Board 8 > what games are like Binding of Isaac, but aren't?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Really don't care for the theme or aesthetic, but it looks fun mechanically. Specifically I am looking for roguelites (or true roguelikes) that have a bunch of different powerups, routes, and secrets. I've played a bunch of roguey type things, but a lot of them start to feel the same after a few runs, y'know? Whereas with BoI I have watched a few streams and still don't really have an idea what's going on- guy's like "OKAY I got the angel, but should I get the emperor or sagittarius? I could go to the streamer room or play the beggar but I need to get to the eve in 20 minutes and I don't know if I need to sumpto my clots before I skip the dreamcatcher" and I have no idea what any of that means but it sound like there are a lot of interesting decisions to make and variables to factor in, and the guys go like pew pew pew. Bonus points if it's turn based rather than real-time, but I won't be picky. Also bonus points if it's not TOO crazy hard, as I am not good at gaem. Closest I've found so far are Necrodancer and the fifty million deckbuildery ones, although I suspect Hades would also fit the bill.

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if you're looking for a dual stick shooter roguelite, there's Gungeon and Nuclear Throne.
I can't think of anything with the insane variety of powerups as BOI though

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Hades is the first thing that comes to mind

for turn based maybe darkest dungeon or monster train

I think the big failing of BoI is that they don't tell you what the items do before you pick them up and I'm just supposed to remember what each of the 500 or so upgrades do

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PrinceKaro posted...

I think the big failing of BoI is that they don't tell you what the items do before you pick them up and I'm just supposed to remember what each of the 500 or so upgrades do

the chaos is 100% intentional and part of the fun IMO

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Anyone remember Dungeons of Dredmor?

Its oldish, you could probably get it cheap, and its kinda a lot like that.

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PrinceKaro posted...

I think the big failing of BoI is that they don't tell you what the items do before you pick them up and I'm just supposed to remember what each of the 500 or so upgrades do

there's a mod that fixes this if you so desire

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Going Under has real-time combat but it's got a good amount of variety in powerups. You can use pretty much anything in the rooms as a weapon so that also helps with the variety.

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Tom Bombadil posted...

Really don't care for the theme or aesthetic, but it looks fun mechanically. Specifically I am looking for roguelites (or true roguelikes) that have a bunch of different powerups, routes, and secrets. I've played a bunch of roguey type things, but a lot of them start to feel the same after a few runs, y'know? Whereas with BoI I have watched a few streams and still don't really have an idea what's going on- guy's like "OKAY I got the angel, but should I get the emperor or sagittarius? I could go to the streamer room or play the beggar but I need to get to the eve in 20 minutes and I don't know if I need to sumpto my clots before I skip the dreamcatcher" and I have no idea what any of that means but it sound like there are a lot of interesting decisions to make and variables to factor in, and the guys go like pew pew pew. Bonus points if it's turn based rather than real-time, but I won't be picky. Also bonus points if it's not TOO crazy hard, as I am not good at gaem. Closest I've found so far are Necrodancer and the fifty million deckbuildery ones, although I suspect Hades would also fit the bill.

You need to watch better streamers. Isaac 100% should go Sagittarius with that build. It's practically a sure thing to get Sarcophagus or Macedon in an altar room, and with that and Angel, you're set for the game. Emperor is only useful with Granfalloon, which is much rarer, and even then it's not as useful as the Sag build if you're going the Eve route. And skipping dreamcatcher is high risk low reward. This guy sounds amateurish enough he should sink in the thirty seconds to get it for safety

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as for games:

there's One Step From Eden which is like Mega Man battle network gameplay (but it can get pretty hard, at least when I last played it)

Enter the Gungeon for twin stick shooting like Isaac. Rogue Legacy and Hades if you want progression between runs and Hades is obviously great in other aspects as well.

There's 20XX for a Mega Man X-esque roguelike

I think Isaac is worth looking past the theme/aesthetic personally but there are other options.

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there's FTL and Into the Breach as well though they don't really go crazy with powerups.

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Gungeon is probably the closest, although I never really played it much.

for turn based games, well a lot of the major, "real"/"proper" roguelikes have modes where you can turn off permadeath. But those are probably still pretty hard/complicated, so I think it might be better to go with a Mystery Dungeon series game (I guess Shiren 5, aka the Tower of fortune one might be the best overall option but there's a lot of different flavors of mystery dungeon to go into if you're interested) or maybe a game that's inspired more by Mystery Dungeon like I guess Tangledeep (although I haven't really played it enough to comment on). Or if you want something super pared down and to the point, One Way Heroics.

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I think Dead Cells fits this pretty perfectly. Tons of different routes, tons of secrets (just beating the game on each difficulty as they unlock will not get you the true ending), and tons of crazy new powers/weapons that you're constantly unlocking.

I haven't played much of the roguelite/roguelike genre, but it's easily my favorite that I have played.

