Current Events > Why can't Dave Chappelle make fun of trans people?

(+) Yeah! (+)

dj1200 posted...

All Im doing is asking a question in this topic. Are trans people off limits for comedy is basically what Im asking I guess. And remember, I havent seen the Chappell thing. Im asking about it.

Non trans people should not be making trans people the butt of jokes based on confirming negative perceptions of trans people.

You can make jokes regarding trans people concerning how bigotry is big dumb, or explore stereotypes. What you can (but absolutely shouldn't) do is be a non trans person telling jokes where the punchline is "haha, they're not real women/men"

Just like a white person technically can, but shouldn't be out here telling jokes about black people where the punchline is "yeah, they actually are more naturally violent"

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He can

And he did

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AP3Brain posted...

I'd get this expectation when it comes to leaders or experts but why try to extend this out to comedians and celebrities?

What makes the words of leaders uniquely influential compared to comedians and celebrities? That seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction, especially considering we know people like Jenny McCarthy, Joe Rogan, Gwenyth Paltrow, the Kardashians, and dozens if not hundreds of other high profile people have a tremendous amount of pull in the minds of millions of people day in and day out.

dj1200 posted...

well, they arent ciswomen. Correct me if Im wrong, but the general assumption is when someone says women, they are taking about cis women

And that assumption carries a lot of weight in conversations like this. TERFs generally don't even recognize the concept of cis-women because that validates the existence of trans-women, something they vehemently deny. Their core tenet is that there are only women and trans-women intrinsically can never be a part of that group, for the very reasons stated in his joke.

legendary_zell posted...

Non trans people should not be making trans people the butt of jokes based on confirming negative perceptions of trans people.

You can make jokes regarding trans people concerning how bigotry is big dumb, or explore stereotypes. What you can (but absolutely shouldn't) do is be a non trans person telling jokes where the punchline is "haha, they're not real women/men"

Just like a white person technically can, but shouldn't be out here telling jokes about black people where the punchline is "yeah, they actually are more naturally violent"

so are you familiar with and against Chappelles earlier comedy when he made fun of black stereotypes? (I.e the crackhead character)

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Solid Snake07 posted...

He can

And he did

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dj1200 posted...

so are you familiar with and against Chappelles earlier comedy when he made fun of black stereotypes? (I.e the crackhead character)

This is such a weird thing that keeps coming up.

Why is it so odd to some people to think that some are taking issue with one particular set and not the entire man as a package? Where is that rule written?

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CyricZ posted...

This is such a weird thing that keeps coming up.

Why is it so odd to some people to think that some are taking issue with one particular set and not the entire man as a package? Where is that rule written?

It's also a weird thing to bring up because the bulk of his earlier material and how people perceived it/him because of it was directly responsible for one of the defining moments of his career, yet we're supposed to believe that his trans commentary exists in a bubble filled only with jokes and laughter.

dave chappelle has never in any way incited violence.

bunch of karens want comedy that only pokes fun at certain groups but that's not how it works.

also, the impossible whopper joke was objectively hilarious. anyone offended by that is just a miserable person

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CyricZ posted...

This is such a weird thing that keeps coming up.

Why is it so odd to some people to think that some are taking issue with one particular set and not the entire man as a package? Where is that rule written?

so youre saying you have issue with Dave Chappelle in general?

PlantBased posted...

It's also a weird thing to bring up because the bulk of his earlier material and how people perceived it/him because of it was directly responsible for one of the defining moments of his career, yet we're supposed to believe that his trans commentary exists in a bubble filled only with jokes and laughter.

what exactly are you saying about his prior material?

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dj1200 posted...

what exactly are you saying about his prior material?

I'm referencing his disclosure about how, combined with other factors, his earlier material about black stereotypes on the show came across the wrong way to the wrong people and once he realized that a lot of people were laughing for the wrong reasons (racist reasons) he reached his breaking point and quit. This is a direct contradiction to the repeated assertion by fans that the things he says and does on stage or in the name of comedy are not, in fact, just the fun and jokes we're supposed to believe they are when he talks about trans people.

dj1200 posted...

so youre saying you have issue with Dave Chappelle in general?

I'm sorry if that was worded weird. What I'm saying is that people are taking issue with this special, even if in the past they had no issue with his comedy. That's what's happening. I'm wondering why there is this weird insistence from some people that they would be "required" to not like his other stuff as well.

I mean, his older stuff was just... better. I don't think it had anything to do with the targets.

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ok

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Hmmm...people are really pretending they don't understand how comedy works this far, it's amazing really the knots people twist their minds into in order to feel self righteous in their willingly taken offense.

