Current Events > One Punch Man could easily beat Goku and Superman (one punch man spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

WingsOfGood posted...

or instance, the Kamehameha that Roshi uses to blow up the moon quickly is much too weak to hurt Goku. Yet as mentioned he then is bruised by a regular gun and a laser gun.

You're right. I have no rebuttal to that, since that was extremely shitty writing on Akira Toriyama's part.

Heres Goku taking Universe-busting attacks from multiple characters, and that happens. Fucking awful.

WingsOfGood posted...

Also stuff like craters being so easy to make without actual impact tremors like other user mentioned.

I think thats just animation budget? Dragonball isn't known for its top-tier animation unless its a Movie like DBS Broly.

---

Nemu posted...

And? That's still within the logic of the universe. He's just a level 99999999 character in a world where the highest leveled person is like 100000. He's broken through a cap, but not through logic itself (yet at least). It's a comedy gag series, but you're ignoring that the author abides by set rules and logic. The joke is one of broken expectations, not broken logic.

He has already broken through every cap, that's his literal personal hell, it's the entire main fundamental premise of the character, and manga. He's the end result of every character that had to go to even more over the top power creep to stand out from last characters that had out of control power creep, because the characters from the manga before them had out of control power creep. He is the inevitable last result of that line of progression. So powerful from the outset that it is no longer possible to creep any further.

He is the one punch man. It's a very straightforward and literal name for the manga.

---

Disengaged posted...

He has already broken through every cap, that's his literal personal hell, it's the entire main fundamental premise of the character, and manga. He's the end result of every character that had to go to even more over the top power creep to stand out from last characters that had out of control power creep, because the characters from the manga before them had out of control power creep. He is the inevitable last result of that line of progression.

He is the one punch man. It's a very straightforward and literal name for the manga.

Yes, we have established the premise of the series several times now. That doesn't mean the series doesn't have its own consistent internal logic that can be translated to any series abiding by similar logic. The only thing that cannot be translated are unknown variables.

SpiritSephiroth posted...

You're right. I have no rebuttal to that, since that was extremely shitty writing on Akira Toriyama's part.

Heres Goku taking Universe-busting attacks from multiple characters, and that happens. Fucking awful.

I think thats just animation budget? Dragonball isn't known for its top-tier animation unless its a Movie like DBS Broly.

I mean, throughout the series the terrain just kinda wobbles around basically for style points and they even go to a desert so it can be dusty as possible when they fight.
The moon is constantly destroyed without any negative effects seen like debris falling and killing people, effects on gravity or anything.

Thanks for them answers folks

---

Nemu posted...

Yes, we have established the premise of the series several times now. That doesn't mean the series doesn't have its own consistent internal logic that can be translated to any series abiding by similar logic. The only thing that cannot be translated are unknown variables.

That IS the series internal consistent logic.

Here's your formula for any and all variables for all time forever:

X=any and all variables for all time forever:
OP=One punch from one punch man.

What will happen=X<OP

It is very consistent.

---

and stuff like this is just cringe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7jEiiT5RDo

WingsOfGood posted...

I mean, throughout the series the terrain just kinda wobbles around basically for style points and they even go to a desert so it can be dusty as possible when they fight.
The moon is constantly destroyed without any negative effects seen like debris falling and killing people, effects on gravity or anything.

I think you're asking a lot. Dragonball has always been a simple anime. Doesn't change the fact that they are still simply planet busters, at least. At most, they can break through dimensions and shake the world of void.

The jump from Z to Super was gigantic in terms of power.

---

Disengaged posted...

That IS the series internal consistent logic.

Here's your formula for any and all variables for all time forever:

X=any and all variables for all time forever:
OP=One punch from one punch man.

What will happen=X<OP

It is very consistent.

No, you're just taking the term gag too literally. DB was also a gag manga that slowly developed consistent structure and then just as slowly dumped that structure later on as AT gave less and less of a fuck.

WingsOfGood posted...

and stuff like this is just cringe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7jEiiT5RDo

Why is this cringe?
We later see him go all out vs. Goku and Goku isn't shielding the planet or anything special and yet it isn't blowing up, nor is the galaxy it exists in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJYI2hnc2SA

Only at the end does it seem to be a small explosion destroyed the planet and yet somehow did not the tiny capsule spaceship.

See, the thing is, this is just like the Phoenix Force in the comics. They show it devouring galaxies blah blah.
Except, that is not in an actual fight and is just used to be like "omg so powerful!"
But what we get rather is Hulk fighting Phoenix Force Cyclops and the Earth is not actually harmed much in the process.

The actual feat is the fight.

