Current Events > Is it possible the vaccines don't even stop transmission of the virus?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Confirmed by CNN. I don't understand how nobody is talking about this. Doesn't this sort of defeat the purpose of the vaccine mandates?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK97dpVq-s0

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/vaccinated-people-less-likely-to-spread-covid-than-unvaccinated-top-doc-says/ar-AAPwMaD?ocid=uxbndlbing

Educate yourself.

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It's not just possible, it's confirmed that they don't completely prevent it.

The key word here, though, is "completely". They still significantly reduce the risk of both catching the virus, and transmitting it onwards if you do.

Not only that, but even in a hypothetical scenario where they had zero effect on catching or transmitting the virus, the reduced risk of severe illness is still a factor. If the only people interacting with each other are all vaccinated, then even if the same number of total cases occurred, the number of these needing hospital-level care - let alone the number resulting in deaths - would be far less.

What's important to keep in mind is nothing is going to be a perfect measure against it. But measures that reduce the number of cases and/or the severity of those cases, still go a long way towards avoiding the worst-case scenario.

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Educate yourself.

Uhh, that's why I'm listening to the CDC director.

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thats what i have been saying this whole time, especially when vaccinated people were given the privilege of not having to wear masks anymore. If anything a vaccinated person is more likely to be an asymptomatic carrier and be spreading it out in the community for longer unknowingly because they have no reason to ever get tested.

But then if an unvaccinated person gets caught in the crossfire, they will get all the blame. Heres the thing, even though they are saying vaccinated people can still spread it, they will some how make out that unvaccinated people spread it more or that the virus is more severe if you catch it from someone who unvaccinated.

So if you are a part of a more susceptible/sensitive group then definitely yes go get the vaccine to keep yourself protected. All the mandates are silly and make no sense to be. An unvaccinated person who does not have covid, cant spread it, because they dont have it. And if anything would more likely have earlier onset symptoms to let them know to stay home. yet everyone already has associated being unvaccinated as a confirmed covid case or treating them like they already have covid.

Illnesses that are "eradicated" are STILL around. The rate is just so astronomically low for eradicated illnesses that they're basically non-factor. That's what vaccines are meant to do.

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Oh people are talking about it, just not on this old ass message board from the 90s.

The CDC will make things sound worse than they actually are. Reduced spreading means spreading can still happen and the that can still happen part is what the CDC will focus on when talking to the public. Their goal is to have their statements be worse than reality. This is for two reasons, one they believe it will lead to people taking things more seriously than they would otherwise and two, they believe they would look really bad if they underestimated the risks.

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probably yeah

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toyota posted...

they will some how make out that unvaccinated people spread it more or that the virus is more severe if you catch it from someone who unvaccinated.

The former is well established as fact, and even the latter is not implausible.

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if it can still spread less it's better than full spread.
combined with mask it's doing it's job.
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toyota posted...
Kids don't be an uninformed anti-vaxxer like this guy. Get vaccinated

Axiom posted...

uninformed anti-vaxxer

im not an anti-vaxxer though and i always encourage people to get it if they are on the fence.

i jsut dont want it myslef

toyota posted...

im not an anti-vaxxer though and i always encourage people to get it if they are on the fence.

i jsut dont want it myslef

So anti-vaxxer

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Mr_Karate_II posted...

anti-vaxxer

how so?

toyota posted...

how so?

denying the vaccine when it's right in front of you = anti-vaxxer

it's just how the rules play out.
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Just never listen to CNN about anything. They openly lie these days.

As far as the truth/actual science, how it seems to work is this (rough language to explain a point) Let's say cases of COVID are rated on a scale of 1 to 10 of "badness".

If you aren't vaccinated let's say the average COVID experience is a 4 to 8.
If you are vaccinated let's say the average case is a 1 to 2.

Two people who are level 5's are going to be similarly contagious but there are going to be way way less vaccinated people who have a level 5 case of COVID than unvaccinated people.

If you have been told the vaccines 100% stop COVID and 100% prevent transmission, yes you have been lied to. But they do very strongly reduce average case frequency and severity. And less severe cases will be less contagious.

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toyota posted...

thats what i have been saying this whole time, especially when vaccinated people were given the privilege of not having to wear masks anymore. If anything a vaccinated person is more likely to be an asymptomatic carrier and be spreading it out in the community for longer unknowingly because they have no reason to ever get tested.

