Current Events > What if religion isn't fake?

(+) Yeah! (+)

pure_temper posted...

and the Christian view is really just that God has already solved the suffering in the world by making Heaven for the ppl who get there, and our perception of time just has to catch up

I can get behind this if there is a belief that God did not create the world. If God did create the world then question is why? To filter people into Heaven? Why not filter people before they are born? Im trying to understand what Gods limitations are because you seem to be heavily implying there are indeed limitations.

I cant even imagine telling my family that God has limitations. That would go horrible

EDIT: It is nice to actually have a conversation about this. There is no way I can have this conversation with anyone in the real world.

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Lonestar2000 posted...

So which of the thousands of gods should I be worshiping?

you know how atheists would argue that Jesus has many parallels in history, therefore he must have been borrowed from other cultures? My view is that they were all either the same person or they were all from the same civilization

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Mackorov posted...

what if you'll really go to hell and burn for eternity if you don't believe in God?

would it not be safer to just proclaim you belief in some supernatural entity, spend like just 1 minute to pray each day and be assured you'll go to heaven than to be straight up athiest?

I don't think it counts if you dont truly believe .

I have a hard time getting behinf a god anyways that will send good people to hell of they dont worship but take evil people just cause they believed and where sorry.

If god makes his existence known without a doubt I'll be the first to bend my knee. Till then I just try to be a good person and hope for the best.

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pure_temper posted...

i think the probability changes when we look at human progress

why would an evil god allow any human progress at all?

It doesn't need to be evil. It could just be doing it for the lulz.

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DepreceV2 posted...

I looked a little bit into this. I guess his argument is that God cant create a world with free will and exclude evil from it. That is logical for sure but I have questions following that up. If that is the case then why create a world with free will to begin with? If you can create a world with no evil but limit the free will of people then why not do that? Why create a world with all this suffering?

I respectfully disagree. To me I believe it's impossible to have a world with both free will and without 'sin' (or flaws as I'd rather call it). The moment you grant free will, you're giving a human being emotions, including greed, selfishness, skepticism and so on. It's like yin and yang. You can't just create a human being with only positive attributes and call that free will. No, we might as well call that human being a damn robot then. That's also the problem I find with the concept of heaven. If heaven exists and we go there, how can we NOT be sinful and still keep our free will? It's contradictory!
This means if we go heaven, for it to remain heaven, we'd all have to become robots.

Also, speaking on this. I feel like this would be a good point if there were no verses in the Bible directly referencing this very thing.

thanks for reminding me on this. The same people that hypocritically point out that there's no hell mentioned in the bible then they themselves mention this.
The Bible really doesn't directly describe God as omnipotent. Or at least, not clearly and definitely no author back then actually used the word 'omnipotent'. Neither do they mention 'universe'. Words commonly used only included 'almighty' or 'great' etc.,. as typical of such an ancient period.

Also to note is that the writers back then had some stupid love for using the word 'ever' and 'forever'. That could be why Christians tend to associate God with eternity and blah blah unvierse and blah blah everything, everyone etc

DepreceV2 posted...

I can get behind this if there is a belief that God did not create the world. If God did create the world then question is why? To filter people into Heaven? Why not filter people before they are born? Im trying to understand what Gods limitations are because you seem to be heavily implying there are indeed limitations.

I cant even imagine telling my family that God has limitations. That would go horrible

he willingly accepts limitations because the goal was to create beings like himself

free-willed beings which can create novel things. people which can approximate his own capabilities over time

the greatest engineering & art project imaginable, like The Matrix except irl

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pure_temper posted...

you know how atheists would argue that Jesus has many parallels in history, therefore he must have been borrowed from other cultures? My view is that they were all either the same person or they were all from the same civilization

That is a fair view. A lot of Religions seem to have similar stories so I always felt there was some truth there. I just have a hard time comprehending the why of many things


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Religion is stupid fucking bull shit and I will never buy into it.

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ssjevot posted...

It doesn't need to be evil. It could just be doing it for the lulz.

in any case if you believe it is equally probable, then the choice of which one bets on is ultimately a reflection on whether or not someone is a pessimist vs optimist ;)

im an optimist that good people go to heaven, where being good means trying your best and improving every day. Basically loving people in the most authentic way you can.

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Mackorov posted...

Also to note is that the writers back then had some stupid love for using the word 'ever' and 'forever'. That could be why Christians tend to associate God with eternity and blah blah unvierse and blah blah everything, everyone etc

I can see that. So I guess its fair to say that a lot of the text has been misinterpreted over the centuries. Its hard to tell what is correct and what is fabricated with on accident or purpose


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maybe we can grant that god does exist but why should there be heaven or hell?

doing 'good' would not be doing kindness to another but for building favors for you to get to heaven?

if all this talk of rewards/punishment distorts your intentions, how could you be eligible to get to your paradise

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DepreceV2 posted...