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Gotcha, thanks y'all

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While I'd recommend Hades in general, it definitely does not have the depth of upgrades/decisions that BoI does. Honestly not even close.

Really I haven't played anything else quite like BoI, but it's not like I've exhausted the genre or anything.

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Kenri posted...

While I'd recommend Hades in general, it definitely does not have the depth of upgrades/decisions that BoI does. Honestly not even close.

Yeah this
I don't play many Roguelikes. I think I only played like...BOI and Hades
But when I played Hades after having like 300 hours on BOI, I feel like that bar was set too high (and my BOI experience was from the first DLC, Afterbirth)
It's just...most of my Hades runs felt the same. I could never say the same thing about BOI. Not even close to that

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Enter the Gungeon is definitely the closest (and also IMO just better than Isaac in general)

Hades is a better game, but not really specifically like Isaac in gameplay

Risk of Rain is also sorta roguelite, has the same problem of pickups not telling you what to do, but it's on a 2D plain with only left/right movement and jumping so you have to use your abilities to dodge.

Enter the Gungeon explains things a bit better when you pick them up, but is quite a bit more difficult than Isaac, IMO.

Isaac mods can help you with the initial hurdle of "what does this do" because even though I a middling veteran of it I'll still screw a run by picking up Soymilk every so often.

Dungeons of Dredmor was mentioned, but that's less shooty, and your randomness per run is more based off your starting build and how you develop it. It also runs kinda terribly, I feel.

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Hades is incredible but it's definitely a weird one in that you have a ton of control over how your runs go so there's very little randomness and forced divergence from your favorite strategy, all of which is otherwise a genre staple. There's still interesting decision-making to be had, especially before you get the skills (both in and out of game) to achieve that consistency, but it's a pretty big asterisk given what you're asking for here.

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Enter the Gungeon is great, maybe not as hardcore as Isaac but it's got a surprising amount of variety/depth/secrets and the whole love letter to pop culture side of it actually works really well.
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oh yeah Risk of Rain 2 is great. lots of powerups and easy game to sink lots of hours into. bunch of different characters that all play completely differently from each other

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For variety in playstyles and things to find I recommend Caves of Qud.

The setting of the game is post-post-apocalyptic Earth (possibly multiple apocalypses?). At character creation you can choose to be either a Mutated Human or an unmutated "True Kin." Mutated Humans get lower stats at the start but have a large list of mutations both physical and mental to choose from, things like additional limbs, photosynthesis, wings, burrowing claws, teleportation, freeze rays, forcefields, mind control, etc. If you want even more mutations at the start you can take on negative mutations too to get more points to spend (Brittle Bones, Nearsightedness, Amnesia, Evil Clone that can appear randomly at any time to try to kill you, etc)

True Kin don't start with mutations but can gain access to cybernetic implants both temporary/swappable (optical bioscanners, night vision, translucent skin to increase dodge value, a gun rack attached to your back so you can shoot more guns at once, automatic fire suppression systems) and permanent (tank treads instead of legs, floating holy chair you are permanently affixed to)

The history of the world and the NPC factions (and their dispositions toward you and each other) are randomly generated. Not to the degree that they are in Dwarf Fortress, but enough to give a variety, and the histories do have gameplay effects, dictating what type of creatures or things you might find in certain locations. If you kill a legendary bear that is loved by the citizens of a town for rescuing one of their kidnapped children, that town's residents may start to dislike or hate you, but perhaps that same bear is hated by all spiders because it once destroyed their webs, and now killing the bear means that spiders are no longer hostile to you.

There is a (not yet complete) main storyline, and the locations and quests for that are not random. The shape of the world map is not random. Everything else (locations, items, other points of interest) is randomly generated. Even the recipes to cure illnesses are randomized. The one drawback I would say is that the beginning of the game is gonna be mostly the same every time, but fortunately a mode was recently added that removes permadeath, so that you can reload a save if you die.

Here's two videos to show you more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrZSo69ZK5k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_PBfLbd3zw

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based on what you said, Noita might be your best bet.

it has a very deep customization/strategy aspect to it. it also simulates every particle in the dungeon so you can do unique/tricky things involving blasting walls, setting oil on fire, etc etc, on your way to discovering a bazillion secrets

Spelunky 2 is pretty much best in genre and has a lot of knowledge to learn, although your powers don't vary *quite* as much

the stuff other people have recommended are decent as well. depends on what you're looking for- roguelikes are an extremely dense genre

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gameplay is way different, but the variety and strategies involved in Slay the Spire are pretty great

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Noita.

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I have an issue with Noita, though, in that no matter what you do for early runs nothing affects a later one, at least with as far as I've gotten in it.

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Thats how roguelikes are supposed to be tbh

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Inscryption and Slay the Spire are card-game roguelikes. There are lots of fun decisions. Inscryption has lots of little secrets and stuff. Slay the Spire has a nice little challenge mode. Highly recommend both.

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Starward Rogue is pretty much BoI with mechs.

WazzupGenius00 posted...