But then if an unvaccinated person gets caught in the crossfire, they will get all the blame. Heres the thing, even though they are saying vaccinated people can still spread it, they will some how make out that unvaccinated people spread it more or that the virus is more severe if you catch it from someone who unvaccinated.

So if you are a part of a more susceptible/sensitive group then definitely yes go get the vaccine to keep yourself protected. All the mandates are silly and make no sense to be. An unvaccinated person who does not have covid, cant spread it, because they dont have it. And if anything would more likely have earlier onset symptoms to let them know to stay home. yet everyone already has associated being unvaccinated as a confirmed covid case or treating them like they already have covid.

Nearly everything you said is bullshit.


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DarkRoast posted...

Nearly everything you said is bullshit.

I just want to clarify that the scope of this statement isn't limited to the post its quoting.

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Literally no vaccine is 100%. Hell, the measles vaccine is 90-95% effective.

Ever wonder why you don't see measles even though up to 10% of people can still contract it? Because 95% of people are vaccinated against it. The number of vectors, or people who can potentially spread it, are low enough that spread itself is inhibited.

The same could have been true for covid-19, however the vaccination rate stalled at about 50%. The estimated necessary vaccination rate to stop covid-19 from spreading was about 80 to 90%. But then we got a bunch of assholes telling everyone how important it is to not get vaccinated if you're healthy. Because your risk is low.

There is only one state, Vermont, with a vaccination rate above 70% total. And guess what? It has 10 times less deaths per 100,000 people than States like Florida and Texas.

And that's despite the fact that Vermont has a relatively older and more susceptible population.

And here we are, fucked over by misinformation.

Vaccination is not just about you. It's not just about protecting you from disease. It's about stopping disease. It's about not being a potential vector of disease for someone who would get much sicker than you would. I thought this was basic knowledge in school, but clearly it isn't.

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DarkRoast posted...

The estimated necessary vaccination rate to stop covid-19 from spreading was about 80 to 90%.

My understanding is that with the Delta variant, even 100% vaccine coverage with the current vaccines would not prevent it spreading (but would still of couse greatly reduce the spread, and reduce the burden of illness), and that we'd need even better vaccines to achieve this?

Or is that claim more coming from a "theoretically possible but no way anywhere will get high enough vac rates" point of view?

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Trumble posted...

My understanding is that with the Delta variant, even 100% vaccine coverage with the current vaccines would not prevent it spreading (but would still of couse greatly reduce the spread, and reduce the burden of illness), and that we'd need even better vaccines to achieve this?

Or is that claim more coming from a "theoretically possible but no way anywhere will get high enough vac rates" point of view?

With a theoretical 100% coverage the disease would eventually go extinct. Most people in America aren't vaccinated against smallpox. Why? Because they don't need to be. It doesn't exist anymore outside of petri dishes in virology labs.

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Trumble posted...

My understanding is that with the Delta variant, even 100% vaccine coverage with the current vaccines would not prevent it spreading (but would still of couse greatly reduce the spread, and reduce the burden of illness), and that we'd need even better vaccines to achieve this?

Or is that claim more coming from a "theoretically possible but no way anywhere will get high enough vac rates" point of view?

To put it into perspective, a country with an 83% vaccination rate (Singapore) has roughly 19 deaths per 100,000 people. That's compared to the US....





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DuranOfForcena posted...

nobody who knows one bit about what the fuck they are talking about has told anyone this, ever, so i don't know how anyone could have been "lied" to about it

To be honest, we basically hit the point where anti-vaxxers have to lie about being lied to

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It's possible. You can't know for sure unless you get the vaccine and intentionally go around looking for infect people then seeing if you get it.

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As someone with a degree in public health and medicine, I find it absolutely infuriating that people are so shit at understanding vaccination, herd immunity and the role of infection control. It's unbelievably annoying dealing with anti-vaxxers who have no f****** clue what they're talking about, yet have a disproportionate amount of influence on social media.

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This isn't new news. It's been confirmed soon after Delta became widespread, it's one of few variants that actually have vaccinated folks have the same viral load as non vaccinated people.