That is a fair view. A lot of Religions seem to have similar stories so I always felt there was some truth there. I just have a hard time comprehending the why of many things

yeah my view is that holy books are early human attempts to record and codify stuff that was in common across the ancient world

records of terraforming and someone violating a Prime Directive (if they have such a thing) to save a young species from extinction

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Nukazie posted...

maybe we can grant that god does exist but why should there be heaven or hell?

doing 'good' would not be doing kindness to another but for building favors for you to get to heaven?

if all this talk of rewards/punishment distorts your intentions, how could you be eligible to get to your paradise

it really is just about Love

that is why when Jesus was asked what the greatest / most important commandment was, he basically straight up said Just love everyone and yourself

edit: you seen Interstellar?

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pure_temper posted...

yeah my view is that holy books are early human attempts to record and codify stuff that was in common across the ancient world

records of terraforming and someone violating a Prime Directive (if they have such a thing) to save a young species from extinction

What is your take on the Big Bang? I know people were heavily against but I ended up rationalizing it by saying both God and the Big Bang can exist.

Might as well ask the other big one as well... what is your take on human evolution?


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pure_temper posted...

in any case if you believe it is equally probable, then the choice of which one bets on is ultimately a reflection on whether or not someone is a pessimist vs optimist ;)

im an optimist that good people go to heaven, where being good means trying your best and improving every day. Basically loving people in the most authentic way you can.

I think they're all equally probable. I just try to live the best life I can and I don't believe anything happens when you die, so I don't worry about such things. My point is just that if we assume a god exists all the possibilities are equally likely, so it doesn't make a compelling argument one way or the other.

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Nukazie posted...

maybe we can grant that god does exist but why should there be heaven or hell?

doing 'good' would not be doing kindness to another but for building favors for you to get to heaven?

if all this talk of rewards/punishment distorts your intentions, how could you be eligible to get to your paradise

yeah, that's the hypocrisy I find in the Bible and Christians in general. I asked them about it and their response is "I do good because I actually enjoy it".

I couldn't refute that since I cant read their minds but it's a cop-out to me. The whole reason Christians do what they do in the first place, is to get to heaven. It's that simple. But no pastor is going to say, "Please do good so you can get to heaven". They twist and mingle up their words so we get a blurred view of our own morality

DepreceV2 posted...

What is your take on the Big Bang? I know people were heavily against but I ended up rationalizing it by saying both God and the Big Bang can exist.

Might as well ask the other big one as well... what is your take on human evolution?

God said let there be light

BAAAAAAAAANG now theres stars and matter everywhere and light/space expand into what we now call the cosmos

evolution imo is just an algorithm for deriving variety of life from building blocks

you seed the right stuff onto a planet and eventually it just starts assembling itself into life forms

and if you get the recipe just right, eventually those life forms become conscious

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DepreceV2 posted...

What is your take on the Big Bang? I know people were heavily against but I ended up rationalizing it by saying both God and the Big Bang can exist.

Might as well ask the other big one as well... what is your take on human evolution?

I am actually curious what the stances of religious people is who believe in the Big Bang. Did god start it off so life progressed as it actually did? Slowly forming over billions of years, dinosaurs, evolution etc? If god did start it, then what about gods origins? For if the point of creation (the big bang) had to have something start it, then why not god? And if god didn't need one, then why did the big bang?

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ssjevot posted...

I think they're all equally probable. I just try to live the best life I can and I don't believe anything happens when you die, so I don't worry about such things. My point is just that if we assume a god exists all the possibilities are equally likely, so it doesn't make a compelling argument one way or the other.

yeah that sounds reasonable. I too try to live the best life possible. I guess it also depends on how much probability one assigns to the idea that this being ever intervenes in our lives or communicated/communicated with people

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pure_temper posted...

it really is just about Love

that is why when Jesus was asked what the greatest / most important commandment was, he basically straight up said Just love everyone and yourself

edit: you seen Interstellar?

i havent seen it yet

and about what you said about love, people prove to be selfish, we cant help it
we have to look out for ourselves, some things dont work out and people will let us down, the economy can let us down, the environment can let us down, our response is to control things, and there isn't much love in control, is there?

is it meant to be a challenge? to have time to love people? to love god? we can fail, we will feel enormous amount of guilt but dont worry, church has institutionalized guilt as a virtue

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Funkydog posted...

