Current Events > Why do people act like incels aren't right about looks?

(+) Yeah! (+)

As I've gotten older, I realize that looks really don't fucking matter.

There's certainly shallow women who are the exception, but women are attracted to confidence and wit more than anything else.

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nfearurspecimn posted...

idk, part of me thinks those people could, they just don't want to feel like they're jumping through hoops to get companionship

While there is sentiment like that as well, that it's not worth excessive effort and that the odds of failure far outweigh the odds of success, there are also people who genuinely just don't know what to say in an intimate context. They'd need to be led through the process, but nobody bothers to do that for unattactive people generally.
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yeah maybe so

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Graycap posted...

While there is sentiment like that as well, that it's not worth excessive effort and that the odds of failure far outweigh the odds of success, there are also people who genuinely just don't know what to say in an intimate context. They'd need to be led through the process, but nobody bothers to do that for unattactive people generally.

You are correct that the odds of failure do far outweigh the odds of success. And you are correct that being attractive helps (but it's not everything).

However, let's say the odds are only like 5% each time you try. I could put it lower at 1% but if the guys here would go for more average women I think it could be 5%. Anyway, yeah 5% sucks in terms of the odds. However, people don't only have one chance; they have as many as they are willing to take. If people would keep trying and not let a setback or 2 stop them, they would get there. (I mean I get those goddamn 5%, or even 3%, Monster Hunter drops eventually). Yeah, you might embarrass the fuck out of yourself along the way, but if this helps you get what you want out of life, isn't that worth it?

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TC, you sound like you're fairly far down the path of incel ideology and as one human being to another, I'd advise you to go down a different path.

The incel path will not help you get what you want or improve your life. It only offers more misery and isolation. Take the exit ramp while you still can before you waste years of your life going further from what you want.

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There isn't a human being alive that is in good shape and physically unattractive

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Graycap posted...

What about virgins who don't hate women? Why don't they get laid?

Don't dismiss the social problems shyness, passivity, awkwardness, and developmental issues can cause.

Incels are a specific subset of virgins

metallica846 posted...

Elliot Rodger wasn't ugly and had money.

Still ended up a kissless virgin.

I read some of his manifesto. He had his growth spurts late and was always shorter than his peers and was consequently bullied for it. Those years of bullying will have a degradation on your self-esteem and cause a deficit in social opportunities so I can see how he ended up massively overcompensating with his narcissism.

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bsp77 posted...

However, let's say the odds are only like 5% each time you try. I could put it lower at 1% but if the guys here would go for more average women I think it could be 5%. Anyway, yeah 5% sucks in terms of the odds. However, people don't only have one chance; they have as many as they are willing to take. If people would keep trying and not let a setback or 2 stop them, they would get there. (I mean I get those goddamn 5%, or even 3%, Monster Hunter drops eventually). Yeah, you might embarrass the fuck out of yourself along the way, but if this helps you get what you want out of life, isn't that worth it?

I'm refering to the most socially defunct people possible. People who cannot form a "shot" at all. There are no odds and standards don't matter in that scenario. The subject here is not normal people.

bsp77 posted...

Yeah, you might embarrass the fuck out of yourself along the way, but if this helps you get what you want out of life, isn't that worth it?

legendary_zell posted...

TC, you sound like you're fairly far down the path of incel ideology and as one human being to another, I'd advise you to go down a different path.

The incel path will not help you get what you want or improve your life. It only offers more misery and isolation. Take the exit ramp while you still can before you waste years of your life going further from what you want.

Incels want to be attractive enough to either rarely get turned down or be pursued. No amount of personal action can bring that about. You can't buy a product that isn't available.
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Graycap posted...

I'm refering to the most socially defunct people possible. People who cannot form a "shot" at all. There are no odds and standards don't matter in that scenario. The subject here is not normal people.

Incels want to be attractive enough to either rarely get turned down or be pursued. No amount of personal action can bring that about. You can't buy a product that isn't available.

You are wrong and you are poisoning others by making them feel it is helpless when it isn't. No one needs an Ambassador to Inceldom.

I actually try to help people. I don't know what your goal is.

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bsp77 posted...

You are wrong and you are poisoning others by making them feel it is helpless when it isn't.

