Current Events > Independent report speaks of "Chinese genocide" of the Uighur

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Tyranthraxus posted...

I mean I'm not really sure what this has to do with things. Has wealth inequality not existed in every communist country ever dating all the way back to the Russia & the USSR? Or were none of those countries ever communist either?

No, only tankies think authoritarian state capitalism is communism. Literally no one else thinks that. It's literally like thinking the Nazis were socialist because they called themselves National Socialists. Or thinking North Korea is Democratic because they say they are. What you call something doesn't really matter. If I call a dog a cat, that doesn't mean it's actually a cat. Words have to have some kind of meaning.

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the whole notion of a "communist country" is an oxymoron. unless you somehow think that a society can be stateless and also be considered a country

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shockthemonkey posted...

Did the workers own the means of production?

No they didn't. Not ever. Sometimes there was a facade of ownership but that immediately broke down as soon as it challenged the government.

ssjevot posted...

No, only tankies think authoritarian state capitalism is communism. Literally no one else thinks that. It's literally like thinking the Nazis were socialist because they called themselves National Socialists. Or thinking North Korea is Democratic because they say they are. What you call something doesn't really matter. If I call a dog a cat, that doesn't mean it's actually a cat. Words have to have some kind of meaning.

I'm not using the Chinese definition of communism. I'm using the western version of it which would apply regardless of their name. Nor have I stated that they're communist because the party name is communist. In fact I've said explicitly they do not claim to be communist.

Just to form a base line here this is my definition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state

Also of note in that page:

Terms used by communist states include national-democratic, people's democratic, socialist-oriented and workers and peasants' states

As no one has ever implemented full on communism I don't see why a communist / socialist government can't also include elements of capitalism. That's the only way it's ever existed in history anyway.

Vietnam has recently acknowledged a mercantile class saying that even the bourgeoisie are deserving of equal socialist privileges which is kind of unorthodox but not completely opposed to Marx & Lenin's philosophies.


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Not sure what the point of calling something communist is of it's just capitalism with a veneer of paint.

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averagejoel posted...

the whole notion of a "communist country" is an oxymoron. unless you somehow think that a society can be stateless and also be considered a country

If the USSR wasnt really communist why do you feel the need to do things like deny the Holodomor to defend them?

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I get a little hard at the idea of the world joining together and forcing the CCP out of China, but that's wishful thinking.

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hockeybub89 posted...

I get a little hard at the idea of the world joining together and forcing the CCP out of China, but that's wishful thinking.

Why would the nuclear apocalypse get you hard?

hockeybub89 posted...

I get a little hard at the idea of the world joining together and forcing the CCP out of China, but that's wishful thinking.

You know we can also just like.... Use diplomacy to make them stop. Offer to pull the Uyghurs out. Give them passports that say they can never come to China again. We don't have to stop death with more death and we don't have to alienate a global ally because of the actions of a few people in their Government.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

You know we can also just like.... Use diplomacy to make them stop. Offer to pull the Uyghurs out. Give them passports that say they can never come to China again. We don't have to stop death with more death and we don't have to alienate a global ally because of the actions of a few people in their Government.

That suggests China would be happy with the Uighurs leaving. They absolutely wouldn't.

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DEKMStephens posted...

That suggests China would be happy with the Uighurs leaving. They absolutely wouldn't.

I don't know. Nobody has ever even asked them. I'm sure they will take the path of least resistance and most money at the end of the day.

OTOH Venezuela offered to take our Guantanamo prisoners and we know how that turned out.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

I don't know. Nobody has ever even asked them. I'm sure they will take the path of least resistance and most money at the end of the day.

OTOH Venezuela offered to take our Guantanamo prisoners and we know how that turned out.

We kinda do know that, they got mad af when the UK offered Hong Kongers citizenship. It is straight up not even an option on the table any more so than the other hypotheticals people have discussed

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Tyranthraxus posted...