Also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w

Yet Vegeta was hurt by a sword.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwf2ILMosEA

You just have to admit that in universe, planets and such things are really fragile

WingsOfGood posted...

Why is this cringe?
We later see him go all out vs. Goku and Goku isn't shielding the planet or anything special and yet it isn't blowing up, nor is the galaxy it exists in.

Dude you are looking into this way too much. Akira already stated this in many interviews. The characters are more than capable of blowing the planets up. The only reason this doesn't happen is because if it does, there would be no story. Simple.

---

WingsOfGood posted...

Yet Vegeta was hurt by a sword.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwf2ILMosEA (click to expand)

You just have to admit that in universe, planets and such things are really fragile

The Manga literally states the tail is a Saiyans weak point. That actually makes sense in the story and is Saiyan biology 101.

---

SpiritSephiroth posted...

Dude you are looking into this way too much. Akira already stated this in many interviews. The characters are more than capable of blowing the planets up. The only reason this doesn't happen is because if it does, there would be no story. Simple.

So Broly who hates Goku with a passion, more than anything, is going to not use his full power fighting Goku?
Nope. That is incorrect. The galaxy they fought in would have been destroyed leaving the two of them in space if indeed this was his real power.

SpiritSephiroth posted...

The Manga literally states the tail is a Saiyans weak point. That actually makes sense in the story and is Saiyan biology 101.

So sayeth the guy who couldn't remember saiyans even had tails when he introduced Goten.

---

TC has to be trolling at this point

---

SpiritSephiroth posted...

The Manga literally states the tail is a Saiyans weak point. That actually makes sense in the story and is Saiyan biology 101.

Oh? Did you forget he cut his armor too and made a wound in his back?
With a simple earth forged Katana.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqeLeBziyVM

See comics like superman and opm at least know a sword that hits those characters will break or bend, not cut them.

Yet Vegeta, who is supposedly so powerful can be.

AND THAT IS WHY Goku being shot by a gun and hurt is actually NOT a contradiction fyi.

WingsOfGood posted...

So Broly who hates Goku with a passion, more than anything, is going to not use his full power fighting Goku?
Nope. That is incorrect. The galaxy they fought in would have been destroyed leaving the two of them in space if indeed this was his real power.

Are you trolling me?

---

Nemu posted...

No, you're just taking the term gag too literally. DB was also a gag manga that slowly developed consistent structure and then just as slowly dumped that structure later on as AT gave less and less of a fuck.

Dr Slump was the gag manga. Db wasn't super serious, like z became, it had gags, but it clearly wasn't a gag like Dr. Slump, it was a take on journey to the west. When it covered the entirety of journey to the west, it of course had to find something else.

Part of the gag with one punch man, is how serious and far they take the gag. Everything is taken too seriously, so much so, that it circles back around to goofy. They take it all the way, the gag, is taken to it's final form. He is the end of the line for shit that's just gotten out of control.

He is the one punch man.

No matter what, ever, he can beat it with one punch, and will end up disappointed and depressed about it.

---

It is so funny though how some watch the scene where Vegeta zaps some dumb nameless planet with some stupid looking characters and are like "wow see! these characters are sooo powerful!"
Yet a few scenes later when a simple sword cuts a gaping wound in his back, they forget all about it. No doubt they try to argue this the most powerful sword in the universe to save face.

WingsOfGood posted...

See comics like superman and opm at least know a sword that hits those characters will break or bend, not cut them.

Yet Vegeta, who is supposedly so powerful can be.

AND THAT IS WHY Goku being shot by a gun and hurt is actually NOT a contradiction fyi.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/debatesjungle/images/a/a2/Main-qimg-6266b954da5662a4b37d55294a9d5b96.png/revision/latest?cb=20181207174359

Nope. Again, just inconsistent writing. Something well known with Dragonball and Akira Toriyama.

---

Seriously though why do people always flock to the "inconsistent writing" defense to mitigate Goku's weaknesses but never to explain away things like "maybe he doesn't really move faster than light"

---

Disengaged posted...

Dr Slump was the gag manga. Db wasn't super serious, like z became, it had gags, but it clearly wasn't a gag like Dr. Slump, it was a take on journey to the west. When it covered the entirety of journey to the west, it of course had to find something else.

Part of the gag with one punch man, is how serious and far they take the gag. Everything is taken too seriously, so much so, that it circles back around to goofy. They take it all the way, the gag, is taken to it's final form. He is the end of the line for shit that's just gotten out of control.

He is the one punch man.

No matter what, ever, he can beat it with one punch, and will end up disappointed and depressed about it.

