Current Events > How did Robert Beltran make it all the way through VOY without getting fired?

(+) Yeah! (+)

He hated the way Chakotay was portrayed, intentionally phoned in performances, openly trashed the show and its producers, etc.

Now, granted, it's understandable why he did all this. Chakotay's portrayal was disgraceful. Still, it seems like actively criticizing your employers wouldn't be the best way to stay employed.

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Because he used an old Maquis trick on the producers.

StarDestroyer posted...

Because he used an old Maquis trick on the producers.

Hmm, he was the best pilot on the ship. Clearly he used this expertise to steer around the producers.

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Same way I don't get fired for being BrutaI

Hard to find a replacement First Officer in the middle of the delta quadrant. Tuvok as first officer would have been dramatic suicide.

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I just want to know when the producers figured out they had been duped by their "Indian" consultant.

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Remember the sudden and out of nowhere Chakotay/7of9 romance?

That was bad lol.

BeyondWalls posted...

Hard to find a replacement First Officer in the middle of the delta quadrant. Tuvok as first officer would have been dramatic suicide.

depending on when it happened, they'd probably make 7 first officer.

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Medussa posted...

depending on when it happened, they'd probably make 7 first officer.

She didn't even have a rank. They could have promoted someone else, but like 5 different stories involve Janeway apologizing to Tuvok for not making him First Officer. Screwing him over twice would have been really hard to justify. And since Tuvok agreed with Janeway 90% of the time, the dramatic tension would have just died.

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Tuvok was next in the chain of command, so it would have to have been him.

Seven as First Officer would probably have caused a mutiny.

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BeyondWalls posted...

She didn't even have a rank.

thatsthejoke.meme

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Harry 'fucking never got promoted past ensign' Kim deserves to be promoted to first officer over Seven.

Medussa posted...

thatsthejoke.meme

I know. But it's not far off from the truth. Depending on the timeline she actually does start wearing a uniform. You said "depending on when" and Voyager did visit the future several times.

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guys. it was just a joke about how the show became "Seven & The Doctor" towards the end. it wasn't an actual opinion.

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StarDestroyer posted...

Harry 'fucking never got promoted past ensign' Kim deserves to be promoted to first officer over Seven.

He did get promoted. ...and they blew up that timeline in response.

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StarDestroyer posted...

Remember the sudden and out of nowhere Chakotay/7of9 romance?

That was bad lol.

I read once that this was done intentionally because Beltran didn't get along with Jeri Ryan, but I don't know the truth of it.

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Medussa posted...

guys. it was just a joke about how the show became "Seven & The Doctor" towards the end. it wasn't an actual opinion.

Sounds to me like you were offering a serious opinion about the Doctor's Emergency Command program and Seven's future career aspirations.

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Please state the nature of the command chain emergency.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

I read once that this was done intentionally because Beltran didn't get along with Jeri Ryan, but I don't know the truth of it.

Remember when Jeri married the producer who turned out to be a creep who forced her to go to sex clubs?

EDIT - oh wait, that wasn't Braga. That was the dude she was married to before dating Braga.

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Voyager was really where ST started to go downhill

Just lazy writing all around. How many shuttles did they lose, when there only should have been 2?

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BeyondWalls posted...

He did get promoted. ...and they blew up that timeline in response.

lol

Reminder that Tom Paris was demoted tp ensign and then promoted back to Lt, and Janeway said with a straight face to Harry once that she didn't have the room command wise to promote him.

What a missed oppurtunity from the writers to promote Kim and then having Paris adjusting to Kim outranking him now.

BeyondWalls posted...

Remember when Jeri married the producer who turned out to be a creep who forced her to go to sex clubs?

She dated Brannon Braga for a while, but he wasn't the one who did the sex club stuff. That was an ex-husband of hers who was a politician. And here's a fun fact: Barack Obama was elected to the Senate in 2004 because that ex-husband had to withdraw from the race after the sex club stuff became public

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On his end, for actors, work is work, and some are smart enough to keep a paycheck rather than walk.