To call me wrong is to deny that signficiant mental debilitations exist.

bsp77 posted...

No one needs an Ambassador to Inceldom.

I actually try to help people. I don't know what your goal is.

I'm tired of people telling the developmentally stunted to do the impossible is all. There are people who can make adapatations in life with a helping hand and there are people who have a limited range of potentials. It's important to recognize the difference and be considerate of those who lack options.

Some people are not made for an active role in dating. They either need to be walked through the process by someone who's attracted to them or nothing will happen. Look at the many women who don't approach men, and would just remain alone if not pursued. Literally all I'm saying here is that some guys are the same.
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Graycap posted...

To call me wrong is to deny that signficiant mental debilitations exist.

I'm tired of people telling the developmentally stunted to do the impossible is all. There are people who can make adapatations in life with a helping hand and there are people who have a limited range of potentials. It's important to recognize the difference and be considerate of those who lack options.

Some people are not made for an active role in dating. They either need to be walked through the process by someone who's attracted to them or nothing will happen. Look at the many women who don't approach men, and would just remain alone if not pursued. Literally all I'm saying here is that some guys are the same.

Okay, there are a very small percentage where what you say may be true. But that is even a small percentage of adult virgins (I really don't want to say incel). I feel that you are making them feel even more helpless than they are already are. I think they need examples of adult virgins who then turned their lives around through motivation and self improvement. I can name a couple of real life friends of mine who have done that. You are harming your own community with your negativity.

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Graycap posted...

Well there you go, there's a scenario where it's possible. >_>

Yeah, and those are typically people with severe enough problems that tend to take priority over their inability to approach women.

I'll put it this way; low functioning people on the spectrum generally aren't posting on the internet

What you're trying to make it seem like is that there are higher functioning people that are stuck being permanently shy and that just doesn't happen.
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You're just taking excuses.

People who are severely mentally awkward, people who are severely shy, they can still figure out a way to talk to people.

Like I can see if someone has a legitimate mental deficiency, but not knowing how to talk to women doesn't quality.

You're basically suggesting that a fat man should find it 'impossible' to learn how to cook healthy meals, comparing them to someone who can't move their arms or legs who legitimately couldn't.

So unless you're talking about severe mental Illness TC, you're just making excuses for people who are too lazy to put in the effort.

Yes it's a lot harder to find dates if you're ugly and don't know what you're doing, but it's not this impossible task. Nor would being handsome magically solve all their problems.

I don't feel pity for anyone sitting there and waiting for their prince(ss) to magically appear and rescue them. Not if their only excuse is being awkward and unattractive.

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yea looks are essential for 1st contact and fucking, their point? that life is unfair? oh no

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Umbreon posted...

You're basically suggesting that a fat man should find it 'impossible' to learn how to cook healthy meals, comparing them to someone who can't move their arms or legs who legitimately couldn't.

When you put it that way, do keep in mind that 2/3rds of the American population are overweight or obese. I recognize the value of personal responsibility, but at some point, you have to acknowledge there are cultural obstacles making things considerably more difficult than they were 20+ years ago and effectively telling someone to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps is poor advice.

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scamatoru posted...

yea looks are essential for 1st contact and fucking, their point? that life is unfair? oh no

Well yeah, that's all. We'd come a long way if we could just accept that some people end up with less through no fault of their own. Nothing we can do about it, but just being considerate of people who are struggling is enough.

bsp77 posted...

You are harming your own community with your negativity.

I don't feel that those who have prospects of future success and those who don't should really be considered the same community. One group should be focused on self-improvement, tips, progress reports, etc. while the other should be focused on consolation and lamentation and alternative living. That way each set of people gets all the help that's appropriate.

Umbreon posted...

You're basically suggesting that a fat man should find it 'impossible' to learn how to cook healthy meals, comparing them to someone who can't move their arms or legs who legitimately couldn't.

Cooking has recipes. There's consistent logic to it. And failing all else the dude could just eat less. Invalid comparison to socialization, which is incredibly vague and subjective.

One_Day_Remains posted...

Yeah, and those are typically people with severe enough problems that tend to take priority over their inability to approach women.

I'll put it this way; low functioning people on the spectrum generally aren't posting on the internet

What you're trying to make it seem like is that there are higher functioning people that are stuck being permanently shy and that just doesn't happen.

