Current Events > Do peopleWho hate centrists really think it's a neutral position?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Also I maintain that you guys not agreeing on what a centrist is is an amazingly telling tableau of what's ineffective and self-serving about centrism.

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they targeted centrists

centrists

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Trumble posted...

That you assume political disagreement has to be equal to hate says more about you than anything else.

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ColdOne666 posted...

Being a Centrist means not being brainwashed by the major parties and not going far left/ right crazy.

All the people stuck on a bandwagon will now come on and tell everyone how wrong we are for being sensible.

So in your eyes there's only: Far-Right, Center-Right, Radical Left and Centrist then. Lol.

Because most leftists (actual leftists) don't like Democrats

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CyricZ posted...

Also I maintain that you guys not agreeing on what a centrist is is an amazingly telling tableau of what's ineffective and self-serving about centrism.

Once again, you are making the mistake of thinking that centrism is some kind of tribal identity rather than merely a descriptive term. Much like left-wing and right-wing also should be, for that matter.

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Stop arguing with Cyric dude.

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Veggeta_MAX posted...

Stop arguing with Cyric dude.

There's the side benefit of that other people reading may have wondered the same arguments, and are now seeing why those arguments are wrong. That's usually the main motivation behind arguing with that kind of person, with the side benefit of "in the rare case where they are genuine, it may sway them too".

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Trumble posted...

It would be, which is probably why the take is actually "If people from both sides regularly think you're on the opposite side from them, you're probably actually in the middle". Note how the nature of the disagreement is more specific, and no subjective judgement is made about right or wrong, unlike your strawman.

You could also just have an extreme jumble of opinions. I've seen that a fair bit as well.


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legendary_zell posted...

He's never posted a single left wing thing in the entire time he's been posting here

you have no clue what you're talking about. i'm a known leftist here. people think i made some big turn because i think democrats are corrupt, liberals are cringe, and i'm funny. stop thinking you're doing activism on gamefaqs and lighten up

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Trumble posted...

There's the side benefit of that other people reading may have wondered the same arguments, and are now seeing why those arguments are wrong. That's usually the main motivation behind arguing with that kind of person, with the side benefit of "in the rare case where they are genuine, it may sway them too".

You're right, except when people leave most topics, they pretty much forget about any progress forged within that topic. So the next time we all find ourselves in a left, right, or middle topic, we'll be seeing the same old excuses and accusations thrown around without any real growth involved.

blakenbl00 posted...

You're right, except when people leave most topics, they pretty much forget about any progress forged within that topic. So the next time we all find ourselves in a left, right, or middle topic, we'll be seeing the same old excuses and accusations thrown around without any real growth involved.

From the people who just want to adamantly argue their opinion (and often, opinion should be in quotes) is the only right answer, sure. The same arguments are going to come up again. They're not generally the people who the answers are for.

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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

So in your eyes there's only: Far-Right, Center-Right, Radical Left and Centrist then. Lol.

Because most leftists (actual leftists) don't like Democrats

That dude is another example of what I'm talking about. He's identifying as a centrist here and I've never seen him post anything remotely left wing or even liberal. It's been exclusively attacking the left.

Also to respond to Trumble, someone might have coherent opinions that point exclusively in one direction not because it aligns with their sports team or tribal identity but because their values lead them there. For example, if a core thing for you is opposing unjust hierarchies, basically any right wing view becomes toxic to you because they're almost all built on preserving hierarchy.

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ledbowman posted...

you have no clue what you're talking about. i'm a known leftist here. people think i made some big turn because i think democrats are corrupt, liberals are cringe, and i'm funny. stop thinking you're doing activism on gamefaqs and lighten up

We've seen your posts dude, you're not fooling anyone, what you're doing is wasting your life.

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"We, the centrists, refuse to subscribe to tribalism, unlike them."

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legendary_zell posted...

Also to respond to Trumble, someone might have coherent opinions that point exclusively in one direction not because it aligns with their sports team or tribal identity but because their values lead them there. For example, if a core thing for you is opposing unjust hierarchies, basically any right wing view becomes toxic to you because they're almost all built on preserving hierarchy.

And those people usually can understand what centrism actually means. Also, the vast majority of those people will often at least have a few opinions that don't align with what someone going purely on tribalism-type politics would.