DB was a mid-way point between gag and serious, leaning heavily towards gag at the start and then slowly shedding it as the fighting picked up. There were plenty of nonsensical 4th wall breaking gags in the early part of it, but those were slowly forgotten in lieu of the more serious tone of the series. OPM is exactly the same. Early chapters are simply the gag. Then ONE slowly builds the universe, justifies Saitama's power with the limiter stuff and the obsession producing power stuff. The gag will never go away in OPM obviously, but the gag is not his power. The gag is how his power is used.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Seriously though why do people always flock to the "inconsistent writing" defense to mitigate Goku's weaknesses but never to explain away things like "maybe he doesn't really move faster than light"

Because when you see someone do something consistently in a series, then in one scene something happens to break that consistency, would you go along with the norm of the consistency or the exception?

---

SpiritSephiroth posted...

Because when you see someone do something consistently in a series, then in one scene something happens to break that consistency, would you go along with the norm of the consistency or the exception?

There's nothing consistent about Goku's speed. He would do more damage by throwing himself at his enemies than he would by punching them.

---

Tyranthraxus posted...

There's nothing consistent about Goku's speed. He would do more damage by throwing himself at his enemies than he would by punching them.

Its funny since some of his attacks actually ARE throwing himself at them.

---

Starting to look like db cast are around high street tier according to feats.

---

WingsOfGood posted...

It is so funny though how some watch the scene where Vegeta zaps some dumb nameless planet with some stupid looking characters and are like "wow see! these characters are sooo powerful!"
Yet a few scenes later when a simple sword cuts a gaping wound in his back, they forget all about it. No doubt they try to argue this the most powerful sword in the universe to save face.

That's literally Toriyamas writing. It's actually a large part of his charm that made him such a huge hit.

Back in the Dr. Slump days he would actually be shown these mistakes by fans and his editor, and turn them into story arcs, often breaking the fourth wall by stating the story arc was started by his mistakes.

He actually got so irritated by his editor pointing out his mistakes, and making him redo things that he made him the final antagonist of the series. He also made him demon emperor piccolo.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Seriously though why do people always flock to the "inconsistent writing" defense to mitigate Goku's weaknesses but never to explain away things like "maybe he doesn't really move faster than light"

Probably because we are different groups of people.

People who entered the scene during dbz's western popularity explosion, aren't aware of Toriyamas .... Quirks, and try and find reasonings for these inconsistencies that aren't 'Toriyamas had anither whoopsie, oh well what happens next?'

---

Tyranthraxus posted...

Seriously though why do people always flock to the "inconsistent writing" defense to mitigate Goku's weaknesses but never to explain away things like "maybe he doesn't really move faster than light"

It is very simple. The supposed feats used to say these characters are so mighty are irrelevant. Like Broly destroying a galaxy doesn't even show him doing that, how he does it, what moves he does etc.
It just shows some no name galaxy going dark and King Kai being scared.

DBZ fans hype these kinda of worthless moments up too much. And when confronted they are like "b-b-but author said it was real" or some dumb bs. So you have to bring them back to reality about what the author has actually written and is canon like Vegeta getting penetrated by regular steel.

Use real feats such as what Broly does to Goku in a fight. I could care less what he does to some random no name galaxy off-screen at the start of a film for no reason other than to inconsistenly and irrationally hype him.

Saitama is just strong enough for any situation.
Goku is just weak enough for anyone who he wants to fight.
If Goku fought enemies Saitama one-shot, Goku would have a semi-serious fight just like he does in Tournament of Power.

Goku is a character who constantly runs into his limits and has to break them. That's the story. So, we as the audience know roughly how strong Goku is.
Saitama is a character who never runs into (doesn't have?) his limits. We as the audience have no idea what his cap is.
Comparing feats to feats is ridiculous. The two stories have different scales, the characters have different goals, there's no fair basis for comparison. The only way to compare them is narratively and narratively Saitama would probably destroy Goku.

Also, I really disagree that OPM is "just a gag manga." It's a lot of things. It's much less pure gag manga than Kinnikuman or Dr Slump. Most of the characters besides Saitama have consistent power levels, far more so than DBZ/DBS. Saitama has fought Frieza stand-ins Cell analogues, world enders, and pseudo-gods. The narrative of his world almost explicitly says, "Saitama is stronger than Goku, look how silly DBZ is." When Goku beats Zeno in a fight we can drag this stupid topic back up.

---

ChocoboMogALT posted...

Comparing feats to feats is ridiculous. The two stories have different scales,

This man understands how it works

WingsOfGood posted...