On their end, it's hard and possibly unpleasant to say. Either they didn't have a decent way to write him off the show given the situation meant you can't replace starfleet personnel, or as is sometimes claimed, his character was more a diversity role they didn't want to lose the representation for. Might explain why he spent most of the last few seasons riding the second chair.

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HylianFox posted...

Just lazy writing all around. How many shuttles did they lose, when there only should have been 2?

Don't even get me started on the shuttle bay.


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BeyondWalls posted...

Don't even get me started on the shuttle bay.

Star Trek Voyager Gothic by quasi-normalcy @Tumblr

• You've been on this tiny ship in the Delta Quadrant beyond any hope of recrew or resupply for over a year, but you keep seeing ensigns you don't recognise. Everyone tells you that they've always been here.
• You go down to Engineering looking for Lt. Carey. B'Elanna tells you that he's just stepped out. He's been "just stepped out" for days.
• A shuttle crashes on a desert planet. You speak with Chakotay about the possibility of trading for some new shuttles, but he looks at you funny and says "but we already have a full complement of shuttles".
• You run to the shuttlebay and inspect them personally. There is a full complement of shuttles. And none of them even have a scratch.
• The next week, a shuttle is torn to pieces in a plasma storm. You're not even surprised when you find intact it in the shuttlebay an hour later.
• You stop mentioning shuttles.
• The ship has an encounter with some Kazon, but manages to get away. Their ships are primitive and slow and you shouldn't run into them again.
• Two weeks later, you meet the same Kazon, now somehow in front of you. You begin to suspect that you're driving in circles.
• You go to Engineering looking for Lt. Carey. You haven't seen him in two years. He's "not there right now, but should be back in a minute".
• Janeway and Paris travel at Warp 10 and turn into salamanders. You're *sure* that it happened. You *remember* it happening! But no one brings it up. When you ask Tom about it, he doesn't even register the question.
• You scream "BUT YOU WERE A SALAMANDER!" into his ear. He doesn't even hear you.
• You see another Ensign you don't recognise. You finally just ask the computer for the crew complement of Voyager. You are told that the answer is: 121.
• A month later, the Hirogen conquer the ship, spend weeks brainwashing and surgically altering the crew into believing that they are actually characters in holographic simulations, and then hunt them for sport. This culminates in a pitched battle between the crew and the Hirogen in which the ship is utterly wrecked and dozens of people are killed.
• Afterwards, you ask the computer for the ship's crew complement. You are told that the answer is: 147.
• The next day, you wake up and find Voyager restored to its original state.
• You make a discreet inquiry about Lt. Carey. Now everyone acts like he's dead but can't tell you precisely when or how.
• The Captain takes you aside one day and specifically instructs you not to mention Ensign Jetal to the Doctor. She says that she knows that this will be difficult, given how close we all were to her (and you in particular), but that for the greater good of the crew, you need to act like Ensign Jetal never existed. You solemnly nod your head and consent, and she gives you a comradely pat on the shoulder and leaves the room.
• You have absolutely no idea who Ensign Jetal is.
• Voyager absorbs the remaining crew of the USS Equinox. Well at least you'll finally have an explanation for the new crew you see around the ship! You never see any of them ever again.
• You've now travelled almost 40,000 light years towards home. You check the star charts; somehow, you're still in the Delta Quadrant. You begin to wonder if the Beta Quadrant even exists.
• The Delta Flyer is destroyed by Borg torpedoes. You don't even bother to check the shuttlebay for it, you just instinctively know that it will be back.
• A few months later, the Captain gives you the sad news: Lt. Carey is dead.
• You finally make it back to the Alpha Quadrant, say your tearful farewells, and receive a handshake and a promotion from Admiral Paris. As one last thought before leaving Voyager forever, you pay a visit to the shuttlebay. You find it utterly empty, except for one lowly crewman with a mop and pail, swabbing the deck. "I...guess that Starfleet must have already cleared out the remaining shuttles?" You say uncertainly, your voice echoing in the cavernous, empty room. The crewman breaks off his mopping and looks at you like you've lost your mind and says: "Voyager never had any shuttles."

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Tbh, I never really considered the shuttle conundrum all that big a problem. They can build more. They created the two Delta Flyers, after all.