I am actually curious what the stances of religious people is who believe in the Big Bang. Did god start it off so life progressed as it actually did? Slowly forming over billions of years, dinosaurs, evolution etc? If god did start it, then what about gods origins? For if the point of creation (the big bang) had to have something start it, then why not god? And if god didn't need one, then why did the big bang?

time works differently depending on where you are and who you are

Are you the programmer? Running a command takes seconds. But from the CPUs perspective billions of events happened. If we lived in a simulation we would be beholden to CPU-time so seconds of real time would resemble billions of years for us

as for who made God...maybe God was just the first mind to ever materialize out of cosmos? Like a first Boltzman brain. Or maybe God always existed? I have to think about this more because afaik no one has a good theory and i dont either

I do personally have no problems just saying i dont know, though. I can accept that the universe is eternal or that God is eternal. Either one is fine, and if the universe is eternal we could definitely have still been created by beings trillions of years old

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pure_temper posted...

I do personally have no problems just saying i dont know, though. I can accept that the universe is eternal or that God is eternal. Either one is fine, and if the universe is eternal we could definitely have still been created by beings trillions of years old

That's fair and a stance I can understand. As long as the logic used for god's existence is also used for "the universe" it's something I can accept, even if I don't agree with the existence of a deity.

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Nukazie posted...

i havent seen it yet

and about what you said about love, people prove to be selfish, we cant help it
we have to look out for ourselves, some things dont work out and people will let us down, the economy can let us down, the environment can let us down, our response is to control things, and there isn't much love in control, is there?

is it meant to be a challenge? to have time to love people? to love god? we can fail, we will feel enormous amount of guilt but dont worry, church has institutionalized guilt as a virtue

institutionalized guilt is evil and for mind-control. Guilt should be a personal matter, for reminding us of when we do wrong. Some institutions on the other hand try to weaponize it so the leaders can control minds and lives.

but to answer your main question, yeah i do think the point is for the species and individuals to learn how to love & improve over time. If you compare humans today to 100 years ago or 1,000 years ago we have come a long way in improving, and will keep improving.

my serious view on it is that were intended to get to Star Trek!

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Funkydog posted...

That's fair and a stance I can understand. As long as the logic used for god's existence is also used for "the universe" it's something I can accept, even if I don't agree with the existence of a deity.

yeah both are valid.

tbh the question of who made God or an eternal universe is a fun one to speculate on but not a critical one for maintaining a belief

because if the universe is eternal, the probability that there arent beings trillions of years old and basically godlike...is 0% imo

and isnt that what the worlds religious really believe at the end of the day? They believe in beings that are trillions of years old that can do...whatever technology can do after trillions of years of innovation ;)

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nfearurspecimn posted...

imagine being a "loving god" that punishes people for choosing the wrong religion with everlasting torment

Ah, yes, the standard ignorant 'I don't know anything other than what I gleaned from superficial cultural osmosis'.

This may come as a shock to you but hell is not a part of Christian teachings or beliefs. Jesus died for our sins and redeems us, so we'll all go to Heaven, fairly or not.

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Ilishe posted...

Ah, yes, the standard ignorant 'I don't know anything other than what I gleaned from superficial cultural osmosis'.

This may come as a shock to you but hell is not a part of Christian teachings or beliefs. Jesus died for our sins and redeems us, so we'll all go to Heaven, fairly or not.

that is my view too but i wouldnt be so mean about it because its possible to be a decent person who just rightfully sees the superficial bullshit from Kenneth Copeland and etc and to then throw the baby out with the bathwater

in general the only thing imo that can really take away redemption is the unforgivable sin, of which there is just one. And its basically Pride to an extreme degree

like when the Pharisees saw proof of what Jesus was doing and hated it so much because they could no longer control the people, that they straight up connived to murder him and started saying his miracles were demonic in origin

meanwhile they were doing no miracles and just wanted to retain their system of enslavement over regular minds

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Personally, I worship a small copper teapot somewhere in space.

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Then I am screwed.

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The_Creep_2020 posted...

Personally, I worship a small copper teapot somewhere in space.

hehehehe

*pays a small sum to ship a small
copper teapot into orbit around Mars, next to the Tesla Roadster*

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Funkydog posted...

I am actually curious what the stances of religious people is who believe in the Big Bang. Did god start it off so life progressed as it actually did? Slowly forming over billions of years, dinosaurs, evolution etc? If god did start it, then what about gods origins? For if the point of creation (the big bang) had to have something start it, then why not god? And if god didn't need one, then why did the big bang?

