Current Events > Woman goes on a transphobic tirade after encountering a trans person in the spa

(+) Yeah! (+)

MutantJohn posted...

People are way too scared of nudity.

Spas are a normal place to be nude. Assuming the transwoman in question was minding their own business and keeping to themselves, I see no issue

a person with a penis minding their own business and keeping to themselves still cannot be naked around a woman.


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Bass_X0 posted...

a person with a penis minding their own business and keeping to themselves still cannot be naked around a woman.

I think it's a little weird how much we've normalized the idea that a penis is threatening.

We've normalized rape culture so much, just the sight of a penis is traumatizing

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Bass_X0 posted...

a person with a penis minding their own business and keeping to themselves still cannot be naked around a woman.

This is just you saying that trans women aren't women, but with extra steps.

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gunplagirl posted...

This is just you saying that trans women aren't women, but with extra steps.

penises are not vaginas and do not belong in a vagina only place.

in this case, it most definitely is what is in your pants and nothing at all to do with what is in your head.

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Bass_X0 posted...

penises are not vaginas and do not belong in a vagina only place.

It's a space for women.

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Opisseus posted...

It's a space for women.

with vaginas.

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Bass_X0 posted...

with vaginas.

That's you adding a stipulation that would indicate you are transphobic, and do not consider the woman a woman

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MutantJohn posted...

I think it's a little weird how much we've normalized the idea that a penis is threatening.

We've normalized rape culture so much, just the sight of a penis is traumatizing

What about a woman who had a negative experience with a penis and wants to use a spa without seeing a penis? Transwomen are women but we can't just discount the experiences and expectations of 99% of women, trans or not, who go into a female only area.

If it was explicitly stated that transwomen, pre or post-op, are accepted at said spa and that both genitals were to be potentially expected to be on display in the female-only area then it'd be one thing. However if that isn't made explicitly clear then why should women be forced to see something in a situation they don't want to see?

The US reminds me of Zardoz:

"The gun is good. The penis is evil."

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The problem here, and has always been the problem, is for potential for abuse. I'm sure there are plenty of creepers/pedos out there that would pretend to be trans just to get naked and be around the women/kids.

MachineJaipur posted...

What about a woman who had a negative experience with a penis and wants to use a spa without seeing a penis? Transwomen are women but we can't just discount the experiences and expectations of 99% of women, trans or not, who go into a female only area.

If it was explicitly stated that transwomen, pre or post-op, are accepted at said spa and that both genitals were to be potentially expected to be on display in the female-only area then it'd be one thing. However if that isn't made explicitly clear then why should women be forced to see something in a situation they don't want to see?

You constantly bounce back and forth between "I support trans women and wish we were in a place where this wasn't an issue" and "What if they don't want to see a penis, huh!?"

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Crescente posted...

The problem here, and has always been the problem, is for potential for abuse. I'm sure there are plenty of creepers/pedos out there that would pretend to be trans just to get naked and be around the women/kids.

Cis people already do that, stop trying to demonize trans people by associating with predators.

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codey posted...

Cis people already do that, stop trying to demonize trans people by associating with predators.

Tell that to the women in the video. I'm sure they'll understand.

Can we change the general terms on the door from men women to penises vaginas because that would really solve the whole thing
Dicks to the left vaginas to the right

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I wanna live in a world where male nudity isn't traumatizing to women

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MutantJohn posted...

I wanna live in a world where male nudity isn't traumatizing to women

Male nudity is traumatizing to me and I'm no woman

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The Trent posted...

Male nudity is traumatizing to me and I'm no woman

I'll pray for you, The Trent

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The Trent posted...

Can we change the general terms on the door from men women to penises vaginas because that would really solve the whole thing
Dicks to the left vaginas to the right

why are all the dicks on the left hahahagah, got em

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MutantJohn posted...

I'll pray for you, The Trent

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The Trent posted...

Can we change the general terms on the door from men women to penises vaginas because that would really solve the whole thing
Dicks to the left vaginas to the right

No

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QueenCarly posted...

No

Well if the queen don't like it...

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shockthemonkey posted...

Yes, which is why you do something about predators regardless of whether theyre trans or cis, rather than acting as if a person is a predator because theyre trans.

um, what? Say that in English please.

codey posted...

You constantly bounce back and forth between "I support trans women and wish we were in a place where this wasn't an issue" and "What if they don't want to see a penis, huh!?"

