Current Events > Who do you respect more: Goku or Jiren?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I am voting for Jiren, for one major reason: Goku was unable to achieve deific levels of power on his own. It required a mystical Saiyan ritual for Goku to reach SSJ God, a form he was lightyears behind when compared with SSJ3. Jiren, on the other hand, not only achieved such level of power on his own, but reached a level of power far beyond that--even going toe to toe against MUI Goku--again, completely on his own.

No matter how high Goku climbs, even if he exceeds Jiren at this point, no one can ever take away the fact that Goku did not reach that level on his own. Jiren did.

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Counterpoint: Jiren had the inherent potential to achieve that level on his own. There's no escaping genetic fate.

also, close this topic

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Guide posted...

Counterpoint: Jiren had the inherent potential to achieve that level on his own. There's no escaping genetic fate.

also, close this topic

Genetics can only account for so much. And if you want to go that route, Goku has the genetic hax called a Zenkai boost.

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Goku achieved UI on his own tho. It's not related to his ritual stuff.
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Jiren doesnt even have a family. He is a weak.

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Ultra Instinct is way cooler than lame ass Jiren.

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Neither.

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

Genetics can only account for so much. And if you want to go that route, Goku has the genetic hax called a Zenkai boost.

Genetics and environment cover all possible factors. Zenkai stopped giving relevant power boosts after Namek.

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Graycap posted...

Goku achieved UI on his own tho. It's not related to his ritual stuff.

Goku's realization of UI is directly attributable to his SSJ God power. Remember, Jiren was effortlessly pushing the Spirit Bomb back to Goku; Goku had to power up to SSJ Blue Kaioken x20, just to keep the Spirit Bomb in an equal tug of war with Jiren. The Spirit Bomb then turned into a black hole of sorts, which as we know ultimately led to the first encounter with UI. But again, if Goku had never undergone the Saiyan ritual to achieve SSJ God levels of power, he never would have been able to keep the Spirit Bomb at bay in the first place, it would have harmed him greatly, and Jiren more than likely would have won the entire ToP before it even really began.

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idk much about jiren's training regime

goku got trained by roshi, korrin, kami, king kai, and now whis & beerus.
he also got a bunch of zenkai boosts and drank that ultra divine water that boosted strength a bit. i dont really think the ultra divine water helped out much in the end tho that was pre dbz

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lightyears is a measurement of distance, not time.

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Guide posted...

Genetics and environment cover all possible factors. Zenkai stopped giving relevant power boosts after Namek.

But we don't know to what extent Jiren is genetically predetermined to achieve power. It's a question mark. All we know for certain is that he reached that power, and if it was such an obvious genetic predisposition, then Universe 11's team would be all Grey aliens.

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PatrickMahomes posted...

lightyears is a measurement of distance, not time.

I was using it figuratively

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

But we don't know to what extent Jiren is genetically predetermined to achieve power. It's a question mark. All we know for certain is that he reached that power, and if it was such an obvious genetic predisposition, then Universe 11's team would be all Grey aliens.

His will to train is also predestined, and he could just be a freak.

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Guide posted...

His will to train is also predestined, and he could just be a freak.

*askance glance*

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Vegeta

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Isnt Jiren a cop tho?

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Why does getting support from others a lesser form of respect? If anything, having the ability to get others to rally towards you and unite to your cause together is a far more respectful trait than being a loner at everything you do.

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Jiren. Goku actively endangers everyone around him. He gave a senzu bean to Cell and to Maro. He caused Buu to appear and kill everyone. Goku is probably the dumbest protagonist of all time.

Jiren would have used his wish selfishly, thus dooming all universes. Goku almost certainly would have made the same wish as 17.

So I respect Goku more.

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PatrickMahomes posted...

lightyears is a measurement of distance, not time.

Thanks rock-trainer from Brock's Gym.

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AdrianBeterson posted...

