Current Events > A teacher was fired for asking a though experiment question, was it justified?

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.thefire.org/update-st-johns-limits-academic-freedom-of-history-department-in-ongoing-effort-to-punish-professor-for-asking-question/

Richard Taylor had violated the schools Bias, Discrimination, and Harassment policy by asking a question in an introductory history class. The class was on the biological impact of transatlantic trade, and the question, in the last slide of his presentation: Do the positives justify the negatives?

You might well be wondering how asking that question could create a bias incident. Im not sure, because the school hasnt explained its reasoning. But if I had to guess, I assume the trail of breadcrumbs goes something like this: Enslaved people were treated like commodities in transatlantic trade; therefore, a thought exercise debating the outcomes of historical choices amounts to asking students to justify the practice of slavery. And because that topic is painful, the question re-traumatizes the descendants of the victims of slavery.

The counter-argument is that history is painful and understanding it requires confronting even the uncomfortable parts. That confrontation means subjecting historys most difficult chapters to the same inquiry any other topic would be given. And that would be true even if the topic had directly been slavery, instead of the development of global biodiversity through trade.

Taylor taught the class twice on Sept. 7. After the first section, which had 30 students, exactly one student complained about Taylors discussion prompt. None complained in the second section. Based on that complaint, a student group started a campaign to get Taylor fired.

Basically 1 of 30 students complained, many more students said they thought it was a valid question the course, the one complaint won and the guy was fired. Was it unfair to fire him? Or was this thought experiment question far too dangerous and worthy of being fired over?

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Stop at any experimental racist anything

didnt read the topic or what happened

yes

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bump

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though experiment

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Professors aren't teachers and conservatives are the biggest proponents of "cancel culture" on campus. God I can't wait til you get banned already.

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RebelElite791 posted...

Professors aren't teachers

"Professors aren't teachers" Do they teach a class? What a weird hill to die on.

and conservatives are the biggest proponents of "cancel culture" on campus.

Whataboutism. I didn't even say the political affiliation of the people involved. I frankly don't even know it because it's irrelevant to the question. IIRC St Johns is a moderatecly conservative institution and I believe the professor in question considers themselves a liberal. But again, which political team is getting/losing points is irrelevant to anybody who isn't a child.

God I can't wait til you get banned already.

It's sad how you literally want a person to get banned just because you disagree with them.

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SocialistGamer posted...

though experiment

D'oh!

Well hopefully people know what I meant :/

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I can't make this call without context.

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RebelElite791 posted...

Professors aren't teachers

u wot m8

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Teh_Dr_Phil posted...

u wot m8

When you use the term "teacher" it refers to someone working in K-12.

joe40001 posted...

It's sad how you literally want a person to get banned just because you disagree with them.

I want you to get banned because all you do is post stupid-ass brainworms topics about covid, defending racism against black people, or whining about liberals.

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Guide posted...

I can't make this call without context.

This is the image/question he was fired for:


This is the powerpoint of his entire lecture:
https://d28htnjz2elwuj.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/08135033/early-golbal-commodities-2.pptx.zip

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RebelElite791 posted...

I want you to get banned because all you do is post stupid-ass brainworms topics about covid, defending racism against black people, or whining about liberals.

Oh so you want me banned because you don't understand complex concepts, got it.

So when adults talk sometimes they have to engage this thing called "nuance". It means that sometimes you can't make a 2 second snap judgement about literally every issue based on the perceived political party of the people involved. You have to use this thing called a "brain" and "critical thinking". Now I know those things can be scary concepts but I promise you that when you grow up billy, you'll learn how to use them and they won't appear quite so scary.

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joe40001 posted...

This is the image/question he was fired for:

Yes, I read the page. I lack the context of where he was going with that. It could have been benign and academically-purposed, or he could be the type to push "racial realism" into his lectures.

Does that powerpoint include a recording of his dialogue?

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RebelElite791 posted...

God I can't wait til you get banned already.

This is literally disgusting. I disagree with your opinion so I want you to disappear. A sad class of people that exist today think this way, safe space, dont tell them anything they dont like.

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Now he's just plain race baiting with Conservative funded troll groups...

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Why would you think there was some "positives" to the slave trade TC?


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zinezinzadan posted...