Because what I want in the world and what is reality are two different things.

Until society changes and is ready to accept that penises are ok in, and maybe even expected, female areas then you have to consider the societal expectation of no penises in the female area, even if that may not be ideal or even right in the realm of trans considerations.

Perhaps unfortunately, but most women aren't going to just flip a switch in their brain and go "I'm okay with seeing penis in a female-only area". Especially if they've ever been traumatized by a penis.

As I said, unless it is made explicitly clear to expect to maybe see penis in an area where, in basically all of modern history, it had been no-penis the entire time before, then I'm going to err on the side of caution and say that the societal expectation takes precedence.

shockthemonkey posted...

If you dont want to see naked people then avoid areas where people are naked. By knowingly and consensually entering an area where women could be naked, you are consenting to possibly seeing womens genitalia. If a person wishes to avoid that possibility, they can avoid the area where other women may be nude. I dont understand why this is such a hard concept for some people to understand.

Because the idea of a penis being a woman's genitals is, while not new in the grand scheme of history, new to the common societal expectation of boys have penis, girls have vaginas.

That SHOULD change, but it will take time to do so.

I can guarantee you that 99% of women who visit a spa never once have the thought of "I might see a woman's penis today"

MachineJaipur posted...

Because the idea of a penis being a woman's genitals is, while not new in the grand scheme of history, new to the common societal expectation of boys have penis, girls have vaginas.

That SHOULD change, but it will take time to do so.

I can guarantee you that 99% of women who visit a spa never once have the thought of "I might see a woman's penis today"

I just don't see why it would bother someone, unless they don't recognize the validity of trans women

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Opisseus posted...

I just don't see why it would bother someone, unless they don't recognize the validity of trans women

It isn't even necessarily the fact that a woman has a penis that might bother them. It's just something that violates the societal expectation. It's different and strange to the uninitiated or uninformed.

And people usually don't react the best to different and strange.

Also, unfortunately not everybody recognizes the validity of transwomen and situations like this will only harm the chances of more people accepting their validity.

MachineJaipur posted...

Because what I want in the world and what is reality are two different things.

Until society changes and is ready to accept that black people are ok in, and maybe even expected, white areas then you have to consider the societal expectation of no black people in the white area, even if that may not be ideal or even right in the realm of black considerations.

Perhaps unfortunately, but most whites aren't going to just flip a switch in their brain and go "I'm okay with seeing black people in a white-only area". Especially if they've ever been traumatized by a black person.

As I said, unless it is made explicitly clear to expect to maybe see black people in an area where, in basically all of modern history, it had been no-blqck people the entire time before, then I'm going to err on the side of caution and say that the societal expectation takes precedence

See how fucked what you're saying sounds?

We don't cater to the irrationally hateful, our duty is to aid those that are being persecutes like this trans woman was.

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shockthemonkey posted...

do something about predators rather than acting as if a person is a predator because theyre trans.

How do you do something about predators though? Having that divide between female and male areas already helps, but when you bring in something that defies the norms, there's always potential for abuse. I'm not going to fucking lie, as a guy, I'd be more than happy to have unisex everything...>.>

So yes...I uh agree with you. We certainly should allow this. We should just get rid of female and male areas.

shockthemonkey posted...

You keep putting the onus on oppressed people to cater to the feelings of the majority rather than accepting that the best way for everything to move forward is to accept trans women as women which includes allowing them into womens spaces.

If someone does not want to see another person naked then the onus is on them to avoid areas where others will be naked. By entering into an area where there will be naked women, a person is consenting to seeing the genitals attached to women, regardless of whether that person is trans or cis.

I just feel that if you want to be accepted into a society then you have to play by the majority rule until such a time the rules change. You can fight it where you can and should.

You're continuously missing the part where someone expected only vulvas and were okay with that and consented to it. They did not knowingly consent to seeing penis, in their expectations. Which led to the transphobic ladies freakout.

Which is why I said until society at large accepts that there may be penis in the ladies area, that this will be an issue. I can be okay all I want, it doesn't change the fact that society will balk at it and nefarious anti-trans forces will use situations like this as reasons and opportunities to restrict the rights of trans peoples.

If you can't consider what your enemy will do with your actions then you'll be murdered in your sleep yesterday.

shockthemonkey posted...

