Current Events > Did Joel make the right choice at the end of TLOU? *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

The Fireflies are absolutely incompetent morons, for the record.

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If they are truly incompetent, then yeah

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Of course. They were trying to make a vaccine for a fungi infection. That doesn't even exist now!

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It was the right choice in the narrative-- it's the choice I think that character would have made.

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bump

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He should of just walked away. The developers should of given the player the choice on what to do.

Tsukasa1891 posted...

He should of just walked away. The developers should of given the player the choice on what to do.

*should have. And I disagree. They were telling a story, and giving player choices wouldn't fit into what they were going for.

vigorm0rtis posted...

It was the right choice in the narrative-- it's the choice I think that character would have made.

I agree with this

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Morally and ethically yes, since Ellie didn't give permission for the operation.

Effectively probably not, for a variety of reasons, but Joel had no way of knowing any of these, so it's a moot point. (granted he would've made the same choice no matter what, which the attempts to paint the Fireflies as herbal remedy-level doctors who had no chance of fixing anything anyway kinda diminishes lol)
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Graycap posted...

Morally and ethically yes, since Ellie didn't give permission for the operation.

Effectively probably not, for a variety of reasons, but Joel had no way of knowing any of these, so it's a moot point. (granted he would've made the same choice no matter what, which the attempts to paint the Fireflies as herbal remedy-level doctors who had no chance of fixing anything anyway kinda diminishes lol)

That's how I feel about it. Ellie gave no consent, and they wanted to kill Joel for literally no reason. The issue though is that Joel really did not care about that. He knew that if asked, Ellie would have been willing to die if it would create a vaccine.

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VioletMassacre posted...

Yes. She wasnt the only immune person, she wasnt as important as we were lead to believe.

nah, they said they experimented on others, but have never seen anyone like Ellie, and that she was special.

anyway, it's hard to say.

like, why should the lives of others mean more than the life of an individual, especially in a terrible world where people threw their humanity to the side for the sake of survival?

and even though it wasn't perfect, there were people trying to rebuild their own pockets of society despite all of the threats out there.

on the other hand, it's something that Ellie would have wanted (Joel knew it, too), and a vaccine could have been just what the world needed to try to be more than it was.

yea, the Fireflies were terrorists, and would have used it as a political tool, but maybe somewhere down the line, they could have been taken down, or maybe they'd just continue to grow bigger and stronger, but at least there would have been a chance.

...either way, I don't blame Joel for what he did.

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Sorozone posted...

Of course. They were trying to make a vaccine for a fungi infection. That doesn't even exist now!

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Abso-fucking-lutely

The Fireflies were terrorists who didn't know a damn thing about what they were doing
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Absolutely, the ending is what solidified it as one of the greatest games of all the time.

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Yes, even if they developed a vaccine the only thing it would do it keep fireflies from getting infected from non fatal wounds from infected.

Clickers ripping your flesh out would still kill you plus no other faction of people would believe the vaccine worked.


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Fireflies represented hope. Joel killed that lol

^ they could have proven it by having a volunteer breathe in spores and show nothing happening to them.

iirc, the spores start taking effect within seconds.

edit: at post 16

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sLaCkEr408___RJ posted...

Fireflies represented hope. Joel killed that lol

Terrorism is not hope
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mattymad posted...

There's no wrong or right choice in this scenario.

Joel went too far though.

Joel is not supposed to be a 'good' person. The morals in TLoU are ethically grey intentionally.

The second one really misses the mark on this I find and just makes it about revenge because apparently revenge is justified.

Agree with everything except the last line

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Objectively no. The assumption they are incompetent comes 100% just from Joel being a salty emotinal bitch.

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ZeroX91 posted...

Objectively no. The assumption they are incompetent comes 100% just from Joel being a salty emotinal bitch.

https://youtu.be/ma4DJbvO84I?t=11200
Timestamped, so you don't have to watch the entire video.

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ZeroX91 posted...