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Trumble posted...

Once again, you are making the mistake of thinking that centrism is some kind of tribal identity rather than merely a descriptive term. Much like left-wing and right-wing also should be, for that matter.

Well, here's the problem. American Democrats are, at best, centrists by the standards of most other countries on the globe. Leftists typically don't like Democrats because they're too right and right-wingers don't like Democrats because they're too left.

I understand that centrist is more of a general term and not a specific ideology. But what exactly makes you a centrist if even the Democrats are too left of your beliefs? Keep in mind that not supporting either party doesn't automatically align you with the center; I don't align with the Democrats or the Republicans politically, and I'd classify myself as a leftist.

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legendary_zell posted...

We've seen your posts dude, you're not fooling anyone, what you're doing is wasting your life.

Lebdowman is such a stereotypical contrarian troll that it's boring. As soon as Trump was out and Biden was in he changed from leftist troll to rightist troll

Centrists position themselves between two right wing political parties, so I consider them solidly right wing, with an incoherent political ideology.

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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I understand that centrist is more of a general term and not a specific ideology. But what exactly makes you a centrist if even the Democrats are too left of your beliefs? Keep in mind that not supporting either party doesn't automatically align you with the center; I don't align with the Democrats or the Republicans politically, and I'd classify myself as a leftist.

The first mistake here is trying to define centrism in terms of parties in the first place. If the Democrats were to become alt-right overnight while the Republicans moved to blind middle ground on everything, "centrism" would still mean exactly the same thing it does now. No one who wasn't already a centrist would now be one; no one who was one wouldn't be.

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The only thing that unites centrists is "calling yourself a centrist".

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Trumble posted...

The first mistake here is trying to define centrism in terms of parties in the first place. If the Democrats were to become alt-right overnight while the Republicans moved to blind middle ground on everything, "centrism" would still mean exactly the same thing it does now. No one who wasn't already a centrist would now be one; no one who was one wouldn't be.

Not sure what you're getting at.

My whole point is that America's political spectrum skews towards the right, to the point where even the "left-wing" party is more politically center than anything else, and that's being generous.

Identifying as center in our current political climate puts you somewhere right of Democrat and left of Republican which...still puts you firmly right on the political spectrum. In other words:

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

Centrists position themselves between two right wing political parties

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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Not sure what you're getting at.

My whole point is that America's political spectrum skews towards the right, to the point where even the "left-wing" party is more politically center than anything else, and that's being generous.

Identifying as center in our current political climate puts you somewhere right of Democrat and left of Republican which...still puts you firmly right on the political spectrum. In other words:

There is some sense in what he's saying here, considering America has been traditionally red and how a lof of dems and blues rally to the progressives for certain votes, then distance themselves afterwards.

In general "centrists" isn't even a thing, except for when people want to criticize it. As a whole, political independents whom aren't affiliated with a major party tend to be a quiet majority in the U.S.

TBQH if you look at most of the posts whining about centrism/moderates on CE, it's usually extremely left-wing people whose main complaint is that a lot of self-proclaimed centrists are closet republicans. There's occasional truth to this, BUT as a widespread stance it's extremely reductive and disregards the fact that the vast majority of Americans are politically moderate, outside of the echo chamber that is this message board.
(It's also super grody considering the idea of "You believe ______, therefore you're a ______." is one of the biggest issues driving political tribalism in America today)

There's dozens of sides to almost every issue that's even remotely political because, contrary to armchair politics, governing a country as large and diverse as America is really fucking complicated. If you strip away emotionally-driven arguments like "There's no room for compromise when dealing with racists", then you start to realize that there's plenty of people out there who have a mixture of traditionally left and right wing beliefs who aren't automatically racists/socialist/what have you, because of one given stance.

(Calling it now, someone's going to accuse me of being a trumper for saying this, despite the fact I haven't voted for a Republican presidential candidate in my entire life)

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LostForest posted...

There's dozens of sides to almost every issue that's even remotely political because, contrary to armchair politics, governing a country as large and diverse as America is really fucking complicated. If you strip away emotionally-driven arguments like "There's no room for compromise when dealing with racists", then you start to realize that there's plenty of people out there who have a mixture of traditionally left and right wing beliefs who aren't automatically racists/socialist/what have you, because of one given stance.

