Current Events > I don't understand the conservative obsession with abortion.

(+) Yeah! (+)

eston posted...

paid for a funeral with EBT cards lol

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I believe it's murder because it is. And I'd be a little less peeved about it if people called it what it was.

There's just no valid argument to be made to the contrary:

A: If you claim the fetus isn't alive, then you're believing in the reanimation of dead matter.

B: If you claim it isn't human, then you're admitting we can shift between different species.

C: If you claim it isn't fully developed, then you're stating that there's a physical/mental threshold that one must meet in order to be entitled to human rights.

You have to pick one.


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There's a large number of single-issue voters on the matter, and Republican politicians take advantage of it as a wedge issue to sucker those people into electing them.
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

There's a large number of single-issue voters on the matter, and Republican politicians take advantage of it as a wedge issue to sucker those people into electing them.

People are stupid

On_The_Edge posted...

And that that concern has nothing to do with controlling women's bodies but everything to do with protection for what they perceive to be a full human being worthy of protection?

They're not that concerned about it, considering that--as mentioned ITT--they are also against social programs that help these mothers take care of their kids.

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Human life only matters until it's born then it can figure out its own problems

After actually having a baby, I can say, no one should be forced to do this. Not in any way, shape or form.
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This is a false debate.

The real debate is why new lives aren't automatically born into $1 million net north. We're in 2021 god dammit. Time to put a wealth tax on the billionaire class. 20% $10 billion or higher, so we can start building towards a more civilized society. Every adult could be getting $13,500 UBI in under 10 years if we start paying attention and voting the right way. And free college, advanced tech. No reason then for people to keep caring about this debate anymore. Whoever wants kids will have them, whoever does not will not.

https://moores.samaltman.com/

For a summary of the above:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/17/openais-altman-ai-will-make-wealth-to-pay-all-adults-13500-a-year.html

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Because they want to control women and punish them for having sex. We know it has nothing to do with being pro-life as they claim since they have no issue with capital punishment, or people getting killed by police. Hell, they didn't even care when those MAGA douchebags killed an officer with an American Flag at the Capitol.

Wait until they find out the only time abortion is mentioned in the bible is when it gives instructions on how to perform one. Oof.

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I find it funny that abortion is legal and assisted suicide is not.

One is not the persons choice and the other is

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Of all the conservative social issues abortion is one of the only ones I actually understand where they're coming from. I don't agree with them but I get it.

They literally see it as killing babies. You can disagree with that but none the less that's how they see it.

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On_The_Edge posted...

It's absolutely ridiculous how out of touch some of you are with the views of others. Do you even know any conservatives? Pro-life has absolutely nothing to do with control or hatred of women. It has everything to do with a belief that the unborn is fully human and made in the image of God.

Yes people actually believe that. And ask yourself, if you believed that, if you thought the unborn was truly human and worthy of rights and protection, could you then perhaps understand why someone might be concerned about it? And that that concern has nothing to do with controlling women's bodies but everything to do with protection for what they perceive to be a full human being worthy of protection?

This.
To think that the smarmy assholes in this topic probably think that they're being intelligent and rational.


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sutree posted...

This.
To think that the smarmy assholes in this topic probably think that they're being intelligent and rational.

Unfortunately it's something that's way too common. Saying you have no idea why the other side thinks the way they do means you lack the perspective to even understand why you think they way you do. You're basically advertising that your an ideologue that isn't even interested in what the other side thinks.

It's extremely intellectionally lazy

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Would we prefer the government forcing women to carry pregnancies to term before they handed the babies to the state?
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MutantJohn posted...

Would we prefer the government forcing women to carry pregnancies to term before they handed the babies to the state?

boom got'em

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Solid Snake07 posted...

Unfortunately it's something that's way too common. Saying you have no idea why the other side thinks the way they do means you lack the perspective to even understand why you think they way you do. You're basically advertising that your an ideologue that isn't even interested in what the other side thinks.

It's extremely intellectionally lazy

And these people would hate when conservatives say something like "liberals are all just lazy people who want free money."

But they lack the modicum of critical thinking to realize that they themselves do the same thing.

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#NoChildLeftBehind

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On_The_Edge posted...

It's absolutely ridiculous how out of touch some of you are with the views of others. Do you even know any conservatives? Pro-life has absolutely nothing to do with control or hatred of women. It has everything to do with a belief that the unborn is fully human and made in the image of God.

Yes people actually believe that. And ask yourself, if you believed that, if you thought the unborn was truly human and worthy of rights and protection, could you then perhaps understand why someone might be concerned about it? And that that concern has nothing to do with controlling women's bodies but everything to do with protection for what they perceive to be a full human being worthy of protection?

Problem with this is that we live in a real, complicated world where people have sex before they're ready to have kids. And this puts an undue pressure on women considering how having a baby affects nearly every aspect of their lives in debilitating, potentially life-threatening ways.