You know we can also just like.... Use diplomacy to make them stop. Offer to pull the Uyghurs out. Give them passports that say they can never come to China again. We don't have to stop death with more death and we don't have to alienate a global ally because of the actions of a few people in their Government.

You are aware they have actively fought against the UK's efforts to give Hong Kongers citizenship right? Most recently by outright refusing to recognize the British Overseas National passport as a travel document. Not that I support military intervention in any form, but if you think the goal of a cultural genocide is to just get rid of the people you don't grasp the end goal. Cultural genocide were used against Native peoples throughout the US and it's many territories and they didn't kill locals. They banned their languages and cultural practices (we have detailed documentation of some of these like Guam, where the US government literally burned dictionaries). Imperial Japan did similar things in Hokkaido, Okinawa, and (unsuccessfully) in Korea. The goal was never to eliminate the people, but to eliminate their culture so the people could be used as part of the empire. That is what China has been doing in Tibet, and is doing to Uyghurs, Mongolians, and most other minority language and ethnic groups in China. The goal isn't to kill them, it's to kill their culture and use them as tools for their empire.

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I actually didn't know the UK offered Hong Kong citizenship. I missed that one somehow. Though I'd get why they would be kinda pissed about it since it was a British territory until relatively recently so that kinda sounds like another attempt to annex it (because by golly gee if anyone's going to annex it, it's going to be China)

I still doubt there's no way to end this peacefully. I find it hard to reconcile genocide with assimilation so there must be something that can be offered to make them stop.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

the actions of a few people in their Government.

If you think what's happening to the Uighur is this, please go back and read the beginning of this topic, and the excerpts from the report I posted

Downplaying this genocide doesn't do anyone any favours
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teep_ posted...

If you think what's happening to the Uighur is this, please go back and read the beginning of this topic, and the excerpts from the report I posted

Downplaying this genocide doesn't do anyone any favours

I'm not downplaying the genocide. It's genocide. It's not just genocide but state-backed genocide. Full stop.

But it's still absurd to claim everyone in China supports this.

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We know for a fact many people in China don't support it:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/08/bingeing-free-expression-popularity-of-clubhouse-app-soars-in-china

The government banned the app very quickly after people in China used it to talk about Taiwan, Hong Kong, and the genocide. I also know first hand many people in my own family are not happy about one or more of those issues, but they cannot talk about it publicly because of the political environment. You cannot express dissenting political opinions in China.

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Look up Palestine and how the US supports that genocide

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I'm not saying everyone in China supports it

Nor am I saying one or two people in China' government support it and everyone else are unwilling participants, which is what I feel you're saying with that "a few" statement
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ncsonic posted...

Look up Palestine and how the US supports that genocide

You can oppose multiple genocides at once and think both China and the US are bad. Though that's a weird one to bring up because China also supports Israel. I'm not sure how tankies justify that one, but I would like to see them try.

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Interesting how ncsonic feels the need to deflect from this every time it's brought up

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teep_ posted...

I'm not saying everyone in China supports it

Nor am I saying one or two people in China' government support it and everyone else are unwilling participants, which is what I feel you're saying with that "a few" statement

You are being fucking obtuse on purpose if you're interpreting my statement as "one or two people are conducting genocide"

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Phynaster posted...

Interesting how ncsonic feels the need to deflect from this every time it's brought up

Honestly it's more interesting he doesn't realize how close Israel and China are. It's like an attempt at a whataboutism gotcha not realizing they are very close economically and cooperate militarily as well.

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That's the point really. There's no country that doesn't have economic dealings with China. And by the argument and definition, because the United States trades with China they're support the Uighur camps. And that's the point really, most of Israel military is funded largely by America. Our real enemy is Russia hacking into our infrastructure. Not China.

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ncsonic posted...

That's the point really. There's no country that doesn't have economic dealings with China. And by the argument and definition, because the United States trades with China they're support the Uighur camps. And that's the point really, most of Israel military is funded largely by America. Our real enemy is Russia hacking into our infrastructure. Not China.