Objectively no. The assumption they are incompetent comes 100% just from Joel being a salty emotinal bitch.

It also comes from the fact that you don't use vaccines to treat fungal infections.

They would have cracked open Ellie's melon for literally no reason.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Terrorism is not hope

Tell that to Princess Leia

Heartomaton posted...

It also comes from the fact that you don't use vaccines to treat fungal infections.

They would have cracked open Ellie's melon for literally no reason.

I think we should chalk it up either to Naughty Dog not knowing how vaccines work, or the game just using "vaccine" in a colloquial way so that more players know what's going on.

I say that because the game presents Ellie being used as a sacrifice for a "vaccine" as working out, and it makes Joel's decision more poignant, because there would be no moral dilemma if he was saving Ellie from a group of people who don't know what they're doing (as far as creating a "vaccine", at least).

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g0ldie posted...

if he was saving Ellie from a group of people who don't know what they're doing

I mean it's obvious the fireflies have no idea what they're doing.

true.

but there's nothing in-game to suggest that was the case with the "vaccine".

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People saying yes astound me.

Both TLOU1 and 2 go so far out of their way to slap you in the face with the fact that what Joel did was evil and selfish and yet fans literally lie about the content of the product to defend him.

It goes a long way towards explaining things like Trump's base and how cults work.

Joel literally murdered people, he prevented the creation of a vaccine that would potentially save humanity and he lied to Ellie directly going against what he knew was her wishes, all because he selfishly missed his daughter and found a reason to live again through Ellie.

"The world fucked me so I fucked the world." the guy is a sociopath.

Claiming he did the right thing is fucking bonkers.

I swear stick a camera and a soundtrack behind Amon Gth and people would claim he was a hero

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UnfairRepresent posted...

I swear stick a camera and a soundtrack behind Amon Gth and people would claim he was a hero

You're a moron

Case and point

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You just compared a guy who literally murdered people for the lulz to a fictional character.

There's no doubt joel was selfish but his decision was based on his attachment to his surrogate daughter not because he was some amoral douche lol

Graycap posted...

Morally and ethically yes, since Ellie didn't give permission for the operation.

Effectively probably not, for a variety of reasons, but Joel had no way of knowing any of these, so it's a moot point. (granted he would've made the same choice no matter what, which the attempts to paint the Fireflies as herbal remedy-level doctors who had no chance of fixing anything anyway kinda diminishes lol)

its been a while since i've played but i remember her saying that she was ok with dying if it meant she could save people. Thats why the lady at the end before Joel shoots lays into him because he knows that's what she wanted.

Which is why Joel lies to her.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Case and point

Is constantly misspelling "case in point" just your gimmick or something?

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CouldBeAnAlt posted...

There's no doubt joel was selfish but his decision was based on his attachment to his surrogate daughter not because he was some amoral douche lol

It was both.

He was an amoral douche who did immensely evil actions for entirely selfish reasons.

CouldBeAnAlt posted...

You just compared a guy who literally murdered people for the lulz to a fictional character.

My point which you are intentionally pretending you don't understand is that people are lying and making excuses for the indefensiable because they got attached to the guy.

This is something you see in life and media a lot. Take away the soundtrack and camera and talk about Joel's actions solely in the abstract and absolutely no one other than a complete lunatic would even begin to think of argung that his actions were a good thing.

The game and its sequel went out of their way to railroad how it wasn't. The entire character arc and plot relies on the fact it wasn't.

The story doesn't even have any meaning or crescendo if it was the right thing to do.

Joel lied to a child, murdered innocent people and doomed humaity so he could be happy because he didn't give a single fuck about anyone else.

That's not the right thing. That's evil. Joel is a villain. The game never even attempted to hide that, it's not subtle.

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He made an understandable decision. The right one? I'd say nah. Ellie had made her choice, even if I don't think she knew just how badly the efforts to gain a cure from previous people had gone. (but I could be remembering wrong on if she knew or not)

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Funkydog posted...