For those Christians that don't believe in biblical literalism, it's pretty easy:

1. God is infinite. Nothing came before him. Time is a concept made by him.
2. God created the universe, the first living cells, dinosaurs...then evolution blah blah... then came Adam and Eve... then resume history from there

As long as you're still alive, you have a chance to get into Heaven, TC. I hope to see you there some day.

https://youtu.be/tB4gmkXyR0A
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What if Scientology is the correct religion?

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Funkydog posted...

I am actually curious what the stances of religious people is who believe in the Big Bang. Did god start it off so life progressed as it actually did? Slowly forming over billions of years, dinosaurs, evolution etc?

Yup

Funkydog posted...

If god did start it, then what about gods origins? For if the point of creation (the big bang) had to have something start it, then why not god? And if god didn't need one, then why did the big bang?

I don't get what you're getting at here. The whole point of God is that he is the creator and not the created. Otherwise he wouldn't be God. Does that answer your question?
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hockeybub89 posted...

What if Scientology is the correct religion?

Hubbard was a satanist who was friends with fellow satanist, Jack Parsons.
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DarthSungKang posted...

Hubbard was a satanist who was friends with fellow satanist, Jack Parsons.

What if Satanism is the correct religion?

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hockeybub89 posted...

What if Satanism is the correct religion?

correct in what sense? I mean I believe Lucifer is real too but what do you mean?

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Mackorov posted...

For those Christians that don't believe in biblical literalism, it's pretty easy:

1. God is infinite. Nothing came before him. Time is a concept made by him.
2. God created the universe, the first living cells, dinosaurs...then evolution blah blah... then came Adam and Eve... then resume history from there

Which then brings about a logical inconsistency. If god can be infinite and time was created by him, why is his existence necessary at all and the big bang not be the source of creation? If god was first, why not the big bang? If he didn't need something before him, why does the big bang?

The existence of a deity ultimately seems to be adding an extra step to solve something without actually giving an answer of "where" We're still left off with no actual answer and just answering the why with the same answer. Really we have no answer (that I'm aware of) of how the big bang came to be and that is it's whole own discussion really (but one I do think is pretty fascinating. The whole concept of time not existing before it and how that might change things)

teep_ posted...

I don't get what you're getting at here. The whole point of God is that he is the creator and not the created. Otherwise he wouldn't be God. Does that answer your question?

The point is they are applying different sets of rules. If one could "always be" then why not the other? If one simply sprang into existence, or however you define the existence of something before time came to be, why not the other? God's existence just seems to be applying another step without actually answering the question it's meant to answer. The big bang could be just as much a creator as a deity in the end and it gives just as much as an answer as involving a deity in the process.

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Funkydog posted...

Which then brings about a logical inconsistency. If god can be infinite and time was created by him, why is his existence necessary at all and the big bang not be the source of creation? If god was first, why not the big bang? If he didn't need something before him, why does the big bang?

The existence of a deity ultimately seems to be adding an extra step to solve something without actually giving an answer of "where" We're still left off with no actual answer and just answering the why with the same answer. Really we have no answer (that I'm aware of) of how the big bang came to be and that is it's whole own discussion really (but one I do think is pretty fascinating. The whole concept of time not existing before it and how that might change things)

what about my answer? That it doesnt matter because if the universe itself is eternal, we would definitely have beings out there that have existed for billions if not trillions of years

for example were putting probes into deep space now and know a thing or two about terraforming and imo have most likely made it beyond the great filter

were not even a Type 1 civilization and we can do all this

if the universe is eternal and life on earth was arbitrary, 0% probability it only happened once lol

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pure_temper posted...

correct in what sense? I mean I believe Lucifer is real too but what do you mean?

I mean, what if a religion a lot of people consider a cult or evil was the religion they were supposed to believe in? What if there is some even worse true religion no one has ever practiced and billions of people will actually burn in hell for believing in God and not being an incredibly evil individual? Everyone merely assumes they are doing it right, if there even is a higher power and afterlife. Lucifer or something worse than him could actually be the all-powerful creator being.

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hockeybub89 posted...