So yeah, vaccinated people can spread to others and they can have side effects, but the side effects they get are much less than non vaccinated. Far less likely to suffer from long covid and be be intubed and into the ICU. Most vaccinated people will have nothing more than flu symptoms. But the window if infection (like the article stated) is shorter than non vaccinated people with covid, cause they recognize the virus, fight it off and reduce the numbers way faster. Thus less side effects and faster recovery as well.

Also you could still contract another covid variant that isn't Delta. The earlier ones are as easy to spread.

But either way, get the vaccine and mask up. Don't ever let your guard down. Think about the immune compromised and elderly who can die from it, despite being vaccinated and at least for two weeks after the 2nd dose. Just because you might not get serious complications be cause you are vaccinated, doesn't mean others can't.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

With a theoretical 100% coverage the disease would eventually go extinct. Most people in America aren't vaccinated against smallpox. Why? Because they don't need to be. It doesn't exist anymore outside of petri dishes in virology labs.

That would only be true if the vaccine prevented transmission, or at least reduced it enough to bring Reff under 1.

DarkRoast posted...

To put it into perspective, a country with an 83% vaccination rate (Singapore) has roughly 19 deaths per 100,000 people. That's compared to the US....

Yes, I'm well aware of what the vaccine does acheive. I'm not remotely anti-vax, heck, I'm outright in favor of making the vaccine mandatory. It was just my impression that the current vaccines aren't effective enough against the Delta variant to, alone, acheive herd immunity (rather than just helping reduce case numbers and serious illness).

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it's one of few variants that actually have vaccinated folks have the same viral load as non vaccinated people.

A statistic that unfortunately has been used in a misleading way by anti-vaxxers, because they deliberately ignore the fact that you have to contract the disease in order to have a viral load, and vaccinated individuals are 80% less likely to contract the disease. It's kind of like saying people who aren't drunk can still have car wrecks. Yes, this is true, but they are also 80% less likely to have car wrecks.

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toyota posted...

thats what i have been saying this whole time, especially when vaccinated people were given the privilege of not having to wear masks anymore. If anything a vaccinated person is more likely to be an asymptomatic carrier and be spreading it out in the community for longer unknowingly because they have no reason to ever get tested.

But then if an unvaccinated person gets caught in the crossfire, they will get all the blame. Heres the thing, even though they are saying vaccinated people can still spread it, they will some how make out that unvaccinated people spread it more or that the virus is more severe if you catch it from someone who unvaccinated.

So if you are a part of a more susceptible/sensitive group then definitely yes go get the vaccine to keep yourself protected. All the mandates are silly and make no sense to be. An unvaccinated person who does not have covid, cant spread it, because they dont have it. And if anything would more likely have earlier onset symptoms to let them know to stay home. yet everyone already has associated being unvaccinated as a confirmed covid case or treating them like they already have covid.

I get that people are letting their guard down, and thinking they are invincible, even weeks after getting the vaccine... But you can't.

if you are unvaccinated, there is a absolutely no fucking reason you shouldn't be wearing a mask and playing it safe to protect others. Everyone should.

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DarkRoast posted...

it's one of few variants that actually have vaccinated folks have the same viral load as non vaccinated people.

A statistic that unfortunately has been used in a misleading way by anti-vaxxers, because they deliberately ignore the fact that you have to contract the disease in order to have a viral load, and vaccinated individuals are 80% less likely to contract the disease. It's kind of like saying people who aren't drunk can still have car wrecks. Yes, this is true, but they are also 80% less likely to have car wrecks.

I know. But the window is shorter with vaccinated folks, which is what people aren't mentioning, and it's something people need to know

And again, everyone should mask up.

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The problem with anti-vaxxers is that they are also anti-maskers. The Venn diagram is almost a perfect circle. Which is why the CDC was stupid beyond belief when it said that vaccinated individuals didn't have to wear masks but unvaccinated individuals did. Because obviously the unvaccinated individuals weren't wearing masks anyway.

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Trumble posted...

That would only be true if the vaccine prevented transmission, or at least reduced it enough to bring Reff under 1.

The vaccine prevents transmission by preventing you from contracting it in the first place. Obviously you cannot spread COVID if you don't have it.

And while it's not 100% effective at preventing you from contracting it, with 100% coverage, the spread of the disease will be crippled so severely it will go extinct in a matter of months.


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Tyranthraxus posted...