China is hacking America on the regular. But everyone just kinda shrugs because they want iPhones.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

teep_ posted...

I'm not saying everyone in China supports it

Nor am I saying one or two people in China' government support it and everyone else are unwilling participants, which is what I feel you're saying with that "a few" statement

You are being fucking obtuse on purpose if you're interpreting my statement as "one or two people are conducting genocide"

Nah, just overly literally-minded. To me it genuinely sounded like you were implying that a few people at the top were all for it, and everyone else was forced into it/"merely following orders". Apologies!
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Tyranthraxus posted...

You know we can also just like.... Use diplomacy to make them stop. Offer to pull the Uyghurs out. Give them passports that say they can never come to China again. We don't have to stop death with more death and we don't have to alienate a global ally because of the actions of a few people in their Government.

Or we can use diplomacy to gain allies and use trade agreements and such to sweat the CCP out of power and turn the people against them.

This is like saying we should use diplomacy and ask Saudi Arabia to let us take their LGBT population, rather than lose a global ally. Would Hitler have been a good ally if he let us take in the non-Aryans?

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hockeybub89 posted...

Or we can use diplomacy to gain allies and use trade agreements and such to sweat the CCP out of power and turn the people against them.

This is like saying we should use diplomacy and ask Saudi Arabia to let us take their LGBT population, rather than lose a global ally. Would Hitler have been a good ally if he let us take in the non-Aryans?

Hitler is not a comparable case as Hitler's style of governing was to delegate as much shit off as possible. Hitler said "go do Ethnic cleansing" and some Nazis chose to interpret this as forced deportation. Others chose to interpret this as just run around shooting people. And others still chose to interpret it as build gas chambers.

So not only was "just following orders" defense rejected at Nuremberg, they weren't even really following orders. No one ordered them to do those things.

By contrast in China there's an organized coordinated effort to do something very specific with a specific set of orders. There must be something that can be done to get them to stop.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Hitler is not a comparable case as Hitler's style of governing was to delegate as much shit off as possible. Hitler said "go do Ethnic cleansing" and some Nazis chose to interpret this as forced deportation. Others chose to interpret this as just run around shooting people. And others still chose to interpret it as build gas chambers.

So not only was "just following orders" defense rejected at Nuremberg, they weren't even really following orders. No one ordered them to do those things.

By contrast in China there's an organized coordinated effort to do something very specific with a specific set of orders. There must be something that can be done to get them to stop.

Yeah, the CCP can be removed from power.

As for Hitler not being direct, would removing non-Aryans from Germany not have made "Go do ethnic cleansing" unnecessary, regardless of how a Nazi might have interpreted it? You said we should take the Uyghurs out of China as if that solves the problem. Removing the oppressed does not remove the oppressors and is kind of doing the work for them. They're not animals. They're human beings doing shitty things. Working with them is complicity. "China, can you please keep your oppression and human rights violations more subtle and plausibly deniable? It's hurting our relationship!"

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What a weird fucking take.

"I'm sure a dictatorship committing genocide would stop if asked in the right way"

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Tyranthraxus post coming dangerously close to some particular gross conspiracy theories

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Funkydog posted...

What a weird fucking take.

"I'm sure a dictatorship committing genocide would stop if asked in the right way"

Yeah well sorry I don't support gunning down the entire CCP just to stop this.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Yeah well sorry I don't support gunning down the entire CCP just to stop this.

Not wanting to go to war with China is one thing.

What you're doing is about a hundred steps after that.

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Funkydog posted...

Not wanting to go to war with China is one thing.

What you're doing is about a hundred steps after that.

If you're not going to resolve it with war and you're not going to resolve it with diplomacy then how are you going to resolve it?

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the Uighur will have to resist. that will bring people's attention to them. the outside world is not going to take it upon themselves to rescue them. the Uighur must make themselves worthy of it.

CommonGrackle posted...

the Uighur will have to resist. that will bring people's attention to them. the outside world is not going to take it upon themselves to rescue them. the Uighur must make themselves worthy of it.