I mean, what if a religion a lot of people consider a cult or evil was the religion they were supposed to believe in? What if there is some even worse true religion no one has ever practiced and billions of people will actually burn in hell for believing in God and not being an incredibly evil individual? Everyone merely assumes they are doing it right, if there even is a higher power and afterlife. Lucifer or something worse than him could actually be the all-powerful creator being.

im pretty sure life on earth did not just emerge on its own and homo sapiens & homo erectus would have gone extinct if it wasnt for them

and beings that labor to create life like us would most likely not have a nefarious purpose because the complexity of building such life is...so vast

we already see from our own experiences as humans over the last 1,000 years how our morality has arguably improved and is still improving

once we can do the same kinds of terraforming/engineering, why wouldnt we be saints with fledgling species we create? for example veganism is also rising in popularity rapidly because of the moral arguments which are solid

so the trends are undeniable and the example we do see (in homo sapiens) is a good data point for making a bet on whether or not those beings are good vs evil

my bet is on good ;)

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hockeybub89 posted...

What if Satanism is the correct religion?

It's "correct" if you want to burn in hell for eternity, I suppose. I'll be chilling in Heaven tho.
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If only there were some way of comparing religions to find out which is most likely to be correct
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pure_temper posted...

what about my answer? That it doesnt matter because if the universe itself is eternal, we would definitely have beings out there that have existed for billions if not trillions of years

for example were putting probes into deep space now and know a thing or two about terraforming and imo have most likely made it beyond the great filter

were not even a Type 1 civilization and we can do all this

if the universe is eternal and life on earth was arbitrary, 0% probability it only happened once lol

Well, from what we know the universe is only billions of years old so far and from what I remember are theories that it will eventually stop expanding and turn back in on it self? I don't remember much about it, or if any actual evidence though.

And somewhere out there? Almost certainly life in some form. As for what form? Who knows. Maybe they never evolved enough, maybe they got wiped out. Maybe the nuked themselves to oblivion. Maybe they are just so far away, we'll both die out before advancing enough to find each other.

Which really only adds to the evidence that a human centric deity is less likely, and even less relevant to our existence. We're just a tiny speck in the grand cosmos of existence and may as well treat us as we see ants or something else insignificant.

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hockeybub89 posted...

I mean, what if a religion a lot of people consider a cult or evil was the religion they were supposed to believe in? What if there is some even worse true religion no one has ever practiced and billions of people will actually burn in hell for believing in God and not being an incredibly evil individual? Everyone merely assumes they are doing it right, if there even is a higher power and afterlife. Lucifer or something worse than him could actually be the all-powerful creator being.

Power of faith relies on some of the natural occurences of life - Lucifer could not be the all-powerful because his state of nature involves the trained behaviors bred from the flesh/original sin. Murdering someone goes against the principles of man, the same as it would be discriminating against anyone (racism, sexual orientation, etc) in life.

These things are not open for debate - you probably call this being closed minded but I think the religious just don't bother to consult some imaginary declaration of paper written by man that allows these facts such as a persons right to live free and with opportunity to be challenged and question because of some logical clause that allows this

What you're really saying by asking that question to a religious person is do you think the construct of crime itself, the amalgam of people who cherish death, the being responsible for Christians turning over to holding 'god hates f***' signs is actually our God

I wouldn't be able to make sense of that or reconcile that tbh

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Funkydog posted...

Well, from what we know the universe is only billions of years old so far and from what I remember are theories that it will eventually stop expanding and turn back in on it self? I don't remember much about it, or if any actual evidence though.

And somewhere out there? Almost certainly life in some form. As for what form? Who knows. Maybe they never evolved enough, maybe they got wiped out. Maybe the nuked themselves to oblivion. Maybe they are just so far away, we'll both die out before advancing enough to find each other.

Which really only adds to the evidence that a human centric deity is less likely, and even less relevant to our existence. We're just a tiny speck in the grand cosmos of existence and may as well treat us as we see ants or something else insignificant.

the universe is so big and if it is eternal, the fact that we emerged arbitrarily would suggest high probability that others did too. Id say 100% probability if its eternal and as huge as we think it is.

i dont think people think God is human-centric, just that God has interest in humans and what happens to us

im of the view that there are N forms of life way more intelligent than us and they most likely are part of a federation of sorts, like in Star Trek

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RedJackson posted...

What you're really saying by asking that question to a religious person is do you think the construct of crime itself, the amalgam of people who cherish death, the being responsible for Christians turning over to holding 'god hates f***' signs is actually our God

I wouldn't be able to make sense of that or reconcile that tbh

i honestly believe those people worship Lucifer, whether they admit it or not

because the words of Jesus in their entirety are very simple and clear and he would not do what those ppl do. In fact the Pharisees did that kind of stuff and Jesus rebuked them

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hockeybub89 posted...

What if Scientology is the correct religion?

You die then you wake up on a cold steel operating table with a blinding white light in your face. The light is moved and you see Tom Cruise with scalpel in hand operating on your body in order to present you to Lord Xenu.

This is what I hope happens when I die
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