Wise words.

You should tell them to this guy:

LostForest posted...

it's usually extremely left-wing people

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CyricZ posted...

Wise words.

You should tell them to this guy:

I'm not making assumptions. I'm saying there's a lot of people who say things like this:

legendary_zell posted...

That dude is another example of what I'm talking about. He's identifying as a centrist here and I've never seen him post anything remotely left wing or even liberal.

I'm referring to people who blatantly identify as left-wing.

It's not the same as saying "That person supports national medicare. They're one of those socialists."

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LostForest posted...

In general "centrists" isn't even a thing, except for when people want to criticize it. As a whole, political independents whom aren't affiliated with a major party tend to be a quiet majority in the U.S.

TBQH if you look at most of the posts whining about centrism/moderates on CE, it's usually extremely left-wing people whose main complaint is that a lot of self-proclaimed centrists are closet republicans. There's occasional truth to this, BUT as a widespread stance it's extremely reductive and disregards the fact that the vast majority of Americans are politically moderate, outside of the echo chamber that is this message board.
(It's also super grody considering the idea of "You believe ______, therefore you're a ______." is one of the biggest issues driving political tribalism in America today)

There's dozens of sides to almost every issue that's even remotely political because, contrary to armchair politics, governing a country as large and diverse as America is really fucking complicated. If you strip away emotionally-driven arguments like "There's no room for compromise when dealing with racists", then you start to realize that there's plenty of people out there who have a mixture of traditionally left and right wing beliefs who aren't automatically racists/socialist/what have you, because of one given stance.

(Calling it now, someone's going to accuse me of being a trumper for saying this, despite the fact I haven't voted for a Republican presidential candidate in my entire life)

Outstanding post

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CyricZ posted...

The only thing that unites centrists is "calling yourself a centrist".

You're almost there. Keep thinking and you'll get it soon.

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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Not sure what you're getting at.

My whole point is that America's political spectrum skews towards the right, to the point where even the "left-wing" party is more politically center than anything else, and that's being generous.

Identifying as center in our current political climate puts you somewhere right of Democrat and left of Republican which...still puts you firmly right on the political spectrum. In other words:

If the Democrats and Republicans are both right-wing, that doesn't change where center is. It just means you have two parties to the right of it. And America is not the entire world, for that matter.

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The problem with centrists today:


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Elmer_Glue posted...

The problem with centrists today:

Imagine how much embarassment you could've saved yourself by actually reading through the topic.

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LostForest posted...

I'm referring to people who blatantly identify as left-wing.

He didn't identify as left-wing. He only said what that person has never said. You don't have to be left-wing to observe someone never say left-wing things.

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Elmer_Glue posted...

The problem with centrists today:

I literally find your post revolting.

Trumble posted...

Imagine how much embarassment you could've saved yourself by actually reading through the topic.

Yep, he is exactly who I'm talking about. It's embarrassing watching people post those disingenuous comics and really think they're making a point

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Also, CyricZ you're ignoring the fact that I'm only calling out people on CE. It's not an isolated criticism of the left as a whole. Don't cherry-pick, dude.

LostForest posted...

TBQH if you look at most of the posts whining about centrism/moderates on CE, it's usually extremely left-wing people whose main complaint is that a lot of self-proclaimed centrists are closet republicans.

FWIW I see the exact same phenomenon reversed in conservative communities on other social media. It's just that here on CE, the political landscape is heavily slanted in favor of liberal politics. But as a whole, most communities leaning towards one way or the other hate independents/moderates/centrists, whatever term you want to use, in spite of the fact that most Americans tend to identify that way. It's just that social media tends to turn into echo chambers, so it gives the illusion otherwise.

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BignutzisBack posted...

Yep, he is exactly who I'm talking about. It's embarrassing watching people post those disingenuous comics and really think they're making a point

He should've rephrased his post as
"The problem with far left with centralists today"

Trumble posted...

If the Democrats and Republicans are both right-wing, that doesn't change where center is. It just means you have two parties to the right of it. And America is not the entire world, for that matter.

It doesn't change where the center is, but identifying as a centrist puts you about where the Democrats are. Slightly left of that puts you about where Bernie Sanders is.

You may not agree with them on all policy, you may not even call yourself a Democrat, but that's not the point.

