Current Events > Zac Snyder defends the 'Martha' scene *Batman v Superman spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.themarysue.com/zack-snyder-batman-v-superman-martha-scene-holds-the-entire-movie-together/

When Batman is about to kill Superman, the Man of Steel gasps out, Save Martha. This triggers Batman to remember his own mother, also named Martha. Lois Lane then has to Wiki explain this connection and the foes become bros, teaming up to rescue the symbolic and actual mother.

It has been memed to death for being so awkwardly handled. Yet, Snyder stands by the scene.
I mean, its 100% the lynchpin that holds the entire movie together, Snyder said. I think its indicative of the way that Batman v Superman was received that its central tenet was sort of belittled and made fun of. [] I personally think it is like this beautiful and incredibly symmetrical idea that it completely finishes it as a concept.

Its funny, because we, Chris Terrio and I, we did reach that point in the movie, in our discussions we knew how to get them to fight, right? But how do you get them to stop fighting? Snyder brings up.

Thats a tough one. And we sort of were just throwing down on their humanity and Batman realizes Superman has humanity, hes not just a creature, hes a man hes an alien, but he is as human as, in a lot of ways, hes more human than him, right? Hes sort of embraced all the good parts of the human race, and so Batmans able to sort of see, in a lot of ways, a thing that he is not. And I think that that was how we started to talk about it.

But why did he say that name?!

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"you're a big guy"
"for martha"

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> Kong defeats Godzilla

Godzilla: "Save... Mothra!"
Kong: "Why did you say that name???"

FortuneCookie posted...

> Kong defeats Godzilla

Godzilla: "Save... Mothra!"
Kong: "Why did you say that name???"

XD

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RedWhiteBlue posted...

DARMIK

WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!!!!

caps

:O

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Worst director of all time

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Does anyone know if he defended the jar of piss

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Darmik posted...

Does anyone know if he defended the jar of piss

Jar of piss was a great scene though and totally something lex Luthor would do

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Do you bleed?

You will.

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CinemaWins had a good point regarding this.

https://youtu.be/Y5S7rjUbC14?t=575

"Batman does not spare Superman because their mothers share the same name. Batman has spent 18 months obsessing over killing this alien who can destroy the Earth. It isn't until Superman uses the name that the alien becomes humanized. At first, Batman becomes even MORE enraged because he thinks it's another trick. Once he realizes it's Clark's mom's name he starts to understand that maybe they're not so different. He never considered the evil alien had a human mother or let alone would be willing to die for her. Bruce couldn't save his mother. No matter how many goons Batman brands, he was a helpless kid when she was killed just like Clark is now. He'll never be able to bring his Martha back. Now he has an opportunity for redemption. It literally has nothing to do with their mothers having the same name, that was just the spark(that you can see snapping Bruce out of his kill rage) that showed him Superman wasn't pure evil. With potentially his last breath he asked his killer to save someone else. There's no argument. It's not confusing. It's not grasping at straws. It's in the narrative. It's the entire reason we were shown the murders of the Waynes one more time. This moment goes down as one of the biggest problems amongst the dissenters, when it's actually one of the most emotionally stirring and theme appropriate scenes if you're paying attention."

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au_gold posted...

Do you bleed?

You will.

You know he pretty much self plagiarized that scene out of 300.

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Malcrasternus posted...

CinemaWins had a good point regarding this.

https://youtu.be/Y5S7rjUbC14?t=575

"Batman does not spare Superman because their mothers share the same name. Batman has spent 18 months obsessing over killing this alien who can destroy the Earth. It isn't until Superman uses the name that the alien becomes humanized. At first, Batman becomes even MORE enraged because he thinks it's another trick. Once he realizes it's Clark's mom's name he starts to understand that maybe they're not so different. He never considered the evil alien had a human mother or let alone would be willing to die for her. Bruce couldn't save his mother. No matter how many goons Batman brands, he was a helpless kid when she was killed just like Clark is now. He'll never be able to bring his Martha back. Now he has an opportunity for redemption. It literally has nothing to do with their mothers having the same name, that was just the spark(that you can see snapping Bruce out of his kill rage) that showed him Superman wasn't pure evil. With potentially his last breath he asked his killer to save someone else. There's no argument. It's not confusing. It's not grasping at straws. It's in the narrative. It's the entire reason we were shown the murders of the Waynes one more time. This moment goes down as one of the biggest problems amongst the dissenters, when it's actually one of the most emotionally stirring and theme appropriate scenes if you're paying attention."

lol people understood the reasoning fine. People just think it's cheesy and ham-fisted. For one it requires Superman saying "Save Martha" instead of "Save my Mom" like a normal person. Then Lois needs to interrupt the scene to explain it. Everything about it is delivered in the most cheesy and hilarious way.