Its explicitly clear that women belong in womens spaces. if youre looking for something to explicitly say that trans women also belong, youre separating trans women from the broad category of women. If you view trans women as women then you dont need an explicit warning that trans women are in womens spaces.

Unfortunately we as a society are not at a point where we are widely ready to accept transwomen in women's spaces. If you want society to get to that point you'd do best to start with signs acknowledging the possibility, to put the idea in societies mind and then eventually get rid of the signs once it is widely accepted that it is a thing and will happen.

If you don't want to do the hard work of integrating into the society you want to be a part of and just want to buck and rant and rave about how persecuted you are then don't be surprised when decades have past and society just views trans people as a nuisance instead of what they should be viewed as, as people

Machine, I dont think you're making a good point here...

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MutantJohn posted...

Machine, I dont think you're making a good point here...

I'm just trying to think broader about this situation.

I'm not saying my point is the most immediately ideal but I just would hate to see the trans community get ensared into nasty fights over something like this, where it is very easy to lose said fight if for no other reason than "OH WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN" and would then be used to demonize and villainize trans people

I'd just rather advocate safer avenues of changing societal opinions than this

And if you're wondering why I'm so worried about societal opinions, because a decent chunk of the modern world idolizes democracy and rule of the majority so being aware of societal opinions and changing them appropriately is pretty important

MachineJaipur posted...

And if you're wondering why I'm so worried about societal opinions, because a decent chunk of the modern world idolizes democracy and rule of the majority so being aware of societal opinions and changing them appropriately is pretty important

I just don't see why anyone's even still reading your posts

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The only real solution to this is for the congress to pass a law that everyone in the US must be naked at all times.

One big giant nudist colony.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Youre really good at blaming trans people for being victims of transphobia.

Guess what society is going to do in this case.

They're not going to blame the transphobic lady for being a transphobe. They're going to blame the transwoman. Guess who dictates who is and isn't accepted in society? Society. If you don't want transpeople to be accepted by the majority, then by all means feel that way. I want a society that accepts transpeople. Good progress is being made. Muddying the name of transpeople everywhere with easily divisive situations like this only serves to harm the progress being made.

The Sock posted...

The only real solution to this is for the congress to pass a law that everyone in the US must be naked at all times.

One big giant nudist colony.

You want to be the fattest, nakedest country in the world...why

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shockthemonkey posted...

did you literally just admit to being a predator? God damn dude

naaaah bro. I just...think we should have equality...hahaha...

Crescente posted...

naaaah bro. I just...think we should have equality...hahaha...

That's a yikes from me dawg

Now you get my point lmao. This is why we have gendered areas. Shock didn't understand why.

No penises allowed. If you have bio male privates. Dont get naked.

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Crescente posted...

Now you get my point lmao. This is why we have gendered areas. Shock didn't understand why.

Once again, there are already predators in areas with children. We don't outlaw teachers because a few of them decide to fuck children, why would we discriminate against all trans people because there's a myth that all of them are predators that just want to get into women's bathrooms so they can assault them?

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shockthemonkey posted...

You wanting to be a predator does not mean trans women are predators or that they dont belong in womens spaces and your view that men are predators by virtue of existing is sexist as fuck.

read my post again. What you said doesn't answer it. Reading comprehension like I said earlier.

codey posted...

Once again, there are already predators in areas with children. We don't outlaw teachers because a few of them decide to fuck children, why would we discriminate against all trans people because there's a myth that all of them are predators that just want to get into women's bathrooms so they can assault them?

getting naked in front of kids at a spa =/= being a teacher at a school

Wooow. Just wow

shockthemonkey posted...

I want a society that accepts trans people and I will blame trans people every step of the way until we get there is where your argument is at right now. Muddying the name of transpeople for being a woman in a space for women is just transphobic bulls***.

Acknowledging that society will wrongly blame them every step of the way is not the same as myself blaming them.

Opisseus posted...

Crescente is one of the most aggressively transphobic posters on this site, and that is saying quite a lot. Just so you know shock

Dunking on him or whatev is just letting him spit more poison

@shockthemonkey

Honestly this thread is just fucking trash

Wth? Did you not see my support for Utada in that one topic? Da hell with you. I'm just speaking facts. There is potential for abuse if you allow anyone with a penis in a women's bathroom. You cannot deny that.