Now, the photon torpedoes, on the other hand. The ship has a complement of 38 of them, and they can't be replicated. I'm fairly certain the ship fires a lot more than 38 of them over the course of the series.

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The writers and producers did complain about Beltran, but he was a hard worker and skilled actor. Most viewers respected Chakotay as a character

lightwarrior78 posted...

On their end, it's hard and possibly unpleasant to say. Either they didn't have a decent way to write him off the show given the situation meant you can't replace starfleet personnel, or as is sometimes claimed, his character was more a diversity role they didn't want to lose the representation for. Might explain why he spent most of the last few seasons riding the second chair.

Their intention was to provide for the Native American audience what Uhura did for African Americans. I suppose their heart was in the right place, but they didn't know at all how to write him, and having a fraud for an advisor certainly didn't help things.

Oh, and speaking of fraud:

BeyondWalls posted...

I just want to know when the producers figured out they had been duped by their "Indian" consultant.

They should have known right off the bat. "Jamake Highwater" had been exposed more than 10 years prior to the start of the series.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Tbh, I never really considered the shuttle conundrum all that big a problem. They can build more. They created the two Delta Flyers, after all.

Now, the photon torpedoes, on the other hand. The ship has a complement of 38 of them, and they can't be replicated. I'm fairly certain the ship fires a lot more than 38 of them over the course of the series.

There's a video with the exact count.

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https://youtu.be/PIGxMENwq1k

Voyager was a show that forgot its core premise basically during the pilot.

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Remember when they had the Maquis and Starfleet on the same ship, a situation that would cause all kinds of dramatic tension and then they did absolutely fuck all with it except make Tuvok a colossal asshole for one episode?

Or when they ass-pulled Chakotay's baby because they didn't want to bother evolving that character?
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Beltran was screwed pretty much from the start, haha. Wasn't the only reason he signed on to the show because he was keen to work alongside Genevive Bujold?

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Tom Clark posted...

Beltran was screwed pretty much from the start, haha. Wasn't the only reason he signed on to the show because he was keen to work alongside Genevive Bujold?

That's my understanding, yeah. He signed on to work with Bujold, but she had to leave because of the severity of the scheduling demands, so Mulgrew replaced her.

And then there was that business with Mulgrew's hair that meant they had to reshoot most of the pilot again. The production for that episode can charitably be called troubled.

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Chakotay was a trash character. I couldn't stand him.

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Voyager is fucking trash, if it wasn't for Picard it'd be the worst ST show ever.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

That's my understanding, yeah. He signed on to work with Bujold, but she had to leave because of the severity of the scheduling demands, so Mulgrew replaced her.

Which is the nice way to say she sucked. The footage of her thats out there is horrible.

SuperShake666 posted...

Voyager is fucking trash, if it wasn't for Picard it'd be the worst ST show ever.

Still better than Enterprise.

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SuperShake666 posted...

Voyager is fucking trash, if it wasn't for Picard it'd be the worst ST show ever.

that's a funny way of spelling "Discovery"

but yeah, as I said Voyager was where Star Trek started to become shit, none of the shows or movies since then have been any good...
:/

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I can forgive a lot of TNG's problems because they were bringing back the franchise after a lengthy absence and didn't quite know how to do things--and had an out-of-touch Roddenberry making things difficult early on. I can forgive most of DS9's problems because they were trying something new that went against a lot of what Star Trek had been all about up until that point. But Voyager had a great premise, a great cast, and the experience of the last two series to draw upon in order to know what worked and what didn't. And instead of using any of that, they decided to put out a mostly bland product that brought nothing really new to the table and repeated a lot of the worst mistakes of TNG and DS9 (ie: holodeck episodes, completely useless characters, etc.).

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jpenny2 posted...

: holodeck episodes,

Dont you dare insult Fair Haven or youll be trading fists with one Michael Sullivan!

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BeyondWalls posted...

Dont you dare insult Fair Haven or youll be trading fists with one Michael Sullivan!

It reached a point where it seemed like the writers just didn't want to be writing science fiction.