It is very simple. The supposed feats used to say these characters are so mighty are irrelevant. Like Broly destroying a galaxy doesn't even show him doing that, how he does it, what moves he does etc.
It just shows some no name galaxy going dark and King Kai being scared.

DBZ fans hype these kinda of worthless moments up too much. And when confronted they are like "b-b-but author said it was real" or some dumb bs. So you have to bring them back to reality about what the author has actually written and is canon like Vegeta getting penetrated by regular steel.

Use real feats such as what Broly does to Goku in a fight. I could care less what he does to some random no name galaxy off-screen at the start of a film for no reason other than to inconsistenly and irrationally hype him.

This post actually said:

"Ignore the author but don't ignore him".

lmao.

---

SpiritSephiroth posted...

This post actually said:

"Ignore the author but don't ignore him".

lmao.

Wrong.

It is basically "Author said this character is the strongest in the galaxy!!!"

And me going "oh, so why can steel swords cut his flesh?"

and them being dumbfounded.

Point is

If you go with the: Author is God what he says goes.
Then you have to accept the power of a simple steel sword and bullets. Yet you do not.

So then, you become someone who says "only certain things the author writes and says are true."
Then you have opened a can of worms that lets me say, then that planet is made of foam.

Nemu posted...

DB was a mid-way point between gag and serious, leaning heavily towards gag at the start and then slowly shedding it as the fighting picked up. There were plenty of nonsensical 4th wall breaking gags in the early part of it, but those were slowly forgotten in lieu of the more serious tone of the series. OPM is exactly the same. Early chapters are simply the gag. Then ONE slowly builds the universe, justifies Saitama's power with the limiter stuff and the obsession producing power stuff. The gag will never go away in OPM obviously, but the gag is not his power. The gag is how his power is used.

No man, you don't have the knowledge base required here which is why you are trying to make these arguments.

Dr. Slump was a gag comic. Db was a comedy adventure. It had gags, it was not, a gag. Dbz is action.

Let me put it this way with a super common kind of thing in Dr. Slump. One arc was started because one of the characters found out that the artist (Toriyama) could only draw one kind of girl face, so they decided to start impersonating another character to prank Dr. Slump. This was literally stated by the character. This was an entire arc. Like the sayian saga. Toriyama can't draw: the storyline.

Find one thing comparable to that from db. Heck find one thing halfway comparable to that. Half an arc based on something comparable to the cast found out Toriyama can't draw more than one face.

Opm is a gag manga. Saitama, is the gag, everything else is a ridiculous parody of the super serious hero.

Everyone else has limits. Saitama, does not. He is, again, the one punch man. This is literally why Saitama is always lost in ridiculous ways so the rest of the cast can do their parody. As soon as he shows up, it's over. Always, forever, this will never change, it's the gag.

---

SpiritSephiroth posted...

This post actually said:

"Ignore the author but don't ignore him".

lmao.

The author saying something is very different than the author showing something.
But, again, it doesn't matter. If feats were comparable, both Earths would be destroyed.

Arguing what characters could do is like arguing that CW Flash shouldn't get punched by random shark man. Sure, he could constantly be in Flashtime and never get hit by anything, but that's not how the character actually functions.

---

WingsOfGood posted...

Point is

If you go with the: Author is God what he says goes.
Then you have to accept the power of a simple steel sword and bullets. Yet you do not.

So then, you become someone who says "only certain things the author writes and says are true."
Then you have opened a can of worms that lets me say, then that planet is made of foam.

SpiritSephiroth posted... Because when you see someone do something consistently in a series, then in one scene something happens to break that consistency, would you go along with the norm of the consistency or the exception?

---

ChocoboMogALT posted...

The author saying something is very different than the author showing something.

Yea this is the key. Very well put.

I guess the problem I have with the Broly intro is though it is an animation, it is actually not showing anything.
Then when we see Broly actually in action, it contradicts what was told, as he is not pumping out blasts strong enough to destroy the planet they fight on seeing that it still stands until he explodes. And he is supposed to be so mad he is out of his mind, and yet....

ChocoboMogALT posted...

The author saying something is very different than the author showing something.
But, again, it doesn't matter. If feats were comparable, both Earths would be destroyed.

I mean this argument can be used with anything. At least with how @WingsOfGood is describing it. So not seeing Frieza take over half the Galaxy and murdering billions of people shouldn't be taken as fact because we didn't see it?

Not seeing Cell possessing all of the abilities of the Z-fighters and their cells because he didn't use them means that he can't do it?