No one cares if people whine about stuff they find offensive, it can be quite entertaining to watch the meltdowns after all, but people really have a problem when you attack and attempt to deplatform their entertainment. This idea that jokes cause harm needs to be proven, otherwise these calls to deplatform over jokes look insane to the general public. You must remember that without the normies in the center it's nigh impossible to win elections or get anything done, we need to persuade people to come to the left and be welcoming even of the imperfect or you'll find the next Trump figure rise to power and very swiftly fuck us all. Also, from my experience trans people aren't nearly as weak as some of you make them out to be. They're just normal people, stop treating them like there is something wrong with them you transphobic wokescold asshats

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XXD

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sevihaimerej posted...

This idea that jokes cause harm needs to be proven

With what, science?

Trans people are saying these kinds of jokes cause harm because of their lived experience.

So far all I've heard in response is "no they don't".

Also lol if this comedy special is enough to tip "the center" to elect Trump in 2024, then this country wasn't worth saving.

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sevihaimerej posted...

This idea that jokes cause harm needs to be proven,

My proof is grade school. The jokes/memes we were telling, which at times I was at part of, both harmed me and caused harm to others.

CyricZ posted...

With what, science?

Trans people are saying these kinds of jokes cause harm because of their lived experience.

So far all I've heard in response is "no they don't".

Also lol if this comedy special is enough to tip "the center" to elect Trump in 2024, then this country wasn't worth saving.

claiming that jokes cause harm is absurd and indeed would have to be proven to be taken seriously.

not being able to handle a joke directed at you doesn't harm you in any way

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He can. He did.

Why cant people call it out or have an issue with it?

He's just as free to do it as people are to call him out on it.

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andel posted...

claiming that jokes cause harm is absurd and indeed would have to be proven to be taken seriously.

With what, science?

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SSJPurple posted...

Some people just cant take a joke

CyricZ posted...

With what, science?

Trans people are saying these kinds of jokes cause harm because of their lived experience.

So far all I've heard in response is "no they don't".

Also lol if this comedy special is enough to tip "the center" to elect Trump in 2024, then this country wasn't worth saving.

You're saying it's justified to deplatform people over something that can't even be proven? Just take the words of the people on Twitter that spend most of their lives looking for things to be offended by (who are not all trans btw, but most of them are white ;))? K

What does that mean to the average person? What about the lived experience of trans people that disagree? Or...Do you think all trans people have the same beliefs like some kinda creepy hivemind? All trans people aren't radical leftists with no sense of humor, just ask the the black trans woman Twitter wokescolds bullied into suicide (you will need some candles, salt, a bell, and a little of your own blood to accomplish this).

If not proven, which you seem to imply is impossible, this harm needs to at least be something clearly defined and not some vague gibberish definition...

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ThanksUglyGod posted...

My proof is grade school. The jokes/memes we were telling, which at times I was at part of, both harmed me and caused harm to others.

Good thing comedy specials like Chapelle's are rated TV-MA for adults that are mature enough to take a joke without getting offended.

The world can't cater to every single ultra-sensitive person. Comedy shows have always offended people and always will.

ThanksUglyGod posted...

My proof is grade school. The jokes/memes we were telling, which at times I was at part of, both harmed me and caused harm to others.

What harm specifically? Also, how did you come to change in such a way that you were able to recognize this harm?

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I forget who it was, but I think it was Dave, went on rogan and told a story (may have been about Daphne, this was 2 years ago) about a trans fan that went to all of his shows and said "it's great you joke about it because it makes people uncomfortable because they're forced to talk about it".

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sevihaimerej posted...

Just take the words of the people on Twitter that spend most of their lives looking for things to be offended by (who are not all trans btw, but most of them are white ;))? K

So you're saying they're lying.

What about the lived experience of trans people that disagree?

I asked in another topic about exactly this and no one could provide an example.

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CyricZ posted...

So you're saying they're lying.

I asked in another topic about exactly this and no one could provide an example.

No? All wokescolds aren't trans, you must know this.
Do you really have this much difficulty believing that not all trans people share the same beliefs and opinions? That there is actually a lot of diversity even in their lived experience as trans people? So hivemind it is then?

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I'm watching it for the first time right now.

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dj1200 posted...

so are you familiar with and against Chappelles earlier comedy when he made fun of black stereotypes? (I.e the crackhead character)

I've already directly addressed this exact point a few posts ago in this topic.

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I finally watched a lot of it this weekend and it wasnt that bad. He opens his set saying its his last special and is going to go hard and several times makes the audience aware that he is making jokes about things people are going to be upset with. The jokes arent mean spirited or hateful and are pretty funny if you have a sense of humor.