You can't just judge the scene based on intentions. It's not exactly hard to build up to Batman empathizing with Superman through his own personal tragedy and that resolving the conflict. But the execution was poor. Just like any other attempts at being emotionally stirring from the movie.

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Yeah, it's like you order a pizza and it's delivered to you upside down on a trashcan lid. The product is fine, it's just how they got it to you.

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The thing that makes it hilarious is that "I lost my Mom and I'll make sure you won't lose yours" is a pretty straightforward thing to depict. But because they were so focused on the name it's more like "I lost my Martha and I'll make sure you won't lose yours" which is just hilarious. Your parents are typically the most important people in your life who you basically never refer to by their first names.

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It's so hilarious I kinda love it now. But even having enjoyed the movie that was a mind boggling thing to include cuz its undeniably ridiculous

It's one of the shittiest things I've ever seen and it never should've been put on film.

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Darmik posted...

lol people understood the reasoning fine.

Seeing as people in this very topic are memeing it up, can't say that's the general consensus, lol

Darmik posted...

People just think it's cheesy and ham-fisted.

Agreed. Movie was way too bloated.
Darmik posted...

For one it requires Superman saying "Save Martha" instead of "Save my Mom" like a normal person. Then Lois needs to interrupt the scene to explain it.

I can't fully remember the movie the moment, but Bruce had no idea the alien he has pinned under his foot had any familial ties to Earth. By giving him a name it gives the world's greatest detective a lead, as opposed to just hearing an alien say, "save my mom pls k thanks gonna do a big dead now," and Lois is there to be the, not currently dying to a glowing rock voice of reason, on his behalf. I'm not going to defend this movie tooth and nail since it honestly doesn't deserve it, but to me at least, it made more sense for him to word it the way he did, to a total stranger bent on ending his life.

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I understood it well, but find it funny that he can't even explain it right. Reminds him of his own mother is the first grade version. If youre gonna defend your own movie, might as well use your sunday vocabulary.

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Pandamonic posted...

It's one of the shittiest things I've ever seen and it never should've been put on film.

Even George Lucas thinks he's an idiot for coming up with that.

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Malcrasternus posted...

I can't fully remember the movie the moment, but Bruce had no idea the alien he has pinned under his foot had any familial ties to Earth. By giving him a name it gives the world's greatest detective a lead, as opposed to just hearing an alien say, "save my mom pls k thanks gonna do a big dead now," and Lois is there to be the, not currently dying to a glowing rock voice of reason, on his behalf. I'm not going to defend this movie tooth and nail since it honestly doesn't deserve it, but to me at least, it made more sense for him to word it the way he did, to a total stranger bent on ending his life.

He didn't give him a lead. Look at how it goes down.

Batman : [suffocating Superman with his foot on his throat] You were never a god. You were never even a man!
Superman : [hardly breathing] You're letting them kill Martha...
Batman : What does that mean? Why did you say that name?
Superman : Find him... Save Martha...
Batman : Why did you say that name? Martha? Why did you say that name? WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?
Lois Lane : [enters running] It's his mother's name! It's his mother's name.

He doesn't even give the name Martha Kent as a lead. Batman is confused, doesn't know what he's talking about and gets more angry so Lois can walk in and explain it's his Mom. It's so clunky.

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The scene was kinda bad but I at least understood it. Superman crying out to save his mother humanized superman to batman. Their mother having the same name was just a convienient way for batman to stop and question it. Now if they made their names the same just for that it would be ridiculous but their names have been established for a long time.

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Darmik posted...

He doesn't even give the name Martha Kent as a lead. Batman is confused, doesn't know what he's talking about and gets more angry so Lois can walk in and explain it's his Mom. It's so clunky.

Right, because he has his foot on Supe's face, and a weapon he knows will kill him trained on his head. And even then, he asks a dying man, "Why did you say that name?"

There's no arguing the absolute deus ex machina Lois is, but a man who in his heart absolutely believes he's doing the right thing by killing the alien, just had his shit stirred. He's not getting angry because he's confused. He got angry because he heard his mother's name and thought it was some trick by Superman to throw him off guard.

As a fun hypothetical, would Superman himself saying that's his mom's name without Lois Deus Ex'ing the hell out of the moment make more sense? Or does it not actually matter who says it, and just that it's said at all that matters more in that scene?

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Dammit , dude just needs to take the L for that one .

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I think the biggest problem is that Zac just wrote himself into a corner with it.

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People just didn't get the scene

It wasn't because "they have da same name." it was because Batman stopped seeing Superman as an alien God creature/threat. But as a fellow human.

He saw that Superman had a mother and loved his mother. He was a person. No different to Batman.


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Malcrasternus posted...