That's an odd stance to take. You're acting as if there's no borderline, when there's no logical reason there wouldn't be one.
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Graycap posted...

In some guys' cases there's nothing more they can do. If you're permanently shy and awkward and need to be approached to get anywhere, not being attractive is a death sentence.

Firstly, a death sentence? Not getting laid is not comparable to death.

Secondly, nobody needs to be approached. You may want to be approached. You may find it easier or more appealing. But you know what? Hardly any men get approached and most of them just learn to deal with it by putting themselves out there and exposing themselves to rejection. It's part of life. The thing holding most of these people back is unrealistic expectations.

Glob posted...

Firstly, a death sentence? Not getting laid is not comparable to death.

It's a figure of speech. But living an entire life unloved, never starting a family, and growing increasingly unable to relate with your peers as you age isn't particularly enjoyable for everyone.

Glob posted...

Secondly, nobody needs to be approached. You may want to be approached. You may find it easier or more appealing. But you know what? Hardly any men get approached and most of them just learn to deal with it by putting themselves out there and exposing themselves to rejection. It's part of life. The thing holding most of these people back is unrealistic expectations.

Okay but I'm talking about the subset of people who functionally cannot advance intimacy at all. Nothing comes to mind for these people. It's a social script they don't have. If/when they try it always goes bad. Some get lucky and have others lead the way, but some do not.
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One_Day_Remains posted...

unless you have real severe social anxiety or you're lower functioning on the spectrum.

What makes you think people like this don't make up a large portion of the group? Those are real conditions that people have, so I don't think it's so unlikely that a portion of the population that is struggling socially might just have social disorders.

I know I do. I'm not on the spectrum, but I do have social phobia disorder, depression, and some trauma that makes it super difficult to interact with others irl. It's a cycle, each of those conditions feeds the other and I end up in mental spiral. Usually compounded by seeing others seemingly find the things in life that I'm packing without trying.

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Sad_Face posted...

When you put it that way, do keep in mind that 2/3rds of the American population are overweight or obese.

A disadvantage to be sure, but obese people are in relationships as well. I never claimed things were easy. They sure as fuck aren't for my awkward ass, but you need to keep trying.

Giving up, you have a 0% chance. Even if you were handsome. It's not as easy as bootstraps, but you need to be trying.

Graycap posted...

Cooking has recipes. There's consistent logic to it. And failing all else the dude could just eat less. Invalid comparison to socialization, which is incredibly vague and subjective.

First off "just eat less" doesn't do much good if you exclusively eat crap. More to the point though, people still fuck up despite the recipe. You have people brag about not being able to cook spaghetti. Cooking still takes some effort. You don't learn it by declaring yourself 'hopeless' and hope someone else cooks for you the rest of your days.

(Or I guess, just eat sandwiches all the time)

It's okay to need help. Help should be available to all who need it. If you aren't going to even try though, what do you expect to happen?

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Graycap posted...

It's a figure of speech. But living an entire life unloved, never starting a family, and growing increasingly unable to relate with your peers as you age isn't particularly enjoyable for everyone.

Okay but I'm talking about the subset of people who functionally cannot advance intimacy at all. Nothing comes to mind for these people. It's a social script they don't have. If/when they try it always goes bad. Some get lucky and have others lead the way, but some do not.

It's not an appropriate figure of speech when you're talking about a subset of society where some of them actually believe it and think it justifies violence.

Also, claiming that they live a life without love? Romantic love is only one aspect. They can't relate to their peers? That's the exact problem. If they could relate to people a bit better they wouldn't be in this position. It's not a result of the problem. It is the problem.

You're talking about incels in the topic title and then trying to project for them onto a much smaller group. The whole thing is massively disingenuous and I don't believe for a moment that you don't know exactly what you're doing.

Glob posted...

They can't relate to their peers? That's the exact problem.

YES thank you

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Glob posted...

It's not an appropriate figure of speech when you're talking about a subset of society where some of them actually believe it and think it justifies violence.

Decent point but I don't think any of those types post here.

Glob posted...

Also, claiming that they live a life without love? Romantic love is only one aspect. They can't relate to their peers? That's the exact problem. If they could relate to people a bit better they wouldn't be in this position. It's not a result of the problem. It is the problem.