He made an understandable decision. The right one? I'd say nah. Ellie had made her choice, even if I don't think she knew just how badly the efforts to gain a cure from previous people had gone. (but I could be remembering wrong on if she knew or not)

The problem is druckmann made joel too sympathetic and the fireflies not sympathetic enough but wanted the players to be unanimously against joel's decision. It's why as ur put they hit you over the head with joel being wrong in the second game.

No.

All arguments about whether the Fireflies are capable of making a vaccine/cure or what they'd do with it are absolutely irrelevant because none of that factored into Joel's decision. Joel believed they were capable of it. Joel knew Ellie would willingly die for the effort. Joel murdered Marlene - Ellie's adopted mother - solely to stop her from going after them. Joel lied about the situation when Ellie asked about it.

Joel saved her because he refused to go through another daughter dying. It's understandable. It's sympathetic. And it's selfish.

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pegusus123456 posted...

No.

All arguments about whether the Fireflies are capable of making a vaccine/cure or what they'd do with it are absolutely irrelevant because none of that factored into Joel's decision. Joel believed they were capable of it. Joel knew Ellie would willingly die for the effort. Joel murdered Marlene - Ellie's adopted mother - solely to stop her from going after them. Joel lied about the situation when Ellie asked about it.

Joel saved her because he refused to go through another daughter dying. It's understandable. It's sympathetic. And it's selfish.

Exactly

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CouldBeAnAlt posted...

The problem is druckmann made joel too sympathetic and the fireflies not sympathetic enough but wanted the players to be unanimously against joel's decision. It's why as ur put they hit you over the head with joel being wrong in the second game.

One of the many reasons the sequel was a bad game

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BignutzisBack posted...

One of the many reasons the sequel was a bad game

The first game beat you over the head with how what Joel did was evil too

It had you literally butcher doctors, doom humanity, abuse children and execute Marlene who just put her gun down and moments before save your life.

And none of that is even hyperbole...

Joel's actions are blatantly evil. The game couldn't have demonstrated that any further

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Heartomaton posted...

It also comes from the fact that you don't use vaccines to treat fungal infections.

They would have cracked open Ellie's melon for literally no reason.

Cordyceps also dont turn humans into mushroom zombies so....infact they are a common ass ingredent

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mattymad posted...

The second one really misses the mark on this I find and just makes it about revenge because apparently revenge is justified.

tlou2 is a critique of vengeance

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InYourWalls1 posted...

tlou2 is a critique of vengeance

Yeah I'm sort of baffled by people interpreting it that it's promoting revenge and that it's saying Joel did the wrong thing. Like...did they pay attention to the game?

From an outside perspective Joel did not do the right thing. But most fathers would do the same thing if they could. Joel saw Ellie as his daughter and loved her. He did the wrong thing for his right reason.

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InYourWalls1 posted...

tlou2 is a critique of vengeance

Ironically both games teach that vengeance is good thing if you go all the way.

The Fireflies lose in TLOU1 because Marlene shows Joel mercy and saves him

Then they lose again in TLOU2 because they show Ellie mercy and let her go

It's unintentional but the message of the games is basically that Miller's Crossing was right "I always tell my boys, one in the head"

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Darmik posted...

From an outside perspective Joel did not do the right thing. But most fathers would do the same thing if they could. Joel saw Ellie as his daughter and loved her. He did the wrong thing for his right reason.

Yeah, and then ditto for Abby. It really was masterful how they framed the story and played with perspective

UnfairRepresent posted...

It's unintentional but the message of the games is basically that Miller's Crossing was right "I always tell my boys, put one in the brain"

Haha, yeah you can maybe look at it that way. Though if a character reaches that point they're definitely beyond the pale

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Joel was in the wrong through and through.

UnfairRepresent posted...