The reaction from some seems like the typical people thinking the world needs to cater to them and they are off limits for being made fun of.


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sevihaimerej posted...

Do you really have this much difficulty believing that not all trans people share the same beliefs and opinions? That there is actually a lot of diversity even in their lived experience as trans people? So hivemind it is then?

No. You don't get to do this.

Your response to "prove it" doesn't get to be "how dare you ask me to prove it".

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sevihaimerej posted...

You're saying it's justified to deplatform people over something that can't even be proven? Just take the words of the people on Twitter that spend most of their lives looking for things to be offended by (who are not all trans btw, but most of them are white ;))? K

What does that mean to the average person? What about the lived experience of trans people that disagree? Or...Do you think all trans people have the same beliefs like some kinda creepy hivemind? All trans people aren't radical leftists with no sense of humor, just ask the the black trans woman Twitter wokescolds bullied into suicide (you will need some candles, salt, a bell, and a little of your own blood to accomplish this).

If not proven, which you seem to imply is impossible, this harm needs to at least be something clearly defined and not some vague gibberish definition...

Well for one, many trans employees at Netflix seem to think it's harmful. If you read my posts throughout this topic, I've already directly identified what's harmful about it.

Comedy can't be immune from criticism exactly because it's often taken to be closer to the truth than other speech, especially direct political speech from politicians and the media.

That's exactly why people cite George Carlin, Jon Stewart, South Park, and yes Dave Chappelle in actual political arguments. You can't rely on the idea that comedy pushes boundaries and forces people to think and then in the same breath argue that it has no influence on what people think and can't possibly harm anyone.


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CyricZ posted...

No. You don't get to do this.

Your response to "prove it" doesn't get to be "how dare you ask me to prove it".

You don't seem worth the effort, your posting style seems very reminiscent of trolling and you never respond to a full post but I will give you a chance. I'm really not trying to go to the cesspool known as Twitter for any reason but I will if you do one thing...
You see, when it comes to comedy I don't think people that don't share the lived experience of a fellow person with a sense humour have any place speaking on it, prove to me you have a sense of humour and I will gladly reciprocate. Yes you do know I'm not being serious with that but I'm still not gonna play along with your contrarion bs until you make me laugh :)

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sevihaimerej posted...

What harm specifically? Also, how did you come to change in such a way that you were able to recognize this harm?

I started to answer this with a story from high school, but it was a lot of typing and I don't know who's gonna read a long-ass post. The TLDR version is: even though I had gay friends and support gay rights, I still had some homophobic behaviors learned from media that poked fun at gay people, and it took my friends ridiculing me for me to realize that I was the asshole.

sevihaimerej posted...

Just take the words of the people on Twitter that spend most of their lives looking for things to be offended by (who are not all trans btw, but most of them are white ;))? K

If this ruins someone's credibility than the people Chappelle is aligning himself with are equally lacking in credibility, considering TERFs are a white majority group who are also terminally online, constantly offended by and lashing out at anything trans positive. Their patron saint befouled her legacy as a beloved children's author because she couldn't refrain from being a melodramatic asshole on twitter.

sevihaimerej posted...

You don't seem worth the effort, your posting style seems very reminiscent of trolling and you never respond to a full post but I will give you a chance. I'm really not trying to go to the cesspool known as Twitter for any reason but I will if you do one thing...
You see, when it comes to comedy I don't think people that don't share the lived experience of a fellow person with a sense humour have any place speaking on it, prove to me you have a sense of humour and I will gladly reciprocate. Yes you do know I'm not being serious with that but I'm still not gonna play along with your contrarion bs until you make me laugh :)

Stop me if you've heard this one.

I accept your surrender.

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legendary_zell posted...

Isn't the punchline of the joke that they're not real women then? The punchline isn't that the comparison is ridiculous or that people who say that kind of thing are bigoted, it's literally the underlying point that he's making in the joke.

It's just like you can make jokes regarding black people, on the subject of black people, or involving black people, but you will receive backlash when black people are the butt of the joke through reinforcing negative stereotypes or cultural perceptions.

No he says theyre real women. The joke is just poking fun at the parallel with Beyond/Impossible meat in that their vaginas are kind of like the real thing but not as good.

Its just a joke lol


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ThanksUglyGod posted...

I started to answer this with a story from high school, but it was a lot of typing and I don't know who's gonna read a long-ass post. The TLDR version is: even though I had gay friends and support gay rights, I still had some homophobic behaviors learned from media that poked fun at gay people, and it took my friends ridiculing me for me to realize that I was the asshole.