Then these "pro-life" politicians go around defunding PP (which provides invaluable healthcare to expectant mothers), gutting sex education programs, limiting or flat-out eliminating contraceptives, all things to ensure people can have sex without having a baby. So the message seems pretty clear: they don't want women having sex until they're married and have a husband providing for them. Which is control.

CalypsoDoom posted...

Idk about yall but I'm on my third abortion this week
Shit is clearly what all the cool kids do /s

Its literally what Republican think and peddle to the brainless masses

Abortion should always be legal.

youd think the majority of the scientific community, doctors, the WHO, etc might convince some people but nah, still just dumbass nonsense. Prolifers legitimately have no idea what theyre talking about. Fetuses arent people. Its just a fact.

ThanksUglyGod posted...

So the message seems pretty clear: they don't want women having sex until they're married and have a husband providing for them. Which is control.

There's also very strictly punishing one the party that takes the most risk in an action that requires at least two individuals. And the people taking the smallest risk have no consequences, which encourages that action to continue.

Its 100% about control

VideoboysaysCube posted...

I believe it's murder because it is. And I'd be a little less peeved about it if people called it what it was.

There's just no valid argument to be made to the contrary:

A: If you claim the fetus isn't alive, then you're believing in the reanimation of dead matter.

B: If you claim it isn't human, then you're admitting we can shift between different species.

C: If you claim it isn't fully developed, then you're stating that there's a physical/mental threshold that one must meet in order to be entitled to human rights.

You have to pick one.

If I could have saved someone's life by donating a lung to them, and I chose not to do so, have I committed murder?

ColZach posted...

Abortion should always be legal.

youd think the majority of the scientific community, doctors, the WHO, etc might convince some people but nah, still just dumbass nonsense. Prolifers legitimately have no idea what theyre talking about. Fetuses arent people. Its just a fact.

"My opinion on where life begins is scientific fact"

Lol

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Solid Snake07 posted...

"My opinion on where life begins is scientific fact"

Lol

this but non ironically

it doesnt matter that it hurts your feelings, we can quantify brain activity and heart development. This shit matters. Treating women like livestock is fucking disgusting.

ColZach posted...

this but non ironically

it doesnt matter that it hurts your feelings, we can quantify brain activity and heart development. This shit matters. Treating women like livestock is fucking disgusting.

Just because you've created your personal parameters of where you think life begins doesn't make it a fact. Just means that's where you personally think life begins.

Which is fine, but that's an opinion

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And thankfully laws agree with that opinion for now

republicans will never actually do anything about it, because its their hey vote for us button

ColZach posted...

this but non ironically

it doesnt matter that it hurts your feelings, we can quantify brain activity and heart development. This shit matters. Treating women like livestock is fucking disgusting.

So you agree there is a point in gestation where abortion shouldn't be legal?

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sutree posted...

So you agree there is a point in gestation where abortion shouldn't be legal?

in a perfect world where I could curate the situation exactly, yes.

ColZach posted...

And thankfully laws agree with that opinion for now

republicans will never actually do anything about it, because its their hey vote for us button

I'm pro choice, I'm just saying. Stating your opinion as irrefutable fact is a bad look.

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Solid Snake07 posted...

I'm pro choice, I'm just saying. Stating your opinion as irrefutable fact is a bad look.

its an irrefutable fact that the majority of the scientific community is also pro choice

edit: and its also a fact that a fetus is not a person legally

Its control. You can see some conservatives in this topic already getting triggered about it but thats what it is.

the same people who believe its a person dont give two shits if that baby dies 2 weeks after its born. Theyll even cite shit like welfare queens to disregard and social safety nets in the same conversation they say anti-abortion is wrong.

theres no consistency or logic. Youre either anti-abortion or youre anti-welfare. Not both, they are incompatible beliefs.

But lets see the stupid shit someones bound to say about how this is wrong.

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ColZach posted...

in a perfect world where I could curate the situation exactly, yes.

Okay, then you're basically against the mainstream Democractic Party position and would be considered a bigot by many people.

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sutree posted...

Okay, then you're basically against the mainstream Democractic Party position and would be considered a bigot by many people.

most true liberals are pretty ignorant so Im not surprised.

as it stands abortion should be legal up until birth. My fantasy scenario exists in a world with M4A.

ColZach posted...

its an irrefutable fact that the majority of the scientific community is also pro choice

edit: and its also a fact that a fetus is not a person legally

Lol, okay? The scientific community is entitled to their opinion. I would think the majority also have the good sense to be able to differentiate between scientific fact and an opinion.

Saying brain development doesn't begin till the the end of the first trimester is a fact. Saying that's where a fetus has rights is an opinion.

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if i understood the science correctly, nothing conscious is ever aborted.

it's unconscious. no memories, no pain. no capacity for these.

so how could it be unlawful or wrong? just a procedure to halt a process, like with pills but more invasive as a last resort.

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I wouldnt even call that a fact given that the brain development that actually matters all occurs in the third trimester

that reminds me of the prolifers who claim the heart is beating at 5 weeks when its not.