Yeah how about we just not say it's the fault of genocide victims for not resisting the genocide strongly enough.

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CommonGrackle posted...

the Uighur will have to resist. that will bring people's attention to them. the outside world is not going to take it upon themselves to rescue them. the Uighur must make themselves worthy of it.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

If you're not going to resolve it with war and you're not going to resolve it with diplomacy then how are you going to resolve it?

If you think China will stop through diplomacy I have a bridge or ten to sell you. They have no interest in stopping. They are a dictatorship and they will force their will on everyone in their grasp. Hong Kong, the Uyghur or anyone else are not going to be left alone as to do so threatens the power they have over their people and those they want to oppress.

They have to keep it up and keep doing it as to relent gives encouragement to others to resist and get international support.

Ultimately their is no real solution to this mess unless China collapses or suffers a massive uprising as no one is going to go with war with them.

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By the time it takes for the international community to put enough economic pressure on China to cause a collapse the genocide will have already ended because there won't be any Uyghurs left to kill or "reeducate"

And a Chinese rebellion is just not going to happen after what they did in HK.

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You are correct.

How exactly are you hoping to "persuade" a dictatorship that has shown less than 0% of changing its many other atrocities from diplomacy?

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Oh cool didn't know Machete was on board with mass organ harvesting, labor camps, and forced sterilization

Dope. Just great.

Fucking sarcasm, obviously.

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Chewtarch posted...

Oh cool didn't know Machete was on board with mass organ harvesting, labor camps, and forced sterilization

Dope. Just great.

Fucking sarcasm, obviously.

people call him machetankie nowadays because of that


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Chewtarch posted...

Oh cool didn't know Machete was on board with mass organ harvesting, labor camps, and forced sterilization

Dope. Just great.

Fucking sarcasm, obviously.

Hes gone from Shablagoo doesnt know what hes saying, ill talk to him and hell realize the error of his ways to denying the genocide right alongside his buddy in the space of like 2 weeks lol

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Phynaster posted...

Hes gone from Shablagoo doesnt know what hes saying, ill talk to him and hell realize the error of his ways to denying the genocide right alongside his buddy in the space of like 2 weeks lol

legitimate whiplash

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Phynaster posted...

Hes gone from Shablagoo doesnt know what hes saying, ill talk to him and hell realize the error of his ways to denying the genocide right alongside his buddy in the space of like 2 weeks lol

maybe he talked to him and he gave him a Fresca and talked to him about the collective?

maybe he gave him a job at the CCP too?

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Phynaster posted...

Hes gone from Shablagoo doesnt know what hes saying, ill talk to him and hell realize the error of his ways to denying the genocide right alongside his buddy in the space of like 2 weeks lol

lol wut when did this happen? Was it in this very topic?

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man is it really so hard to ask people not to subscribe to alt-right or tankie ideas? wtf people come on, think logically.

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Funkydog posted...

You are correct.

How exactly are you hoping to "persuade" a dictatorship that has shown less than 0% of changing its many other atrocities from diplomacy?

IMO a first step would be to remove the economic incentive, i.e., stop corporations from exploiting the situation for profit. Of course we can't be sure it would work but it feels like it would be worth it anyway

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David1988 posted...

lol wut when did this happen? Was it in this very topic?

When Shab got suspended for denying it about two weeks ago. Machete said he'd call him and he'd change his ways, then Machete had a meltdown and threatened to "disappear people" here and got two alts warned.

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we do need to build more shit everywhere else so yeah, that's a 2 for 1 bonus if we do that.

more domestic production (worker conditions and pay can be bolstered) and less $$ flowing into the Uyghur genocide

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Phynaster posted...

When Shab got suspended for denying it about two weeks ago. Machete said he'd call him and he'd change his ways, then Machete had a meltdown and threatened to "disappear people" here and got two alts warned.

I meant the part where you said hes denying the genocide right alongside his buddy. I was there for the topic youre talking about, it was hilarious, but I dont recall him also denying the genocide like Shab

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