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To be fair, holodeck episodes just replaced the episodes of TOS where Kirk and co. would land on a planet that was inexplicably filled with old-school gangsters, or cowboys, or witches, or what have you. It's the same "fuck it, we're bored of space, we want to do [X] genre this week" backbone, just without the hokey "aliens/colonists were inspired by this particular period and based their entire planet on it" - replaced with "there's a magic room that say 'Fuck you, we're Robin Hood this week', deal with it."

I'm not a huge fan of them (except Our Man Bashir which I will defend to the death, haha), but they've been a staple of the franchise from the start in one form or another.

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Tom Clark posted...

Our Man Bashir

Fucking top shelf episode right there. Bashir and Garak are pure gold in it and I love how creatively Bashir saves the day.

Beltran was the only cast member at the time of Voyager making noise in the media about how bad the show was. For this, he had a lot of supporters in the fandom who also hated Voyager. He also acted as an unofficial spokesperson for the minority actors on the show. He was on a roll when he mentioned how Garrett Wang was the most mainstream of the actors due to being voted one of the sexiest men in a magazine, but hardly had screen time.

If the production fired Beltran, they were afraid it would validate every criticism he made about the show and how they treated the cast to the press. Instead, the producers tried to appease him through preferential treatment. They gave him Chakotay specific episodes, more screen time, and they hooked his character up with 7 of 9, who was the most popular character at the time.

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I think there is a place for holodeck/non-sci-fi episodes, especially if they're done well, which they usually aren't. I also liked Our Man Bashir, and some of the Sherlock Holmes stuff on TNG was pretty good. I think the reason I find their use in Voyager so egregious is because the ship was traveling through a whole other quadrant where the crew might come across things never seen before, but the writers decided it would be more fun to hang out on the holodeck.

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jpenny2 posted...

I can forgive a lot of TNG's problems because they were bringing back the franchise after a lengthy absence and didn't quite know how to do things--and had an out-of-touch Roddenberry making things difficult early on. I can forgive most of DS9's problems because they were trying something new that went against a lot of what Star Trek had been all about up until that point. But Voyager had a great premise, a great cast, and the experience of the last two series to draw upon in order to know what worked and what didn't. And instead of using any of that, they decided to put out a mostly bland product that brought nothing really new to the table and repeated a lot of the worst mistakes of TNG and DS9 (ie: holodeck episodes, completely useless characters, etc.).

Voyager's big sin was that they were completely beholden to the reset button, even though the nature of their situation really should lead to more permanent consequences.

I understand why they did it - Voyager was the flagship show of their new network and they felt like they needed to take it safe - but as someone who prefers DS9's structure to TNG's, it just felt like missed potential.
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TheOtherMike posted...

Fucking top shelf episode right there. Bashir and Garak are pure gold in it and I love how creatively Bashir saves the day.

I love how over the top Avery Brooks goes with it.

Everyone involved just looks like they're having so much fun.

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no one else ever seems to talk about it, so maybe i'm wrong, but it seems to me like watching Voyager's episodic failures are what made BSG so great a few years later.

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Medussa posted...

no one else ever seems to talk about it, so maybe i'm wrong, but it seems to me like watching Voyager's episodic failures are what made BSG so great a few years later.

I can definitely see it. The latter parts of BSG with them struggling with the ship literally falling apart should have been the tone of the later seasons of Voyager.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Voyager's big sin was that they were completely beholden to the reset button, even though the nature of their situation really should lead to more permanent consequences.

I understand why they did it - Voyager was the flagship show of their new network and they felt like they needed to take it safe - but as someone who prefers DS9's structure to TNG's, it just felt like missed potential.

I use to feel this way, but now that weve got shows like Battlestar Galactica and Stargate Universe, I think Voyager looks a bit better in retrospect. And to be fair to the Voyager producers, the sci-fi shows that came later that focused on serial episodes that were more hardcore survival stories werent sustainable long term as a series. Even BSG only made it less than half of Voyagers run. I think because the this week the crew needs ____ episodes get old quick. Voyager is sort of nice in that you can go back and jump in anywhere and be fine. You cant really say the same about BSG and SGU. I think thats one reason Voyager was much more successful in syndicated reruns.

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I remember the Rock giving someone the rock bottom

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