That doesn't describe actual harm unless your jokes involved actual violence. That does however raise an interesting point about how dramatic the shift in ideology has been in such a short time, most normies (most people in general) still adhere to the old gender binary and see being trans as a mental illness, this can go away but attacking comedians isn't going to do anything but discourage fans of those comedians from looking into these new ideas. This could be an opportunity for some long overdue uncomfortable conversations we need to have to make the world better but only if those that fail the purity test have some place in society to be "shown the way" rather than just condemned to Hell
legendary_zell posted...

Well for one, many trans employees at Netflix seem to think it's harmful. If you read my posts throughout this topic, I've already directly identified what's harmful about it.

Comedy can't be immune from criticism exactly because it's often taken to be closer to the truth than other speech, especially direct political speech from politicians and the media.

That's exactly why people cite George Carlin, Jon Stewart, South Park, and yes Dave Chappelle in actual political arguments. You can't rely on the idea that comedy pushes boundaries and forces people to think and then in the same breath argue that it has no influence on what people think and can't possibly harm anyone.

The problem there is that people distrust the media and politicians more than they distrust comedians (and rightfully so in many cases). I'm not saying no comedy anywhere can be harmful, just that the jokes in this particular special don't seem like they could possibly lead to any actual harm in real life. You do make good points though, perhaps you could walk me through one of the specific jokes in this special and what real world harm it could cause?
PlantBased posted...

If this ruins someone's credibility than the people Chappelle is aligning himself with are equally lacking in credibility, considering TERFs are a white majority group who are also terminally online, constantly offended by and lashing out at anything trans positive. Their patron saint befouled her legacy as a beloved children's author because she couldn't refrain from being a melodramatic asshole on twitter.

I don't think he really understands the ideological boundaries he's skating on but the idea that trans women are women is a very new idea and one that hasn't been sold to the public in any meaningful way. People only become aware of these ideas when a celebrity they like gets "canceled" over it, it helps start a conversation but that's only helpful if said conversation isn't so hostile as to push people away.
CyricZ posted...

Stop me if you've heard this one.

I accept your surrender.

Heard it already, not my cup of tea. You have 2 more chances :)

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SSJPurple posted...

No he says theyre real women. The joke is just poking fun at the parallel with Beyond/Impossible meat in that their vaginas are kind of like the real thing but not as good.

Its just a joke lol

This is interesting coming from someone who is staunchly anti-plant based and has maligned those products.

ThanksUglyGod posted...

Cuz his trans jokes suck. Family Guy level quality.

^^^This is really the bottom line. Chappelles transgender jokes were on the level of hur Im a helicopter LMAO I SO FUNNY. Lost a lot of respect for the dude.

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Shablagoo posted...

^^^This is really the bottom line. Chappelles transgender jokes were on the level of hur Im a helicopter LMAO I SO FUNNY. Lost a lot of respect for the dude.

Youre so full of shit. If youre too sensitive for standup comedy then dont watch it, but don't pretend like you were a fan who LoSt ReSpEcT

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sevihaimerej posted...

I don't think he really understands the ideological boundaries he's skating on but the idea that trans women are women is a very new idea and one that hasn't been sold to the public in any meaningful way. People only become aware of these ideas when a celebrity they like gets "canceled" over it, it helps start a conversation but that's only helpful if said conversation isn't so hostile as to push people away.

Nicely worded. Twitter trans community has to understand a majority of people are a bit ignorant about gender identities. Why be hostile towards people that mean you no harm? Take the opportunity to try to teach people about why something is incorrect.

Some people are just sensitive

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I just watched dave chapelle impersonating white people. Is this bad?
https://youtu.be/eAZ3rw4DcgQ

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Being a standup comedian really is the move

You literally can't criticize standup comics without people crying "oh ur too SENSITIVE and you can't take a joke"

The vast majority of the people saying any of that shit aren't even listening to criticism from the actual LGBT community or trying to comprehend what they're saying. You can say literally anything you want and people who lack critical thinking will always defend you because of your profession.

And then you have the people who are like "well, he talked about his trans friend"... and you already know they know nothing about the context behind that. That's all they know; is that he had a trans friend and therefore he can't possibly be a TERF.
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One_Day_Remains posted...

Being a standup comedian really is the move

I wish my bowels would be a stand up comedian. cuz they aint movin :(

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sevihaimerej posted...

I don't think he really understands the ideological boundaries he's skating on but the idea that trans women are women is a very new idea and one that hasn't been sold to the public in any meaningful way. People only become aware of these ideas when a celebrity they like gets "canceled" over it, it helps start a conversation but that's only helpful if said conversation isn't so hostile as to push people away.