Right, because he has his foot on Supe's face, and a weapon he knows will kill him trained on his head. And even then, he asks a dying man, "Why did you say that name?"

There's no arguing the absolute deus ex machina Lois is, but a man who in his heart absolutely believes he's doing the right thing by killing the alien, just had his shit stirred. He's not getting angry because he's confused. He got angry because he heard his mother's name and thought it was some trick by Superman to throw him off guard.

As a fun hypothetical, would Superman himself saying that's his mom's name without Lois Deus Ex'ing the hell out of the moment make more sense? Or does it not actually matter who says it, and just that it's said at all that matters more in that scene?

He if had to go down like that. He could have said ...

At least save by mom.
Please say my mother.

Something like that I mean it silly on the face of it. This guy is killing you are you want him to save your mother . But saying something like that is far better then what we got .

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cjsdowg posted...

He if had to go down like that. He could have said ...

At least save by mom.
Please say my mother.

Something like that I mean it silly on the face of it. This guy is killing you are you want him to save your mother . But saying something like that is far better then what we got .

That would have worked but I get the impression he wanted to bring up the coincidence their mothers have the same name.

Also i dont think it would be that silly. Superman knew batman was a "good" guy he just didnt agree with how he handled business.

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Malcrasternus posted...

He's not getting angry because he's confused. He got angry because he heard his mother's name and thought it was some trick by Superman to throw him off guard.

That's what I meant by it being clunky. It's dumb and cheesy. Nothing about the scene feels natural because the scene wants to both set up the name coincidence and have Batman learn empathy. It's an example of wanting the payoff without the proper set up which the movie does again later with Superman's death. Clark saying Batman is letting Martha die doesn't feel right. Batman yelling Martha in confusion doesn't feel right. So the scene becomes unintentionally funny.

Malcrasternus posted...

As a fun hypothetical, would Superman himself saying that's his mom's name without Lois Deus Ex'ing the hell out of the moment make more sense? Or does it not actually matter who says it, and just that it's said at all that matters more in that scene?

I think it would be fine if Batman learned that Martha was his Mom's name when he rescued her. Their Moms don't need to have the same first name to give Batman motivation to hear out Superman and Lois. That's putting the focus in the wrong place. The name coincidence shouldn't be the turning point. It should be the payoff at the end.

UnfairRepresent posted...

People just didn't get the scene

It wasn't because "they have da same name." it was because Batman stopped seeing Superman as an alien God creature/threat. But as a fellow human.

He saw that Superman had a mother and loved his mother. He was a person. No different to Batman.

Literally everyone gets that. Batman learns they both have Mothers because they have the same name. It's dumb, clunky and made people laugh. It failed what it went for. Which was being the emotional climax of the movie.

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It's not just that "they both have mothers"

But also that supes loves his mom. He's not an alien beyond biology. He's a person

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UnfairRepresent posted...

It's not just that "they both have mothers"

But also that supes loves his mom. He's not an alien beyond biology. He's a person

We know. I'm talking about the catalyst.

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Darmik posted...

That's what I meant by it being clunky. It's dumb and cheesy.

Agreed.

Darmik posted...

Nothing about the scene feels natural because the scene wants to both set up the name coincidence and have Batman learn empathy.

I'd argue that's Superman's desperation to give Batman something at the very least to work with before he dies, since just being in the vicinity of Kryptonite is fatal over time to him. He likely had just moments left to muster enough strength to say the name.

That's how I see it at least, though all that said, I still don't like this movie. But that particular scene in my eyes, given how much of a corner Zac cornered himself into, he did an okay enough job to break free of the tail spin, imo. And that people give that particular moment a little too much shit.

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The scene makes perfect sense.

- If I'm beating the shit out of a dude and he says "save Sara" (my moms name) yeah, that would give me pause and demand to know why he said that

- If I'm getting my shit pounded into the dirt whilst being poisoned, im probably not gonna be terribly eloquent. Superman only had strength for two words

- Why "Martha" and not "Mom"? Superman probably at least knew Batman wouldn't know where to start IF he chose to save his mom; "Martha" is at least something to go on, somewhere to start.

That said, BvS was an atrocious goddamn fanfic of a movie.

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I think the real problem isnt so much the idea of the scene but more that its just another part of the movie that suffered because of the overly forced shared universe coupled with jumping the gun.

BVS should have been the culmination of several movies developing these characters, and all the Doomsday, Justice League, and WW stuff should have been left out.

Thats what really made the scene suffer. It should have been the climax but it ended up only serving as a means to get them buddy buddy going into the two final battles.

This is why Ive said before that if Snyder could have just made his solo Supes movies wed probably have a solid trilogy that could then be used to spring into the DCEU.

But WB wanted that MCU money with none of the build up. So we got what we got.

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I enjoyed it and I thought it was a very clever way to bring the two together.