This is literally disgusting. I disagree with your opinion so I want you to disappear. A sad class of people that exist today think this way, safe space, dont tell them anything they dont like.

yawn

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joe40001 posted...

So when adults talk sometimes they have to engage this thing called "nuance"

And you dont know what that is.
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RebelElite791 posted...

yawn

A nice way to accept the L. Thank you.

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Thought experiment lmao dude teaches history not philosophy

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sktgamer_13dude posted...

And you dont know what that is.

I fucking spent hours researching and citing my sources in that other topic, most of your responses have been things like "stfu" and "lol u dumb" I'm happy which side of the nuance/critical thinking issue thing I stand.

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VigorouslySwish posted...

Thought experiment lmao dude teaches history not philosophy

Thought experiments come up in many classes, guy. History, English, economics, sociology.

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Guide posted...

Yes, I read the page. I lack the context of where he was going with that. It could have been benign and academically-purposed, or he could be the type to push "racial realism" into his lectures.

Does that powerpoint include a recording of his dialogue?

From what I can see there was nothing he said that was the issue, it was literally that this question was being posed at all.

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joe40001 posted...

From what I can see there was nothing he said that was the issue, it was literally that this question was being posed at all.

The article really doesn't convey what exactly happened. Most of what's said beyond the actual fact of the matter is conjecture.

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joe40001 posted...

Richard Taylor had violated the schools Bias, Discrimination, and Harassment policy by asking a question in an introductory history class. The class was on the biological impact of transatlantic trade, and the question, in the last slide of his presentation: Do the positives justify the negatives?

This isn't what the complaint was about. He asked students to justify slavery.

https://texasnewstoday.com/a-professor-who-turned-into-a-police-officer-sued-st-johns--slavery-questions/154612/?amp

Taylor taught a lesson on Columbian exchange when he insisted that he asked students to delve into the pros and cons of trade, including the trade of slaves at the time.

Towards the end of the Columbus exchange class in September, Taylor allegedly asked students to justify slavery and brought him at least one complaint.

Also the fact that he had multiple complaints for similar actions when he was a police officer. Not to mention the clearly alt right things he posted on Twitter.

They also looked at his Twitter account, which appears to show the belief that SJU Radical claimed to be a racist.

A tweet tagged with Ben Shapiro said: Cancellation culture is coming at St. Johns University in Queens. Do they have any advice that Im a former cop and picking out to lie?

Taylor specifically tagged Ben Shapiro to get help with cultural cancellation

Taylor seems to have liked the tweet that called Black Lives Matter a domestic terrorist group.

'Taylor also threatened to swing to supporters of Black Lives Matter with his fists raised."

As a privately funded school St. John's is well within it's rights to fire someone for those actions. The same way religious schools can fire teachers for being gay.
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I mean, what exactly what said during the class by the professor when he asked and brought up this question
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joe40001 posted...

I fucking spent hours researching and citing my sources in that other topic, most of your responses have been things like "stfu" and "lol u dumb" I'm happy which side of the nuance/critical thinking issue thing I stand.

Yes, and the expert was even saying you didnt know what you were talking about. If theres something medical/doctor related, Im going to take DarkRoasts opinion on the matter. She knows a lot, lot more than I do about any of that stuff.

I can spend hours researching black holes and space but that doesnt make me an expert on space and black holes. If an astrophysicist or whatever tells me Im wrong about something like that, Im probably wrong. No matter how much research I do.
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I remember these portions of my early schooling as well.

People wanted spices, among other things.


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joe40001 posted...

I fucking spent hours researching and citing my sources in that other topic, most of your responses have been things like "stfu" and "lol u dumb" I'm happy which side of the nuance/critical thinking issue thing I stand.

You did a fine job showing that COVID may have been altered, but you started the topic on the wrong foot and no one bought into your premise.

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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Yes, and the expert was even saying you didnt know what you were talking about. If theres something medical/doctor related, Im going to take DarkRoasts opinion on the matter. She knows a lot, lot more than I do about any of that stuff.

I can spend hours researching black holes and space but that doesnt make me an expert on space and black holes. If an astrophysicist or whatever tells me Im wrong about something like that, Im probably wrong. No matter how much research I do.