The vaccine prevents transmission by preventing you from contracting it in the first place. Obviously you cannot spread COVID if you don't have it.

And while it's not 100% effective at preventing you from contracting it, with 100% coverage, the spread of the disease will be crippled so severely it will go extinct in a matter of months.

What's crazy about it is that we have clear examples of other countries that have essentially eradicated covid-19 through very high vaccination rates. I don't know what the fuck is going on when these politicians delight in spreading misinformation and "health freedom" propaganda. You know what real health freedom is? Not having any f****** covid-19 around.

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DarkRoast posted...

The problem with anti-vaxxers is that they are also anti-maskers. The Venn diagram is almost a perfect circle. Which is why the CDC was stupid beyond belief when it said that vaccinated individuals didn't have to wear masks but unvaccinated individuals did. Because obviously the unvaccinated individuals weren't wearing masks anyway.

IMO everyone should have to wear a mask in public vaccinated or not as it helps lower the spread of not only covid, but other things like the flu as well.

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People spread it

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God I am so sick of this shit. Just get the damn shot you fucking children. This never needed to be this painful.

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TC is a known anti-vaxxer, people.

Trumble posted...

That would only be true if the vaccine prevented transmission, or at least reduced it enough to bring Reff under 1.

Yes, I'm well aware of what the vaccine does acheive. I'm not remotely anti-vax, heck, I'm outright in favor of making the vaccine mandatory. It was just my impression that the current vaccines aren't effective enough against the Delta variant to, alone, acheive herd immunity (rather than just helping reduce case numbers and serious illness).

No vaccine is 100% effective. Did you know the flu vaccine is only 50-70%? Even if you wait 2 weeks for full protection, you can get a variant that doesn't protect you. But it's still worth it.

the covid vaccine is still highly effective against the Delta variant. Moderna and Pfizer are 94% effective alone on the first variants, which is amazing I don't know the percentage numbers, fir Delta (I'm guessing 80s at least )but it drastically reduces permanent damage like clots organs + long covid, being intubed into the ICU and death.

What anti vaxxers and people who are hesitant to get it need to realize is that,

1. 9/10 people right now being submitted for covid in hospitals and getting intubed/put in ICU are non vaccinated.
2. If we keep having a high infection rate, hospitals will continue to be packed and can't support everyone. Not enough equipment, not enough personnel to treat everyone. So people end up waiting for hours for surgery or cancer treatment and end up dying waiting, while covid + patients get priority for beds. And nurses and doctors can't properly treat all those covid patients too as well. If they think a covid patient won't make it, they will take them off. # of beds to machines to staff is important.
3. All of this is preventable if people at least mask up and practice social distance at least and not support dumb ass governors that don't support mandates (Florida and Texas). IF you get covid, and there aren't a lot of beds, you are screwing someone else over there that really needs care for something vs something you have that could have easily been preventable, because you thought you were just getting "cold symptoms."

if everyone who could get vaccinated, got vaccinated, then hospitals wouldn't be over crowded and people's chances of living would be higher as there would be enough equipment, beds and personnel to take care of them. That's why it's important that we all get vaccinated. And still mask up indoors.

I have non vaccinated friends and I bring this up and it's so frustrating trying to explain them this. It'd your choice to not get the vaccine, but it better be a damn good one. Moderna and Pfizer are proven to be safe and effective with no permanent side effects for 99.98% of the population. And when you get the shot, you have to wait for 15 minutes before you leave to see if you get an allergic reaction. It's not that different from a tiny population of people allergic to the flu vaccine

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By the way. It varies by region & demographics, but once you're in the ICU for COVID, the average mortality rate is between 40%-65%

9/10 people in the ICU are unvaccinated.

As a famous video games company once said, do the math.

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I literally had to tell someone that they couldn't get an emergency surgery because there were no beds available anywhere. I will never forget that feeling as long as I live. That person passed away because every single f****** bed in my area was filled with unvaccinated morons. People who "weren't living in fear."

They're not the ones who have to write the death certificates.

If it weren't for games like Genshin Impact that I look forward to playing every day, I would probably not be able to continue doing my job due to the amount of stress and depression.