I'm saying the ability to relate wanes due to falling behind in life experience. Plenty of people with social lives and friends cannot achieve intimacy, so no an inability to relate to people is not the root cause in every case.

Glob posted...

You're talking about incels in the topic title and then trying to project for them onto a much smaller group.

No. My opinion is that the group of dysfunctional people is larger than incels, not smaller, but includes all incels. If they weren't dysfunctional in this regard they wouldn't end up calling themselves incels to begin with. I reject the notion that these people would succeed if they just stopped being hateful and bitter; no, they still have other fundamental social problems that led to the scenarios causing them to become hateful and bitter.

Glob posted...

The whole thing is massively disingenuous and I don't believe for a moment that you don't know exactly what you're doing.

I don't believe for a moment that you understood the topic at all, since the conclusion you based the above schlop on is completely inaccurate with regards to my beliefs on this issue (I don't think the people I'm talking about are a small group of incels, I think it's all of them).
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KogaSteelfang posted...

What makes you think people like this don't make up a large portion of the group? Those are real conditions that people have, so I don't think it's so unlikely that a portion of the population that is struggling socially might just have social disorders.

I know I do. I'm not on the spectrum, but I do have social phobia disorder, depression, and some trauma that makes it super difficult to interact with others irl. It's a cycle, each of those conditions feeds the other and I end up in mental spiral. Usually compounded by seeing others seemingly find the things in life that I'm packing without trying.

My general point is shyness and socially awkwardness can be improved on, and if you're combating things like that, you have bigger problems to work on first before your inability to approach women
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TC what is your situation? You're talking about 'these people' but what about your personal experience?

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Graycap posted...

Well yeah, that's all. We'd come a long way if we could just accept that some people end up with less through no fault of their own. Nothing we can do about it, but just being considerate of people who are struggling is enough.

you misunderstood bro, idgaf about their need for 'consideration' in fact idgaf about them
theres all these different groups of people nowadays constantly moaning for 'consideration' for life being unfair like its anyone else's problem or fault. fuck that social clingy shit get real

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scamatoru posted...

you misunderstood bro, idgaf about their need for 'consideration' in fact idgaf about them
theres all these different groups of people nowadays constantly moaning for 'consideration' for life being unfair like its anyone else's problem or fault. fuck that social clingy shit get real

Not caring and saying nothing is also respectful. Nobody's owed sympathy. I'm just saying that basic decency is for someone to not go out of their way to pester people who are already having a bad time, either. It's not a person's fault how the world treats someone else, but it's entirely their fault how they personally treat someone else. There's no problem unless you're part of the problem.
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Solar_Crimson posted...

Because incels use attractiveness as a shield for their own shitty personalities and entitlement to explain why they can't get laid.

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These topics are sad.

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looks are part of attraction, you can probably be a much more attractive version of yourself that you are now, I'm guessing you're insecure about your looks

Lost_All_Senses posted...

Their problem is they also have garbage personalities. They wouldn't do well even with looks.

I know of a narcissitic sociopath declared by a psychiatrist who did well.
But I guess he didn't have a garbage personality?

The real of it is simply incels are too anxious around women. Some might even have personalities women want in a guy but anti-incel people would be too afraid admitting this would make them feel validated and correct in their hate.

Yeah the "terrible personality" thing falls apart when you look at all the awful people in relationships regardless.

It's a skills problem, not a moral problem.
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WingsOfGood posted...

I know of a narcissitic sociopath declared by a psychiatrist who did well.
But I guess he didn't have a garbage personality?

The real of it is simply incels are too anxious around women. Some might even have personalities women want in a guy but anti-incel people would be too afraid admitting this would make them feel validated and correct in their hate.

Narcissistic sociopaths often have really high levels of charisma

Anyway, personality, which certainly incudes charisma and charm, is a lot more important than looks. I would even say that women who many would deem as average suddenly become super hot when you interact with them based on their personality and mannerisms. And my understanding is that women can be impacted by this even more than me/men.

Also, what does anti-incel mean?

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Graycap posted...

Yeah the "terrible personality" thing falls apart when you look at all the awful people in relationships regardless.