You sound bitter and need help. I have no knowledge on what happened here Im just a casual browsing, but you clearly are just here to personally attack this guy instead of adding anything of substance to the topic? Why are you bullying people? Same as @sktgamer_13dude . Why are you bullying people? It looks filthy for your image.

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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Yes, and the expert was even saying you didnt know what you were talking about. If theres something medical/doctor related, Im going to take DarkRoasts opinion on the matter. She knows a lot, lot more than I do about any of that stuff.

I can spend hours researching black holes and space but that doesnt make me an expert on space and black holes. If an astrophysicist or whatever tells me Im wrong about something like that, Im probably wrong. No matter how much research I do.

1. DarkRoast has not responded since I posted my aggregated evidence
2. I don't claim to be an expert. But I do claim to cite experts with detailed evidence.
3. Only part of my argument related to the science. Much of it related to speech, the politics around it, and how that impacts research.
4. Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy. People with PhDs are perfectly capable of being dismissive, wrong, or emotional even about their area of expertise.
5. Saying my arguments are imperfect is a different claim that I operate without nuance. I am clearly demonstrating more nuance, attention to detail, and critical thinking than you

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zinezinzadan posted...

You sound bitter and need help. I have no knowledge on what happened here Im just a casual browsing, but you clearly are just here to personally attack this guy instead of adding anything of substance to the topic? Why are you bullying people? Same as @sktgamer_13dude . Why are you bullying people? It looks filthy for your image.

I don't see any bullying from the post you quoted.

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Guide posted...

I don't see any bullying from the post you quoted.

He's a far-right troll who randomly pulls out that alt and accuses people of "bullying" when they talk shit to other conservatives.

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harley2280 posted...

This isn't what the complaint was about. He asked students to justify slavery.

https://texasnewstoday.com/a-professor-who-turned-into-a-police-officer-sued-st-johns--slavery-questions/154612/?amp

Also the fact that he had multiple complaints for similar actions when he was a police officer. Not to mention the clearly alt right things he posted on Twitter.

As a privately funded school St. John's is well within it's rights to fire someone for those actions. The same way religious schools can fire teachers for being gay.

see, joe, this is the kind of stuff that would have been good to include in the first post

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zinezinzadan posted...

You sound bitter and need help. I have no knowledge on what happened here Im just a casual browsing, but you clearly are just here to personally attack this guy instead of adding anything of substance to the topic? Why are you bullying people? Same as @sktgamer_13dude . Why are you bullying people? It looks filthy for your image.

literally whos alt are you

joe40001 posted...

1. DarkRoast has not responded since I posted my aggregated evidence
2. I don't claim to be an expert. But I do claim to cite experts with detailed evidence.
3. Only part of my argument related to the science. Much of it related to speech, the politics around it, and how that impacts research.
4. Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy. People with PhDs are perfectly capable of being dismissive, wrong, or emotional even about their area of expertise.
5. Saying my arguments are imperfect is a different claim that I operate without nuance. I am clearly demonstrating more nuance, attention to detail, and critical thinking than you

1) and you were still wrong
2) you claimed to know what you were talking about and was shown that you didnt, multiple times
3) youre still wrong
4) I never said I would 100% be wrong if I did research and an expert said I was wrong. I said Id likely be, because as someone just doing quick research, who am I to actually parse through the data and actually be able to analyze it correctly when I come in blind.
5) obviously not, because for someone who continuously bitched at me for not understanding youre argument, you just did the exact same thing to me.

No one of merit will fall for your just asking a question! and sealioning bullshit.
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Guide posted...

I don't see any bullying from the post you quoted.

If you engage in debate with a classmate during class, then follow him around everywhere he goes after the class is finished so you can keep throwing verbal attacks directed towards him, thats literally harassment. I shouldnt have to explain this I hope youre not a general reflection of what most posters on CE resemble with their thinking. How is that not bullying?

The debate ends when the class ends. Following the guy around like a puppy is bullying.

These 2 had an altercation in a previous post, and now the 2 mentioned users came in here with a negative attitude clearly stained from their previous topic. Well this is a new topic, get over it and grow up. Imagine if I followed you in any other topic you made and I kept belittling you with, how is it not bullying?! Now you get it? This is middle school maturity I feel weird even having to explain this childish behavior I wont lie. This is weird.