This is besides the point. The fact of the matter is we were discussing how Akira's memory on Dragonball and his constant inconsistencies were the problem. Not what was stated as fact. Goku suffering a wound from a laser gun, but then being able to tank a universal busting attack is a plain inconsistency.

ChocoboMogALT posted...

Arguing what characters could do is like arguing that CW Flash shouldn't get punched by random shark man. Sure, he could constantly be in Flashtime and never get hit by anything, but that's not how the character actually functions.

That kinda reminds me of Bayonetta. She could use bullet time and her reaction times were insane, but she still got punted by some low level beings.

---

oh my
now mentioning me in my own thread

calm down bro
losing this argument to me is not the end of the world or Toriyama's career

SpiritSephiroth posted...

So not seeing Frieza take over half the Galaxy and murdering billions of people shouldn't be taken as fact because we didn't see it?

That is how it works for Boros apparently as he did that but for some reason DBZ fans do not regard it.

WingsOfGood posted...

I guess the problem I have with the Broly intro is though it is an animation, it is actually not showing anything.
Then when we see Broly actually in action, it contradicts what was told, as he is not pumping out blasts strong enough to destroy the planet they fight on seeing that it still stands until he explodes. And he is supposed to be so mad he is out of his mind, and yet....

Again, it doesn't translate because there would be no story if they actually went through with that. You don't want the characters who are capable of blowing everything up, to actually do just that to the point that there's no more story. Again, this was stated by the creator himself. If you think he wrote himself into a corner with that, then fine, you're probably right. Doesn't change the fact that they are capable of those things.

---

WingsOfGood posted...

calm down bro
losing this argument to me is not the end of the world or Toriyama's career

You see I was taking you seriously until now. Don't know why I bothered. Everytime I get into a convo I always end up speaking to a troll on here. Its my own fault.

---

SpiritSephiroth posted...

Again, it doesn't translate because there would be no story if they actually went through with that. You don't want the characters who are capable of blowing everything up, to actually do just that to the point that there's no more story. Again, this was stated by the creator himself. If you think he wrote himself into a corner with that, then fine, you're probably right. Doesn't change the fact that they are capable of those things.

That is a terrible excuse.
Dude wants nothing but Goku to die. But refuses to use his amazing power because then the story would end?
A writer is supposed to find a reason why he could not use his full power. Maybe Goku finds a way to suppress his power or he cannot use it due to a loved one. None of these come up with Broly.
There is no excuse and basically it shows the beginning of the video was not thought out and not in harmony with the rest and thus is no feat.

SpiritSephiroth posted...

You see I was taking you seriously until now.

Why though? We are arguing over fake comic characters. It should always be lighthearted banter.

WingsOfGood posted...

Why though? We are arguing over fake comic characters. It should always be lighthearted banter.

Dunno, maybe I get too riled up here because of previous discussions I've had where people just turn to trolling for the sake of it. I apologize if you're not.

---

SpiritSephiroth posted...

Dunno, maybe I get too riled up here because of previous discussions I've had where people just turn to trolling for the sake of it. I apologize if you're not.

This topic is simply not something to stress over. Enjoy your DBZ. I liked Super to be honest.

WingsOfGood posted...

This topic is simply not something to stress over. Enjoy your DBZ. I liked Super to be honest.

Thats cool dude, OPM is pretty good too. I think they both do a great service to anime overall.

---

SpiritSephiroth posted...

I mean this argument can be used with anything. At least with how @WingsOfGood is describing it. So not seeing Frieza take over half the Galaxy and murdering billions of people shouldn't be taken as fact because we didn't see it?

Not seeing Cell possessing all of the abilities of the Z-fighters and their cells because he didn't use them means that he can't do it?

This is besides the point. The fact of the matter is we were discussing how Akira's memory on Dragonball and his constant inconsistencies were the problem. Not what was stated as fact. Goku suffering a wound from a laser gun, but then being able to tank a universal busting attack is a plain inconsistency.

That kinda reminds me of Bayonetta. She could use bullet time and her reaction times were insane, but she still got punted by some low level beings.

If there was evidence showing Frieza didn't actually take over half the galaxy, yeah, it'd be suspect. But everything consistently shows that he probably did.

On the otherhand, Broly's powerlevel is pretty inconsistent, so claiming he "blows up galaxies" when he loses to the Fantastic Four with a wooden gun makes me think, "Maybe Broly is exactly as strong as the narrative dictates." Narratively, he blows up a bunch of galaxies off screen to make him look scary and evil. On screen, he's just the next threat. How many times does Goku struggle in Tournament of Power against characters who should be nothing to him? Jiren probably could have cleared the whole tournament in a minute if he tried. But the narrative dictates otherwise.

---