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If a vaccinated person comes in with so much as a stubbed toe, and they want a doctor to have a look at it, an unvaccinated person (without a legitimate medical exemption) should be kicked out, even if they are on deaths door

And even if you don't die it can absolutely fuck you up permanently, even from a mild case. My heart is getting better, but my dick is probably permanently fucked. Do yourself a favor and prevent that from happening to you.

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Arcanine2009 posted...

No vaccine is 100% effective. Did you know the flu vaccine is only 50-70%? Even if you wait 2 weeks for full protection, you can get a variant that doesn't protect you. But it's still worth it.

...if you're trying to convince me to be pro-vax, you're preaching to the choir. I'm literally in favor of making it mandatory, like, for everyone (except those with medical reasons not to get it, which I understand to be something like 0.00001% of people?). Being realistic about what it will or won't achieve is important; claiming it will do more than it actually will, just gives anti-vaxxers easy ammo to use when they want to say "look at what they're claiming, look how easily I can prove this wrong, now trust all this other bullshit I'm pulling out of my ass".

And my understanding - please feel free to point me in the right direction if I'm wrong on this - is that between Delta's contagiousness and the reduced vaccine effectiveness against it compared to earlier strains, even with 100% coverage, Delta would still be able to circulate - albeit much more slowly, and causing far, far less carnage along the way. This is without taking into account that in practice, nothing short of physically forcing everyone to get the vaccine is going to achieve 100% coverage (and not even that once you take into account children too young to receive it).

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Trumble posted...

And my understanding - please feel free to point me in the right direction if I'm wrong on this

I have already explained several times that you're wrong here. With 100% coverage it will become extinct. It's not even a matter worth entertaining that this scenario would not end COVID permanently.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

I have already explained several times that you're wrong here. With 100% coverage it will become extinct. It's not even a matter worth entertaining that this scenario would not end COVID permanently.

You haven't explained anything, you've just said "no you're wrong" several times. Whether the scenario you describe would actually hold up, depends on how close to 100% effective it is. Estimates for the effectiveness vs Delta (in terms of getting infected at all) range from 60% to 90%. Delta, uncontrolled, is estimated to have an R number around 6, which to bring Reff under 1, would mean the vaccine would need to be at least ~83.3% effective in terms of preventing infection (again, yes, it's far more effective than this at preventing serious illness, but that's not the subject at hand) - unless the vaccine is combined with further measures on top of vaccination, such as continued mask usage.

So, whether or not 100% coverage would outright eradicate the virus, or merely slow it down to a crawl while reducing serious illness to negligable levels, depends on just how far off 100% effective it is. And the difference is important, as the former means soon enough it's gone, while the later means it's still out there, vaccinations need to continue for eg. children who newly become eligible, boosters if needed, etc.

Feel free to go do a quick check on my past posts on "that site" if you want to be sure I'm not just some anti-vax moron first, before you bother replying. I'm not against the vaccine, but I'm also not in favor of setting misleading expectations for it either.

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Trumble posted...

You haven't explained anything, you've just said "no you're wrong" several times. Whether the scenario you describe would actually hold up, depends on how close to 100% effective it is. Estimates for the effectiveness vs Delta (in terms of getting infected at all) range from 60% to 90%. Delta, uncontrolled, is estimated to have an R number around 6, which to bring Reff under 1, would mean the vaccine would need to be at least ~83.3% effective in terms of preventing infection (again, yes, it's far more effective than this at preventing serious illness, but that's not the subject at hand) - unless the vaccine is combined with further measures on top of vaccination, such as continued mask usage.

No. In fact, Moderna and Pfizer are both over 90% effective at preventing in clinical trials. This was literally the very first piece of news about the vaccine. They were 100% effective at preventing serious illness in the clinical trials but all that really means it's no one in the clinical trials was severely ill. With live data we can tell the vaccine is still over 90% effective at preventing and the serious illness rate is 1/18,000 or something like that which isn't 100% but pretty fucking close.

Shit like sinovac is useless long term but the stuff we have now fucking works and if everyone got it the virus would be extinct. AND with 100% coverage it would fucking go extinct WITHOUT MASKS. You add masks on top of 100% coverage and it'll go super turbo extinct.

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DuranOfForcena posted...

nobody who knows one bit about what the fuck they are talking about has told anyone this, ever

Right, which is why I wouldn't put it past CNN lol


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Wait, the vaccines dont stop transmission? Then why they make us take them?

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