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LostForest posted...

Also, CyricZ you're ignoring the fact that I'm only calling out people on CE. It's not an isolated criticism of the left as a whole. FWIW I see the exact same phenomenon reversed in conservative communities on other social media. It's just that here on CE, the political landscape is heavily slanted in favor of liberal politics. But as a whole, most communities leaning towards one way or the other hate independents/moderates/centrists, whatever term you want to use, in spite of the fact that most Americans tend to identify that way. It's just that social media tends to turn into echo chambers, so it gives the illusion otherwise.

Astute observation.

Trumble posted...

You're almost there. Keep thinking and you'll get it soon.

Wait no. I got it.



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LostForest posted...

Also, CyricZ you're ignoring the fact that I'm only calling out people on CE. It's not an isolated criticism of the left as a whole.

Oh honey I would never suggest that.

You just looked at the people you saw and said "they're radical left".

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There's no amount of explanation or sources that you guys can give Cyric that will make him budge from his narrative of righteousness. Don't none of yall even try.

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CyricZ posted...

Oh honey

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LostForest posted...

I'm not making assumptions. I'm saying there's a lot of people who say things like this:

I'm referring to people who blatantly identify as left-wing.

What do you want me to say? If that guy is a centrist, I'm a cow.

Someone refusing to identify with one of two party doesn't mean they're not highly ideological. My analysis is truthful and isn't ignoring the American political reality. I'm well aware that most Americans don't think the way I do and have a grab bag of opinions. But what you're not recognizing is that not all opinions in the grab bag are equal. Being okay with weed and the gays but thinking that we should also abolish most social programs doesn't make you a moderate or a centrist, it makes you far right economically and moderate socially, aka right wing.

You could also be ideologically aligned with the Trumpist movement without having ever voted for any Republican (not that you are)

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144 new posts. God damn yall

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LostForest posted...

In general "centrists" isn't even a thing, except for when people want to criticize it. As a whole, political independents whom aren't affiliated with a major party tend to be a quiet majority in the U.S.

TBQH if you look at most of the posts whining about centrism/moderates on CE, it's usually extremely left-wing people whose main complaint is that a lot of self-proclaimed centrists are closet republicans. There's occasional truth to this, BUT as a widespread stance it's extremely reductive and disregards the fact that the vast majority of Americans are politically moderate, outside of the echo chamber that is this message board.
(It's also super grody considering the idea of "You believe ______, therefore you're a ______." is one of the biggest issues driving political tribalism in America today)

There's dozens of sides to almost every issue that's even remotely political because, contrary to armchair politics, governing a country as large and diverse as America is really fucking complicated. If you strip away emotionally-driven arguments like "There's no room for compromise when dealing with racists", then you start to realize that there's plenty of people out there who have a mixture of traditionally left and right wing beliefs who aren't automatically racists/socialist/what have you, because of one given stance.

(Calling it now, someone's going to accuse me of being a trumper for saying this, despite the fact I haven't voted for a Republican presidential candidate in my entire life)

This.

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SoggyBottomBoy posted...

144 new posts. God damn yall

tbh, TC, this was a very enlightening discussion that's been bothering me for a few months on CE. It's literally made it impossible for me to enter political topics without being accused of being far right or far left. Thanks for posting so that we can share our views in a relatively open and calm fashion.

blakenbl00 posted...

It's literally made it impossible for me to enter political topics without being accused of being far right or far left.

Why do you care about that so much? Why are the labels so important to you?

Also I thought you said you were leaving. You made a big show of it.

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CyricZ posted...

Wait no. I got it.

Defending "centrism" is like defending "purple". Once again, it's a descriptive term, not an ideology.

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CyricZ posted...

Why do you care about that so much?

You should do us all a favor and ask yourself that in front of a mirror every time the word centrist enters your mind.

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I guess my main point in all of this is what makes a centrist actually a centrist, other than not being aligned with either major political party, something that isn't inherent to centrism even a little bit?

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CyricZ posted...

Why do you care about that so much? Why are the labels so important to you?

Also I thought you said you were leaving. You made a big show of it.

I did, came back and you're still here, blue in the face defending and arguing the dumbest of shit.
I've known you for nearly 20 years, you seriously never change Cyric.