That's a hard sell, considering his vehement proclamation of his affinity for his preferred gender construct, delivered as an act of defiance.

He's one of the most insightful social commentators of the last few decades, something he displayed many times during his latest special, so I think it's a stretch to say he doesn't fully understand the TERF position or he wouldn't look into them before saying he agrees with them, especially since recognizing and critiquing white people's racism, which is an integral part of TERFdom, is his specialty. He's still very much at peak ability to do that, too.

I don't know that it's possible that he would haphazardly align himself with white-majority TERFs not having at least an inkling of how awful they are, truly an affront to everything he's talked about not just in the special prior to that but what he's worked for over his career, or that it would actually make his position more palatable if that were the case.

That would be a massive oversight that is certainly possible but not one I'm ready to accept, considering he's doubled down on his own TERF views and his alliance with them. He even talked about how toxic white feminism has been towards black women; who the fuck does he think all these twitter bozo TERFs are? They have the same roots and are largely the same people today: white women whose struggle is manifestly about the interests of white women within a hierarchy that has white people situated at the top.

That's what's crazy about some of the jokes from this special, especially the Beyond/Impossible one. "Gender is a fact because women give birth with what's between their legs and trans-women have a poor imitation of it that can't do that" is textbook transphobic sentiment and a pillar of TERF ideology that is frequently found alongside vitriol aimed at every other target of TERFs, including black men, just with a thin veneer of his brand of humor.

It looks like he either fully knows who TERFs are and is willing to align with them against trans people despite the fact that they do not have much if any concern for the well-being of black people, or he doesn't know and is so at odds with the idea of trans people that he'll join whichever side validates his feelings without due diligence regarding the full extent of their beliefs. Neither one of those things is particularly endearing and while I'm open to it, I don't see how other possibilities make sense.

There's also the problem with the riffraff he's courted outside of the TERF crowd, which I think can be summed up with this reviewer of his latest special:

PlantBased posted...

That's a hard sell, considering his vehement proclamation of his affinity for his preferred gender construct, delivered as an act of defiance.

He's one of the most insightful social commentators of the last few decades, something he displayed many times during his latest special, so I think it's a stretch to say he doesn't fully understand the TERF position or he wouldn't look into them before saying he agrees with them, especially since recognizing and critiquing white people's racism, which is an integral part of TERFdom, is his specialty. He's still very much at peak ability to do that, too.

I don't know that it's possible that he would haphazardly align himself with white-majority TERFs not having at least an inkling of how awful they are, truly an affront to everything he's talked about not just in the special prior to that but what he's worked for over his career, or that it would actually make his position more palatable if that were the case.

That would be a massive oversight that is certainly possible but not one I'm ready to accept, considering he's doubled down on his own TERF views and his alliance with them. He even talked about how toxic white feminism has been towards black women; who the fuck does he think all these twitter bozo TERFs are? They have the same roots and are largely the same people today: white women whose struggle is manifestly about the interests of white women within a hierarchy that has white people situated at the top.

That's what's crazy about some of the jokes from this special, especially the Beyond/Impossible one. "Gender is a fact because women give birth with what's between their legs and trans-women have a poor imitation of it that can't do that" is textbook transphobic sentiment and a pillar of TERF ideology that is frequently found alongside vitriol aimed at every other target of TERFs, including black men, just with a thin veneer of his brand of humor.

It looks like he either fully knows who TERFs are and is willing to align with them against trans people despite the fact that they do not have much if any concern for the well-being of black people, or he doesn't know and is so at odds with the idea of trans people that he'll join whichever side validates his feelings without due diligence regarding the full extent of their beliefs. Neither one of those things is particularly endearing and while I'm open to it, I don't see how other possibilities make sense.

There's also the problem with the riffraff he's courted outside of the TERF crowd, which I think can be summed up with this reviewer of his latest special:

Only one star for Midsommar?! Fuck that's the only thing I can focus on, that movie was fucking brilliant! I mean, neither of us can truly know what's going on in his head so there is a decent enough likelihood that you may be right...how would you rate Midsommar?

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sevihaimerej posted...

Only one star for Midsommar?! Fuck that's the only thing I can focus on, that movie was fucking brilliant! I mean, neither of us can truly know what's going on in his head so there is a decent enough likelihood that you may be right...how would you rate Midsommar?

I get the impression the reviewer in that image hasnt actually viewed any of that media.


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Turtlebread posted...

I get the impression the reviewer in that image hasnt actually viewed any of that media.

Thats why its stupid to base your argument on one random reviewer

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