Why does getting support from others a lesser form of respect? If anything, having the ability to get others to rally towards you and unite to your cause together is a far more respectful trait than being a loner at everything you do.

Morality-wise, you have a point. My argument is geared more toward the level of power. I have far greater respect for Jiren achieving god-like power on his own, than for Goku when all the latter had to do was stand in a circle with some other Saiyans and then, poof, god powers! And I really don't think there's any need to explain why Jiren doing it on his own is more impressive and thus more deserving of respect.

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Xavier_On_High posted...

Jiren would have used his wish selfishly, thus dooming all universes. Goku almost certainly would have made the same wish as 17.

So I respect Goku more.

Fair point.

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

Morality-wise, you have a point. My argument is geared more toward the level of power. I have far greater respect for Jiren achieving god-like power on his own, than for Goku when all the latter had to do was stand in a circle with some other Saiyans and then, poof, god powers! And I really don't think there's any need to explain why Jiren doing it on his own is more impressive and thus more deserving of respect.

But Goku's power comes from his ability to rally others. That's the whole point of his character throughout the DB franchise. Jiren's power came from his trauma and isolation. So in essence, yes, you are comparing the moral implications of whether you find the ability to gain power through being a leader more respectful vs. achieving power on your own.

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AdrianBeterson posted...

But Goku's power comes from his ability to rally others. That's the whole point of his character throughout the DB franchise. Jiren's power came from his trauma and isolation. So in essence, yes, you are comparing the moral implications of whether you find the ability to gain power through being a leader more respectful vs. achieving power on your own.

OK, but it's not like Goku achieved SSJ God because the Earth was in danger and he had to tap into some inner potential or else his friends would die. A bunch of Saiyans just stood in a circle and that was it. There's nothing morally glorious about that at all. It was a shortcut, it launched Goku beyond a gap that he never would have crossed otherwise.

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

OK, but it's not like Goku achieved SSJ God because the Earth was in danger and he had to tap into some inner potential or else his friends would die. A bunch of Saiyans just stood in a circle and that was it. There's nothing morally glorious about that at all. It was a shortcut, it launched Goku beyond a gap that he never would have crossed otherwise.

The importance of events or dangers of events is irrelevant to this discussion about Goku's ability to rally others to his cause being the source of his power. And there's nothing "glorious" about Goku's character or his leadership traits. If "glory" is what you find appealing and respectful, then sure, Jiren might fit your bill for what you find more respectful.

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Jiren fat titties, Goku rock hard

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AdrianBeterson posted...

The importance of events or dangers of events is irrelevant to this discussion about Goku's ability to rally others to his cause being the source of his power. And there's nothing "glorious" about Goku's character or his leadership traits. If "glory" is what you find appealing and respectful, then sure, Jiren might fit your bill for what you find more respectful.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Jiren achieving MUI-level power on his own is absolutely mind-boggingly impressive, and I respect that far more than Goku and friends singing "kumbayah"

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Jiren achieving MUI-level power on his own is absolutely mind-boggingly impressive, and I respect that far more than Goku and friends singing "kumbayah"

Using your argument, do you respect Frieza more than Goku being that Frieza achieved "god-like" powers on his own as well? And before you say Frieza is gifted, Jiren is gifted as well, we just don't know his backstory as well as we know Frieza's.

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AdrianBeterson posted...

Using your argument, do you respect Frieza more than Goku being that Frieza achieved "god-like" powers on his own as well? And before you say Frieza is gifted, Jiren is gifted as well, we just don't know his backstory as well as we know Frieza's.

In respect to power, yes I respect Frieza's accomplishments more. As a person, I respect Goku more than Frieza. Jiren's obsession with power is rooted in childhood trauma; he's not a bad person. Frieza is an evil bastard with insane potential.

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

In respect to power, yes I respect Frieza's accomplishments more. As a person, I respect Goku more than Frieza. Jiren's obsession with power is rooted in childhood trauma; he's not a bad person. Frieza is an evil bastard with insane potential.