ColZach posted...

I wouldnt even call that a fact given that the brain development that actually matters all occurs in the third trimester

that reminds me of the prolifers who claim the heart is beating at 5 weeks when its not.

The point is it's an opinion if any of that matters to you personally. Not to flex pregnancy development knowledge

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Unless prolifers agree to provide for children aka what progressives want, all these talk about abortion is just simple platitudes.

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VideoboysaysCube posted...

C: If you claim it isn't fully developed, then you're stating that there's a physical/mental threshold that one must meet in order to be entitled to human rights.

like all people who have actually given the subject more than a moment's thought, i pick this one. the specific human right in question is 'making life-or-death medical decisions.'

breathing independently is my threshold, which is why we give power of attorney to family members when we are incapacitated so thoroughly that we cannot make life or death medical decisions for ourselves because we're on a ventilator or some other form of life support.

while in this state, a person generally cannot make the call to take them off and let them die. that's up to family.

just like the fetus.

Solid Snake07 posted...

Just because you've created your personal parameters of where you think life begins doesn't make it a fact. Just means that's where you personally think life begins.

Which is fine, but that's an opinion

sure

and the only opinion that truly matters is that of the mother, because she's the family member making medical choices for her child

and she's the one who has to live with the guilt of ending a pregnancy. there's more than enough of that being inflicted by her unto herself, we don't need to pile on.

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Sackgurl posted...

sure

and the only opinion that truly matters is that of the mother, because she's the family member making medical choices for her child

and she's the one who has to live with the guilt of ending a pregnancy. there's more than enough of that being inflicted by her unto herself, we don't need to pile on.

I agree with you. But if I thought this fetus had rights upon insemination I may not.

I don't think that, but it's not impossibly alien to me to understand why someone would think that.

I don't particularly like the idea of abortion but I dislike the idea of unwanted and unsupported children being brought into this world more. Is a much lesser evil to me. I'm far more annoyed by the religious rights stance against contraception that would hopefully prevent this moral conflict all together in many cases.

But that's just my opinion

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the crossover of 'pro lifer' and 'terry schiavo nutjob' does seem pretty consistent


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Catholics.

It's just old dogma from the middle ages when more babies meant more money for the church. Conservatives cling to it because they're fucking idiots.

My favorite are pro-life military wives. You're pro-life but you're supporting a murderer.

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I actually don't think any supporter of pro-choice denies that it's baby murder.

I can only speak for myself but I personally see abortion as the most merciful option in those scenarios.

I think being born just to suffer is worse than not ever being born at all.

It's a sad statement but I'll be pro-choice until our society can adequately provide for all people.

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I wonder how this system would work.

Abortion made illegal and impossible, but those who are pro-life have to be registered to be able to take care of a random unwanted baby. It would be like a baby lottery. They would have to be responsible for 18 years with a random baby. I wonder how many pro-life people would all of a sudden change.

Or better yet, with technology of incubating mice for weeks without a womb showing the possible future qith humans.. Imagine if pro-life including all males who are pro-life have to attach a fetus to their body for nurtioning. It would be like a baby lottery again. I haven't even played Death Stranding, but something like I saw in the trailer.

wesastro911 posted...

I wonder how this system would work.

Abortion made illegal and impossible, but those who are pro-life have to be registered to be able to take care of a random unwanted baby. It would be like a baby lottery. I wonder how many pro-life people would all of a sudden change.

Pro lifers have proven time and again that they do not care about a baby after its born

Its weird because both sides are actually anti-abortion. I can understand from the pro-lifers perspective, but in reality if we were to outlaw abortions the consequences would be catastrophic vs if we keep abortion legal. We saw this in Texas where places that got rid of planned parenthood saw a major increase in unwanted pregnancies. I think the worst part about pro-lifers is that the majority of them are also against contraception's and birth control pills. I agree that abstinence is the preferred way, but reality is people are going to get it on regardless what you teach in your anti-sex classes. We're humans, sex is part of our biology but only the pro-choice side is actually bringing stuff that works in reality.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Weve reached the science doesnt matter when it comes to medical procedures part of the abortion debate.

The only debate I'm having is about the difference between an opinion and a fact

But thanks for jumping in late and saying something stupid because you lack context yet again

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VideoboysaysCube posted...

I believe it's murder because it is. And I'd be a little less peeved about it if people called it what it was.

Abortion is indisputably not murder.

VideoboysaysCube posted...

There's just no valid argument to be made to the contrary:

A: If you claim the fetus isn't alive, then you're believing in the reanimation of dead matter.

B: If you claim it isn't human, then you're admitting we can shift between different species.

C: If you claim it isn't fully developed, then you're stating that there's a physical/mental threshold that one must meet in order to be entitled to human rights.

You have to pick one.

D: The fetus has no inherent right to the womb and is removed at the will of the person who does have that right. Whether the fetus is alive, human, or not fully developed are immaterial to who actually has autonomy over the body it resides in.