holding world news like this hostage behind a paywall? Its repulsive

The article is available free on ft.com. Iirc theyre not paywalling coverage of the war.

AloneIBreak posted...

The article is available free on ft.com. Iirc theyre not paywalling coverage of the war.

Lol, I just assumed it was paywall Ed because that's almost always the case for FT's stuff neato.

s0nicfan posted...

I'm personally of the opinion that Ukraine should absolutely sign a peace agreement promising that they'll never join NATO or the EU, if it means they get to keep their territory, and then they should turn around and join anyway. Russia already guaranteed their territorial sovereignty decades ago when they gave up their nukes and Russia is the one actively invading so as far as I'm concerned any violation of any future treaties between Ukraine and Russia is completely valid.

This, it would be really stupid to agree to disadvantageous terms with Russia and then not go back on the agreement when Russia is definitely going to.

Ruvan22 posted...

Does the peace plan include giving sovereignty to the two areas Russia claimed were "being oppressed"?

Unclear, but probably. While Ukraine has consistently said that their borders include those areas and crimea, it is highly unlikely that Russia would cede them and is honestly probably what they would need to be able to save face and "claim victory" as an excuse to stop leveling the country in the first place.

When Russia attacked Finland in the winter war and Finland absolutely bodied them, they still ended up cutting a peace treaty which saw Finland lose about 10% of its land mass to Russia. Russia's basic operation is to make continued warfare so destructive to civilians that the government has no choice but to give up land they don't want to in exchange for cessation of hostilities. And unless we are willing to roll tanks into Russia that's pretty much the only thing that will cause them to stop at this point.

ReaperCloud posted...

Not even sure why Ukraine is talking to Russia about this. Shouldn't Russia be out of money by now? I figured that they would be retreating back since this has taken way too long just to go nowhere.

Ukraine will run out of bodies to throw at this war before Russia will run out of money for the war. Zelenskyy recognizes this and thus wants to get to a peace deal ASAP.

squall567 posted...

Ukraine will run out of bodies to throw at this war before Russia will run out of money for the war. Zelenskyy recognizes this and thus wants to get to a peace deal ASAP.

I'm not so sure honestly. Zelenskyy probably just doesn't want his people to die and wants to start rebuilding as soon as possible. They would absolutely fight until Russia collapses if they didn't relent.

Antifar posted...

Behind a pay wall

https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234
If Google is allowed to see your content, everyone else is able to see it too.

s0nicfan posted...

When Russia attacked Finland in the winter war and Finland absolutely bodied them, they still ended up cutting a peace treaty which saw Finland lose about 10% of its land mass to Russia.

The Soviet Union was not going to be satisfied with having 10% of Finland. They wanted all of it.
The peace only brought the war to a dangerous lull, during which the SU would recoup their losses and plan a new offensive.

Todya's Russia is no different. It's markedly duplicitous, and Ukraine would be doing itself a colossal disservice by agreeing to a peace treaty whose conditions makes it vulnerable to another invasion.

Thompson posted...

The Soviet Union was not going to be satisfied with having 10% of Finland. They wanted all of it.
The peace only brought the war to a dangerous lull, during which the SU would recoup their losses and plan a new offensive.

Todya's Russia is no different. It's markedly duplicitous, and Ukraine would be doing itself a colossal disservice by agreeing to a peace treaty whose conditions makes it vulnerable to another invasion.

The problem is that what you're proposing is a counteroffensive to cripple Russia which nobody is seriously considering. Getting a decade to build up your military and form new alliances gives Ukraine a better chance in the long run than insisting that Russia fully withdrawal without getting anything and instead having them hammer the country into dust over the next month.

Russia's word is as good as their currency

PatrickMahomes posted...

yes but this is about in line with expectations for media today

I miss the good old days when kids would stand on the street corner yelling "extra extra read all about it" and then hand you a newspaper completely for free

Even if that were to happen...how does Russia expect to go back to how things were before? Specially with so much civilian death

JuanCarlos1 posted...

how does Russia expect to go back to how things were before?

Everyone just waits until Putin finally dies or gets deposed, then relations with Ukraine will normalize again.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Everyone just waits until Putin finally dies or gets deposed, then relations with Ukraine will normalize again.

Unless the next guy in charge is just as or even more batshit than Putin is.

Solar_Crimson posted...

Unless the next guy in charge is just as or even more batshit than Putin is.

Garry Kasparov, huh?
Dude's a bit nutty, but I don't think he wants Ukraine and the baltics like Putin does.

Just one point needed: Russia unconditionally out of Ukraine immediately

Ok Russia has INVADED Ukraine. Id lie on the treaty and do whatever.....