Current Events > Doctor Who: Jodie Whittaker and Chris Chibnall wrapping up and leaving.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Questionmarktarius posted...

Again, doesn't matter. The show discards canon about as regularly as it piles it on.

That wasn't really my point. It was more that this was pretty bad and for most of his run, there wasn't really anything out there or out of place like the other poster implied. It was more a problem of it being boring.

And I doubt they're walking back all that. Best thing we can hope is they have some fun with the cycles and regenerations thing.


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Lol, even Cartmel himself said that wasn't what he intended and that the amount of information that was revealed about the Doctor in this episode was not what he really meant with the plan.

---

bring back elisabeth sladen if you want me to watch again

---

skermac posted...

bring back elisabeth sladen if you want me to watch again

You know she passed away right? @skermac


---

Good. Ugh. They both sucked and Chibnall basically tried to destroy canon. Hopefully a good writer comes along and does away with his fucking train wreck.

---

Lunar_Savage posted...

Good. Ugh. They both sucked and Chibnall basically tried to destroy canon. Hopefully a good writer comes along and does away with his fucking train wreck.

Half of the stuff Chibnall did was hinted at as far back as the 4th Doctor.

---

Lunar_Savage posted...

Good. Ugh. They both sucked and Chibnall basically tried to destroy canon. Hopefully a good writer comes along and does away with his fucking train wreck.

I wouldn't really say "canon" being destroyed is the issue, Doctor Who is always changing what is "canon". This is kind of unavoidable with a 60 year old show that deals with time travel. The big problem I have with it is the Doctor is no longer just some dude who stole a Time Machine and decided eventually he should try to do good in the galaxy after seeing it. Now the Doctor is someone who is inherently special and magically born with powers that were stolen by the Time Lords.

---

Questionmarktarius posted...

Given the slow-ass scheduling of the show, I don't think either one will still be alive in 2050-somthing.

More than anything else, I think this is what made me stop watching the show. I hated the idea they apparently had where every episode would be its own little mini-movie and you'd only get six of them a year. Fucks up the pacing and I never felt like I knew as much or cared as much about Clara as I did the previous companions.
---

Go back to the serial format.

spikethedevil posted...

Did I walk into the digital spy forums?

Considering she was voted the 2nd favourite Doctor I would say the haters are an online vocal minority and iirc season 10 had the worst ratings and season 12s were on the up.

So? Are you saying that we should like whatever is popular? I dont get what point you're trying to make.

I don't like her as Doctor Who, I liked Matt Smith and David Tenant. Idgaf if they were or weren't the most popular, that doesn't make me suddenly like her.
---

Jodie Whittaker was a fantastic Doctor imo. The stories themselves, though, weren't great.

As far as I'm concerned, she carried this entire run and did the best she could with what she had.

I didn't mind the Timeless Child thing, and I hope the plot isn't junked and retconned away. That, or I hope the specials do the plotline justice.

---

Doctor Who: Jodie Whittaker and Chris Chibnall wrapping up and leaving.

Don't get your hopes up.

You don't know who their top replacement candidates are.
They could be worse than the former.
The BBC rarely learns...

---

MrMallard posted...

I didn't mind the Timeless Child thing, and I hope the plot isn't junked and retconned away. That, or I hope the specials do the plotline justice.

I don't mind the core concept of it at all - it ties in very well with a lot of Classic Who hints and continuity.

My big issue with it - which hopefully we'll get more information on in the remainder of Chibnall's era - is that Jo Martin's Doctor refers to herself as The Doctor and has her TARDIS in the classic Police Box shape, which - if she's pre-Hartnell as has been suggested so far - actually really is a big continuity impossibility. That said, even that could be handwaved with the Season 6b theory, and, y'know, the story isn't finished so there's plenty of time yet.

But the idea of the Timeless Child itself is actually one of Chibnall's better moments IMO.

---

I was waiting for a delivery when I made my initial post. I want to get into a little more detail.

*wall of text ensues*

fr though - my biggest gripe is the material.

The main problem for me was how the show was structured with a main cast of four. One way to do it is pairing off the cast members for an A and a B plot - Doctor Who is no stranger to this concept, there were plenty of RTD-era stories where The Doctor would get separated from his companion/s and they would advance the plot on their own, before meeting back up and putting the puzzle together.

This happened sometimes - I think that's one reason why I'm one of the rare Tsuranga Conundrum defenders. It wasn't perfect, but it reminded me of RTD-era Who with the monster of the week format and with the group splitting up. But most episodes have the gang act as an ensemble for most of the time, and in that ensemble, characters would essentially be sacrificed for the sake of another character's prominence. Where one character would have a lot to do, another character would have absolutely fucking nothing.

Originally, it was Yaz who got the short end of the stick. In the first five episodes, she barely had anything to do. In Arachnids in the UK, her mother appeared as a plot-critical character - so as her family are introduced, you think Yaz is gonna get a bit of a spotlight here, right?

I swear to god, Yaz's mum has more focus and lines than Yaz does. As a one-time plot-critical character and a recurring minor role going forward, she overshadowed a member of the main cast - her own daughter, and by extension her connection into this vast sci-fi world she's become embroiled in. And frankly, it sucked.

But then again, Yaz got the best episode of series 11: Demons of the Punjab. I will champion that episode until I die - it was a point where I honestly felt it was on par with a RTD-era episode, it was a historical episode that covered a piece of history I had no idea about which was endlessly fascinating, and it had the most effective ending out of the entire season. Compare the money shot in Rosa, and the money shot in Demons of the Punjab. I don't mean to downplay the historical event of Rosa Parks's defiance itself, but Doctor Who kinda botched it - and Demons of the Punjab pulled off a far more effective gut-punch with characters we didn't know, without a significant influence on history.