The Fireflies lose in TLOU1 because Marlene shows Joel mercy and saves him

The Fireflies lose because they were dishonest about the procedure and assumed Joel had no emotional attachment to the girl they were going to dissect without her permission. If they took their time and treated Ellie like an actual person things wouldn't have escalated so quickly.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Then they lose again in TLOU2 because they show Ellie mercy and let her go

There were several people in the town looking for vengeance. By killing Tommy and Ellie they'd have even more people out for their blood.

If they actually treated people like people when in a position of power both groups would have fared better.


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Darmik posted...

The Fireflies lose because they were dishonest about the procedure and assumed Joel had no emotional attachment to the girl they were going to dissect without her permission. If they took their time and treated Ellie like an actual person things wouldn't have escalated so quickly.

Not true even slightly

Marlene blatantly knows what Joel feels about Ellie and shows him sympathy and mercy twice instead of killing him

As a result she died

And Joel is the one who didn't treat Ellie as a person, violating her wishes and lying to her so he could be happy.

He used Ellie like a toy for his own pleasure, not as a human being he respected

Darmik posted...

There were several people in the town looking for vengeance. By killing Tommy and Ellie they'd have even more people out for their blood.

Not really true

The people in Town wouldn't know who did it or why (if they even knew it wasnt zombies) and the fireflies would be long gone

They only know who did it because Tommy and Ellie were spared.

That mercy got them all killed

Well except Abby because the plot was a mess

If they actually treated people like people when in a position of power both groups would have fared

indeed


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Darmik posted...

From an outside perspective Joel did not do the right thing. But most fathers would do the same thing if they could. Joel saw Ellie as his daughter and loved her. He did the wrong thing for his right reason.

I'm critical of this too

Joel's actions were very selfish for a father

He violated his daughters wishes, lies to her, murders her friends and dooms humanity

Thats not what someone who loves their daughter would do

Joel is more selfish than that

Ellie made him happy and got him out of depression. For the first time in years he had a reason to live again, and the world was going to take it away from him... again

Joel's actions were pure egotism, selfish and evil

"The world fucked me so I fucked the world"

Not the actions of a loving father, the actions more akin to an addict who needed a fix.

He couldn't go back to that emptiness that consumed him for decades, so he did what was good for him and fuck everyone else

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Marlene blatantly knows what Joel feels about Ellie and shows him sympathy and mercy twice instead of killing him

As a result she died

And Joel is the one who didn't treat Ellie as a person, violating her wishes and lying to her so he could be happy.

He used Ellie like a toy for his own pleasure, not as a human being he respected

Nobody treated her like a person. That's the point. There's a reason they rushed her to surgery before she could even wake up. Both Joel and the Fireflies robbed her of her choice. Both end up paying the price for it.

UnfairRepresent posted...

The people in Town wouldn't know who did it or why (if they even knew it wasnt zombies) and the fireflies would be long gone

Zombies don't use golf clubs. Even then if murdered everyone and got away with it how would Abby and the gang handle that? They struggled enough with what they did as is. Pretending they were doing the right thing and pursued justice is why they were all on board.

Also if the plot continued to play the same but Ellie was murdered ironically Abby would also end up dead. Her act of mercy towards Ellie ends up saving her in the long term.

UnfairRepresent posted...

I'm critical of this too

Joel's actions were very selfish for a father

He violated his daughters wishes, lies to her, murders her friends and dooms humanity

Thats not what someone who loves their daughter would do

Joel is more selfish than that

Ellie made him happy and got him out of depression. For the first time in years he had a reason to live again, and the world was going to take it away from him... again

Joel's actions were pure egotism, selfish and evil

"The world fucked me so I fucked the world"

Not the actions of a loving father, the actions more akin to an addict who needed a fix.

He couldn't go back to that emptiness that consumed him for decades, so he did what was good for him and fuck everyone else

He was robbed of the chance of having that conversation with Ellie. Any father who loves their daughter would do anything to save their daughter from death. From his perspective she had no choice. He wasn't wrong.

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