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emblem boy posted...

I mean, what exactly what said during the class by the professor when he asked and brought up this question

I think had he said something grossly different than what was on the slide that would be part of the complaint/story.

https://www.thefire.org/teaching-history-not-permitted-st-johns
-bulldozes-academic-freedom-punishes-professor
-for-posing-question-about-columbian-exchange/

On Sept. 7, Taylor taught the Columbian Exchange to his Emergence of a Global Society class. As it has in earlier years, Taylors instruction focused on early global trade, including trade in silver and potatoes. As part of the class, he also covered the more pernicious aspects of early trade, such as slavery, the abuse of indigenous populations, and the spreading of disease. On his final slide was a discussion prompt: Do the positives justify the negatives? A lively discussion ensued. One student said slavery could never be justified. According to Taylor, he clarified that no one is justifying slavery and asked students to consider global trade as a whole, including lives lost to disease and lives saved from famine.

Three days later, the Instagram account sjuradicals posted slides stating that Taylor forced students to formulate a pros and cons list concerning the topic of slavery and alleged he poses a dangerous threat to the education of our student body. The final item urged readers to direct a form letter to the university in order to bring meaningful justice to this heinous crime committed by Professor Taylor. The post also mentions Taylors service in the Marine Corps and the New York Police Department. Later that day, history department chair Nerina Rustomji informed Taylor by phone that he was removed from teaching.

On Sept. 15, Taylor met with Director of Equal Opportunity and Compliance Keaton Wong, who informed Taylor there were over 300 complaints of misconduct against him. Taylor found this surprising, as there were only 30 students in the class where the alleged misconduct occurred. Wong informed Taylor that St. Johns intended to treat each of the identical sjuradicals form letters as a stand-alone complaint, and that St. Johns could find him in violation of campus policy without identifying which portion of the policy he violated or what specific conduct violated the policy.

I would like other sources, but it very much seems like he had this as a thought experiment about the whole process, some person took it to mean "he asked us to justify slavery". They framed it that way and put it on their instagram with an easy to use form letter to complain, then he instantly had 300 complaints in his class of 30 students and was fired.

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harley2280 posted...

joe40001 posted...

Richard Taylor had violated the schools Bias, Discrimination, and Harassment policy by asking a question in an introductory history class. The class was on the biological impact of transatlantic trade, and the question, in the last slide of his presentation: Do the positives justify the negatives?

This isn't what the complaint was about. He asked students to justify slavery.

https://texasnewstoday.com/a-professor-who-turned-into-a-police-officer-sued-st-johns--slavery-questions/154612/?amp

Taylor taught a lesson on Columbian exchange when he insisted that he asked students to delve into the pros and cons of trade, including the trade of slaves at the time.

Towards the end of the Columbus exchange class in September, Taylor allegedly asked students to justify slavery and brought him at least one complaint.

Also the fact that he had multiple complaints for similar actions when he was a police officer. Not to mention the clearly alt right things he posted on Twitter.

They also looked at his Twitter account, which appears to show the belief that SJU Radical claimed to be a racist.

A tweet tagged with Ben Shapiro said: Cancellation culture is coming at St. Johns University in Queens. Do they have any advice that Im a former cop and picking out to lie?

Taylor specifically tagged Ben Shapiro to get help with cultural cancellation

Taylor seems to have liked the tweet that called Black Lives Matter a domestic terrorist group.

'Taylor also threatened to swing to supporters of Black Lives Matter with his fists raised."

As a privately funded school St. John's is well within it's rights to fire someone for those actions. The same way religious schools can fire teachers for being gay.

Ya, seems like there's more to this story than was originally presented.

This is a tangent, but I find this from TCs post.. Kinda funny.

joe40001 posted...

The counter-argument is that history is painful and understanding it requires confronting even the uncomfortable parts. That confrontation means subjecting historys most difficult chapters to the same inquiry any other topic would be given.