What made Yaz weak in series 11 was that she didn't have an arc to speak of. She had fragments of characterisation that bloomed later, but it was piecemeal. Her character, while underutilized, developed in bits and pieces over the season. Ryan and Graham had a season-spanning arc about family and acceptance, and that kept them busy the entire time - Yaz got comparatively less development.

But Ryan and Graham's plot is resolved by the end of series 11. And so, going into series 12, neither of them have that much to do. Ryan tries to pick up chicks, Graham is always quick with a one-liner.

And Yaz gets to step up and develop as a character during that time. But it comes at the cost of Ryan and Graham's characterisation. Ryan suffers especially - he was already a bit stiff, but his time on the show comes down to overcoming his dyspraxia to throw a bomb at some Cybermen, and it's with very little fanfare.

And that brings me to another point - while the human cast do interact together, they don't have much interpersonal connection. Like, Ryan is Yaz's friend and his main connection is to Graham. Graham is the Doctor's friend and his main connection is to Ryan. Yaz is Ryan's friend and her main connection to the Doctor. And the Doctor is the glue who holds the whole group together - but I feel like she spends most of her time with Yaz and Graham.

In that dynamic, one character is always missing. And that affects how the entire team feels.

Almost no-one knew how to write four main characters in a balanced way. Like sure, certain characters get featured in certain episodes, but it just didn't feel balanced in the sort of way that any other show would balance a cast like that.

And also - I say that Yaz and Ryan are friends, because you see in episodes like Rosa that they have bonding moments. Like in that one, they're bonding over being PoC in a heavily racist society. And I felt chemistry between them. They felt like friends. And they interact in the future, sure, but it's never really to the same standard set in that episode.

I feel like Yaz and Ryan could be great confidants. They have a past - they went to school together - and in episodes like Rosa they're shown confiding in each other. The last time I remember them interacting in a significant was was Orphan 53 or whatever, and that episode was a flaming turd.

And it's to the point where when Ryan leaves the TARDIS, she barely bats an eye - but when Graham leaves, she stops in her tracks and wells up with emotion.

That's not to say they never interacted or got along - but it didn't feel like the appropriate order. That's how it had to happen structurally, but it was just so jarring to see it transpire in that way.

And look - the characters had their strengths and weaknesses, and I would argue that none of them had the depth that prior companions have had. Graham was close though - when Grace comes up in Orphan 53, the look he gives is fucking award-worthy. He sells the fuck out of that scene.

But it's those characters who held the show together. They're the main draw of the show. And while I wouldn't dismiss any of them outright, Jodie Whittaker was the glue holding this show together.

I'm just disappointed that the material wasn't up to snuff, because I LOVE her Doctor! I love that she's a tinkerer, I love this spirit of discovery and love of education she has as well as this mechanic/engineer tendency. And when her run on the show ends, she's going to be who I miss the most.

I put the blame squarely on the writing and the showrunning. And even with Chibnall's series 11 foible of writing most of the season himself and having the whole thing be a middling mess, he did pen good episodes. I particularly like Revolution of the Daleks. One thing he could do was poke fun at himself, as seen as when his Daleks are blasted apart by the Time War Daleks. Remember when Moffat made those technicolor bastards and never used them again? Chibnall had the cheek to make his own decent new design and then have the Time War Daleks swoop in and go "you are unworthy" before blowing them to kingdom come.

But it comes down to the material and the showrunning. And neither have been up to snuff.

That is immensely disappointing, as someone who has adored Jodie Whittaker's Doctor.

---

Slayer_22 posted...

So? Are you saying that we should like whatever is popular? I dont get what point you're trying to make.

I don't like her as Doctor Who*, I liked Matt Smith and David Tenant. Idgaf if they were or weren't the most popular, that doesn't make me suddenly like her.

The Doctor*

---

spikethedevil posted...

The Doctor*

Didn't answer my question.

So let me reiterate: what was your point?
---

Tom Clark posted...

I don't mind the core concept of it at all - it ties in very well with a lot of Classic Who hints and continuity.

My big issue with it - which hopefully we'll get more information on in the remainder of Chibnall's era - is that Jo Martin's Doctor refers to herself as The Doctor and has her TARDIS in the classic Police Box shape, which - if she's pre-Hartnell as has been suggested so far - actually really is a big continuity impossibility. That said, even that could be handwaved with the Season 6b theory, and, y'know, the story isn't finished so there's plenty of time yet.

But the idea of the Timeless Child itself is actually one of Chibnall's better moments IMO.

There has been hints Hartnell wasnt the first since the 4th Doctor. @Tom_Clark

---

spikethedevil posted...

There has been hints Hartnell wasnt the first since the 4th Doctor. @Tom_Clark

Yeah, I know that.

But the TARDIS wasn't stuck as a police box before An Unearthly Child. And it's been made clear that Hartnell was the one who chose to go by the name "The Doctor" - there was even a several season story arc about that.

So while there being more incarnations before Hartnell doesn't contradict anything (and actually makes some of Classic Who make more sense than it did previously - I'm absolutely all in favour of that), one of those incarnations going by the name The Doctor and travelling in a TARDIS that is stuck as a Police Box is definitely against everything we've seen so far.

But, like I said, the story isn't over yet. So I'll see where it goes before crying foul.

---