Thats how roguelikes are supposed to be tbh

Which is why it took until the very non-Rogue Rogue Legacy to make the genre big. People don't actually like real roguelikes

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You should check out Monolith, on steam. Extremely similar to Isaac, being a shooty top down roguelike, where you explore a bunch of single-screen rooms, then you fight a boss to go to the next floor. BUT it is sci fi, pixel art, and you use the mouse to aim. (Surprisingly, no dual joystick support.) The gameplay is great.

I enjoy it a lot more than Isaac, 'cause I never liked that only-shoot-4-ways of isaac, and I didn't like how hard it was to understand the powerups in Isaac.

The downside is, Monolith is pretty shallow, from what I can tell--I bet it has <10% of the depth of Isaac games. I haven't played either one for more than a few hours tho.

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Isquen posted...

I have an issue with Noita, though, in that no matter what you do for early runs nothing affects a later one, at least with as far as I've gotten in it.

The genre you're looking for is called "roguelite"

foolm0r0n posted...

Which is why it took until the very non-Rogue Rogue Legacy to make the genre big.

Wait, is this real? I thought binding of Isaac, spelunky, and gungeon were the big names that really revitalized the genre in the modern era, and slay the spire was the breakout card one. Also FTL. Shows how much I know, I guess?

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I think most roguelikes are boring, because they are like RPGs where you slowly buildup, which makes the earlygame a snoozefest because it's just wasting your time.

Downwell is my favorite rougelike, because it's heavily an action/arcade type game, while you still get a ton of powerups. It might not be what you are looking for, but I love it, and it hasn't been mentioned yet.

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My favorite roguelite is A Robot Named Fight. It's basically a roguelite version of Super Metroid.

It doesn't have as many choices as what you're describing (choices mostly come into play via shops/shrines where you use scrap you've found to craft new power ups), but there is a big variety of items and a lot of them can combine in interesting ways.

TomNook posted...

which makes the earlygame a snoozefest because it's just wasting your time.

The early game (in a good roguelike/lite) is all about learning the items, enemies, synergies, mechanics, ETC.

That's usually the most fun part for me! I'll spend 20 hours trying to find the most broken combo I can in a game like One Step From Eden then sort of lose interest once I don't feel like the game has any more secrets for me or if the gameplay is getting stale.

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banananor posted...

The genre you're looking for is called "roguelite"

Wait, is this real? I thought binding of Isaac, spelunky, and gungeon were the big names that really revitalized the genre in the modern era, and slay the spire was the breakout card one. Also FTL. Shows how much I know, I guess?

Gungeon was much later, the first notable thing to start the trend was the freeware Spelunky and then the big wave was Isaac, Spelunky remake, FTL, and Rogue Legacy

Rogue Legacy is fucking terrible imo but it was a major part of the popularization for sure

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Yeah Rogue Legacy was massively popular, but I hated how it felt so much

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Spelunky was first but it wasn't really that big until way after Rogue Legacy iirc. But yeah Isaac and FTL came soon after so they were all part of the push. I remember RL being the main one that was in all the articles and discussions though, and it def popularized the genre name cuz it was the only one called Rogue.

I only played it a couple years after Isaac and others and was like.... this is it, really? Definitely hated it. litest of the roguelites.

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skullbone posted...

The early game (in a good roguelike/lite) is all about learning the items, enemies, synergies, mechanics, ETC.

That's cool but a lot of modern roguelikes enforce this too hard with their slow RPG systems. Hades upgrades in particular progressed so slowly compared to your skill/knowledge growth (if you are used to this kind of gameplay).

The less RPG systems the better tbh. There's soooo many ways to have progression in roguelites (e.g. Hades narrative stuff) that it feels outdated.

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If Hades was 20% shorter it would have been perfect

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I'd say 50% tbh

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i remember realm of the mad god was also a thing back then which kind of counts

anyway mystery dungeon games are the best roguelikes (pokemon mystery dungeon probably the least appropriate subseries for the topic ftr)

i just remembered this hilarious chart

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shoutouts to gamefaqs making it impossible to read
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/666224645338300422/799397858776186930/roguelike_chart.png?width=874&height=701

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and this is why mystery dungeon is still king

NFUN posted...

shoutouts to gamefaqs making it impossible to read
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/666224645338300422/799397858776186930/roguelike_chart.png?width=874&height=701

it's still impossible to read when you click this link, you need to delete the width and height part of the URL

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NFUN posted...

shoutouts to gamefaqs making it impossible to read
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/666224645338300422/799397858776186930/roguelike_chart.png

How the hell did Necrodancer make it to the No side of turn-based?

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foolm0r0n posted...

How the hell did Necrodancer make it to the No side of turn-based?

because it's timed and therefore action! or something

don't generally like Hard Times but this one is spot-on
https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/roguelike-genre-purist-hopes-someone-will-develop-a-roguelike-someday/


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If you just look at CotN without ever playing it certainly appears everything is happening all at once.

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