It's a skills problem, not a moral problem.

Do you know how those awful people ended up in relationships?

Chances are they weren't displaying their horrible traits as they were getting their foot in the door. Those traits come out over time

Awful people also tend to be... confident. And don't sit on message boards complaining about how girls aren't approaching them. They're unfiltered, not concerned about how they might come across and take any chances they get.
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Graycap posted...

Yeah the "terrible personality" thing falls apart when you look at all the awful people in relationships regardless.

It's a skills problem, not a moral problem.

So, thing is, it is fun to shit on incels and if they are not demonized, you might feel bad doing that.
So of course the dude in prison who gets girls mailing him is someone actually a guy with a great personality /s.

And if it is a skills thing, then couldn't guys with said skills help their buddies stop being incels?

Graycap posted...

Yeah the "terrible personality" thing falls apart when you look at all the awful people in relationships regardless.

It's a skills problem, not a moral problem.

Personality doesn't mean morals, although that can be part of it. Same as skills.

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Graycap posted...

Yes I would. Don't assume everyone shares your standards. But this isn't about any of us individually.

Everyone thinks differently.
While you (in general not directed at you) might think someone is attractive, I might not find them attractive.

bsp77 posted...

Personality doesn't mean morals, although that can be part of it. Same as skills.

The person i refer to is in jail and did horrible things to their wife and kids.
Would you still argue they have a good personality knowing this just because charism and confidence?

WingsOfGood posted...

The person i refer to is in jail and did horrible things to their wife and kids.
Would you still argue they have a good personality knowing this just because charism and confidence?

Well, no I wouldn't. Personality is a mix of a lot of things. I only said that sociopaths can be quite charismatic.

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bsp77 posted...

Well, no I wouldn't. Personality is a mix of a lot of things. I only said that sociopaths can be quite charismatic.

So the point still stands. People with literally terrible personalities can be very good with women.

hey Graycap you've been posting for months about these kind of topics, what have you done so far to at least attempt to get out of your unfortunate predicament, have you started to hit the gym at least?

WingsOfGood posted...

So the point still stands. People with literally terrible personalities can be very good with women.

Well, of course. Lots of people are quite good with women. There is no simple equation.

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WingsOfGood posted...

So the point still stands. People with literally terrible personalities can be very good with women.

yes that is indeed a possibility

ROOTFayth posted...

hey Graycap you've been posting for months about these kind of topics, what have you done so far to at least attempt to get out of your unfortunate predicament, have you started to hit the gym at least?

Here's the thing, he doesn't do anything. This dude has trying to be a spokesperson on the dating scene based on random anecdotes he reads on the internet but he doesn't talk to women or at least have female friends of his own. He's been doing this shit for years on many different accounts.
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bsp77 posted...

Also, what does anti-incel mean?

People who call people incels too often (even dudes with wife and kids).

People who berate a dude trying to figure out how to better himself cause he is bad with women and call him an incel.

People who cannot admit the real reasons they have trouble such as saying they have terrible personalites.

One_Day_Remains posted...

Awful people also tend to be... confident. And don't sit on message boards complaining about how girls aren't approaching them. They're unfiltered, not concerned about how they might come across and take any chances they get.

Yes, and that coincides with my point that it's a skills problem.

Caring about how you come across is actually a moral trait.

WingsOfGood posted...

So, thing is, it is fun to shit on incels and if they are not demonized, you might feel bad doing that.
So of course the dude in prison who gets girls mailing him is someone actually a guy with a great personality /s.

People just assume the "nice guys finish last" thing is always false because it's counterintuitive. But if they did actual research they'd find studies confirming the desirability of sociopaths, bullies, and criminals.

Some people just put their narratives over facts though.

WingsOfGood posted...

And if it is a skills thing, then couldn't guys with said skills help their buddies stop being incels?

I think each person may have different potential to learn certain skills. Because some guys do keep trying and nothing really materializes. It's rough.
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Graycap posted...

I think each person may have different potential to learn certain skills. Because some guys do keep trying and nothing really materializes. It's rough.

So what have you tried tc?

Having a gf isnt about getting laid, neither is going on a date

Graycap posted...

Caring about how you come across is actually a moral trait.

it's a skill that you develop actually