At least you're consistent. Fair enough.

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Killmonger posted...

Neither.

Hard this.

Goku is a childish battle junkie.

Jiren is immature in his total adherence to might makes right.

Neither one is respectable in any way.

I respect Jiren more because Goku is a dumbass and his desire to fight almost got people killed.

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

Morality-wise, you have a point. My argument is geared more toward the level of power. I have far greater respect for Jiren achieving god-like power on his own, than for Goku when all the latter had to do was stand in a circle with some other Saiyans and then, poof, god powers! And I really don't think there's any need to explain why Jiren doing it on his own is more impressive and thus more deserving of respect.

By this logic, Vegeta is more deserving of respect than Goku.

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AdrianBeterson posted...

At least you're consistent. Fair enough.

In case you're curious, even though Frieza's jump from SSJ1-level to SSJB is absolutely nuts, I still respect Jiren's strength more than I respect Frieza's. It's heavily implied that Frieza's potential is far beyond anyone else, in terms of how quickly he can get stronger. Granted, I'm sure he was busting his ass for those four months of training, but the fact that he was able to make up that much lost ground screams hax0rz

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jumi posted...

By this logic, Vegeta is more deserving of respect than Goku.

I do respect Vegeta more :)

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

I do respect Vegeta more :)

Why do you respect Vegeta more?

He gains SSJ the same way as Goku did - through extreme emotional stress.
He gains SSJ2 by letting Babidi cast his spell over him - aka "poof, super powers".
He gains SS God the same way as Goku - holding hands singing kumbayah.

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AdrianBeterson posted...

Why do you respect Vegeta more?

He gains SSJ the same way as Goku did - through extreme emotional stress.
He gains SSJ2 by letting Babidi cast his spell over him - aka "poof, super powers".
He gains SS God the same way as Goku - holding hands singing kumbayah.

Because he continues to strive even knowing Goku will always be one step ahead of him. His mental toughness cannot be denied.

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AdrianBeterson posted...

He gains SSJ2 by letting Babidi cast his spell over him

He and Goku had achieved it during the timeskip, he just wanted roids to give him an edge on Goku.

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

Because he continues to strive even knowing Goku will always be one step ahead of him. His mental toughness cannot be denied.

So you respect him because his power and motivation are completely reliant on what Goku does?

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Guide posted...

He and Goku had achieved it during the timeskip, he just wanted roids to give him an edge on Goku.

Goku achieved it by training with the Kais.

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AdrianBeterson posted...

So you respect him because his power and motivation are completely reliant on what Goku does?

No, more the fact that he refuses to allow the fact that he will never surpass Goku to deter him from improving himself anyway. I feel like a lot of other people, they'd give up.

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Bump!

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Xavier_On_High posted...

Jiren would have used his wish selfishly, thus dooming all universes. Goku almost certainly would have made the same wish as 17.

So I respect Goku more.

Actually, on second thought...

It was Goku's careless naivete that inspired Zeno to host the ToP in the first place. Even if Jiren had won and made a selfish wish, this resulting in the obliteration of all universes, that still ultimately would be Goku's fault.

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There is no reason to respect one more than the other they both worked hard to be where theyre at.

The difference was one felt like he had to do it alone and could only rely on himself while Goku had friends and family.

The whole point was for Jiren to learn that lesson, thats he doesnt have to do every by himself and he has people he too can rely on.

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AdrianBeterson posted...

He gains SSJ the same way as Goku did - through extreme emotional stress.

Vegeta got SSJ off screen.

AdrianBeterson posted...

He gains SSJ2 by letting Babidi cast his spell over him - aka "poof, super powers".

Vegeta achieved SSJ2 during the time skip. He allowed himself to get possessed to the gap between his and Gokus SSJ2.

AdrianBeterson posted...

He gains SS God the same way as Goku - holding hands singing kumbayah.

Vegeta achieved SSJG by training with Whis

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Cell got the last zenkai.

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Bump

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Vegeta