Some of the same people who would agree with that statement are probably some of the same people who agree with limiting, (edit: through the use of law), how various subjects are thought at schools because they say it's too emotionally difficult and harmful to the students. The students and subjects they care about in these instances is what makes the difference
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

literally whos alt are you

1) and you were still wrong
2) you claimed to know what you were talking about and was shown that you didnt, multiple times
3) youre still wrong
4) I never said I would 100% be wrong if I did research and an expert said I was wrong. I said Id likely be, because as someone just doing quick research, who am I to actually parse through the data and actually be able to analyze it correctly when I come in blind.
5) obviously not, because for someone who continuously bitched at me for not understanding youre argument, you just did the exact same thing to me.

No one of merit will fall for your just asking a question! and sealioning bullshit.

Oh I see, I've learned from you how to do counter arguments. Let me try: *ahem*

1. Nope
2. Wrong and nope
3. Still wrong everybody knows wrong and dumb
4. Nope nope nope
5. Wrong
6. Nope wrong no
7. Still wrong
8. Wrong
9. NOOOOOPE
10. lol nope u dumb
11. Nope
12. WRONG nope

There, now that I talk more like you, can you understand?

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zinezinzadan posted...

I shouldnt have to explain this

I have emotes disabled on my browser, but this is clearly a negative attitude.

You could have a point, but it's only tangential to my statement. You quoted a post, saying it was bullying. That post contained no bullying. The quote makes no sense for your purposes, especially if there are other examples you could use.

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RebelElite791 posted...

He's a far-right troll who randomly pulls out that alt and accuses people of "bullying" when they talk shit to other conservatives.

Oh, I have him tagged. He gets real pissy real easy if you play his game back at him.

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To the 5 who voted yes.
YOU are the problem with the world. I hope you sit and think on how much everyone dislikes you.

Guide posted...

I have emotes disabled on my browser, but this is clearly a negative attitude.

You could have a point, but it's only tangential to my statement. You quoted a post, saying it was bullying. That post contained no bullying. The quote makes no sense for your purposes, especially if there are other examples you could use.

2 posters came in here to harass a user about a subject from a previous topic. Im the only 1 out of dozens of posters in here who stood up for whats right.

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harley2280 posted...

This isn't what the complaint was about. He asked students to justify slavery.

Look at the slides/lecture. Are they framing what he said accurately?

If that article is not framing what the lecture was accurately then why would you trust the framing of the rest of the article?

It seemed like the student activism group that was mobilized from the instagram post from the one student tried to find anything in his history to hold against him, including going through all his previous tweets and his entire police record.

Considering he was hired and fully vetted, the issue in question is this lecture, and this lecture posed the thought experiment question: "The class was on the biological impact of transatlantic trade, and the question, in the last slide of his presentation: Do the positives justify the negatives?

Is that question something worth firing somebody over?

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In debate class, there IS value in forcing people to play Devil's Advocate for topics in which that viewpoint is reprehensible. Only because understanding your opposition makes you much better at debate itself. I actually very much enjoy playing Devil's Advocate in legitimate discussions because it forces people with consensus viewpoints to think more critically and justify their views. But I always make it absolutely clear that I don't believe the views or arguments I'm expressing.

That said, from what I understand this wasn't a debate class. So it kind of depends on how the teacher framed the question and what the purpose of the exercise was.


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zinezinzadan posted...

2 posters came in here to harass a user about a subject from a previous topic. Im the only 1 out of dozens of posters in here who stood up for whats right.

You said 2 posters, quoted my post, and then tagged me AFTER QUOTING MY POST as if I was a different person. And Im the one just getting angry to get angry.

Also seems like I broke Joe. Who will ever sea lion CE like crazy if he wont!?
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joe40001 posted...

Is that question something worth firing somebody over?

Yes, in the full context that we have from the multiple articles posted about the situation shows that he was doing it in terrible context.

Just because you dont want to believe the other source doesnt mean its wrong.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

You said 2 posters, quoted my post, and then tagged me AFTER QUOTING MY POST as if I was a different person. And Im the one just getting angry to get angry.

Also seems like I broke Joe. Who will ever sea lion CE like crazy if he wont!?

lol sorry,

You mistook me communicating in the same manner as you communicate as me actually becoming a fucking moron.

No, I'm fine. You failed to "break" me. But it's interesting that that's your goal.

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joe40001 posted...

Look at the slides/lecture. Are they framing what he said accurately?

they're certainly doing a better job contextualizing it than that article you linked in the first post

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