Current Events > The Democrats have just put forth a bill raising the minimum wage to $15!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Questionmarktarius posted...

there's a long line of people ready to replace you, probably this afternoon.

That's the thing is no there isn't. Not except for the lowest skilled positions available like bagging groceries.

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Rent already goes up every year, I'm starting to doubt it's that closely tied to minimum wage.

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Mike_Stanton posted...

To be fair, the effect on prices is a bit overstated, but minimum wage laws can have other negative effects such as less hours worked per low skilled worker, or less workers hired at low skill positions. Overall, the minimum wage does more harm than good imo because it reduces the supply of labor.

Yep. Look at Amazon werehouses. They pay a lot but demand insane productivity and fire anyone who doesn't work fast enough.

So now your "$10/hr" people who might be middle aged or slower will have an extremely hard time finding work. A small business owner might have 2 employees that earn $12 an hour could just fire both and have one person do double work for $15/hr.

All big companies cut hours. I worked at Walmart years ago for $10/h and 20 hours. If they could they'd pay us even less. You can not survive on $7.25. You can not buy food, pay rent, bills. Even $15 is the bare minimum to survive.

kelemvor posted...

Yep. Look at Amazon werehouses. They pay a lot but demand insane productivity and fire anyone who doesn't work fast enough.

So now your "$10/hr" people who might be middle aged or slower will have an extremely hard time finding work. A small business owner might have 2 employees that earn $12 an hour could just fire both and have one person do double work for $15/hr.

You're implying they weren't doing that before. Here work your 10 hours a week for $7.26 and be happy. You people are truly sad. The CEOs of these companies get tens of millions but, raising our wages is horrible.

Good.
Minimum wage is supposed to increase along the rise of inflation

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Solid Snake07 posted...

I haven't said anything about the cost of a big mac genius. But if you want to get into the subject of corporate fast food giants they're gonna have a much easier time weathering increased labor costs than smaller regional chains or local restaurants.

It's the same reason amazon is a proponent of a federal minimum wage increase. It's another way for them to box out competition that can't afford to keep up.

I was responding to someone who brought up big macs, and you put yourself into that conversation by bringing up the cost of living. Maybe read what you're replying to next time.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

That's the thing is no there isn't. Not except for the lowest skilled positions available like bagging groceries.

Good. You do understand who gets screwed over here.

Fucking 2025? Christ. Haven't we been fighting for this since like 2012

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Questionmarktarius posted...

Not really. Study after study has shown an insignificant effect on aggregate employment.
What actually, happens, is that the guy who can't get consistent ride to work, or the single mom who has to randomly take days off for "kid issues", or the person who just can't lift the box of frozen burgers for some reason, are going to be the first ones fired.

I'm not talking about aggregate employment, I'm talking about employment at low-skilled jobs. It won't have a big impact on aggregate employment because it mostly just effects people at the low end of the pay scale. Studies that have focused on low-skill positions have consistently shown that the minimum wage has a negative effect on low-skill employment or at least the amount of hours worked...

Minimum Wages and Employment: A Review of Evidence from the New Minimum Wage Research (nber.org)

https://tinyurl.com/y6zetzlq

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TeaMilk posted...

Fucking 2025? Christ. Haven't we been fighting for this since like 2012

@TeaMilk I'm gonna need you to provide a source concerning you saying it's been since 2012. Thx.

Mike_Stanton posted...

Studies that have focused on low-skill positions have consistently shown that the minimum wage has a negative effect on low-skill employment or at least the amount of hours worked...

That's just how it is. If your labor isn't producing value greater than its cost, then your labor will no longer be needed.

Just another misguided feelgoodism that hurts the people it's meant to help.

We need to automate AND pay every single American a living wage.

"But they'll cut hours!" Companies have already been doing that without wage increases. I see hours evaporating everywhere. At my own job, I've worked there 4 and a half years and the hours corporate gives us have been halved. We're doing the same or more work with half the time and manpower.

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Bleuets posted...

@TeaMilk I'm gonna need you to provide a source concerning you saying it's been since 2012. Thx.

Ok


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My political views are all over the place, but this never seemed like it would work well to me. Like, okay, Walmart and McDonald's probably CAN afford to pay more without significantly raising their cost of goods (although no reason to think they will want less profits, so they very well will increase prices), but the rando local restaurant or shop is probably barely getting by as it is (even pre-COVID) on razor thin profit margins. You know, those weird ice cream shacks that are only open in the warm months and employ 90% high school kids. I don't see how they can manage with massively raising prices and thus probably losing business.

Plus if the prices go up, okay, the guy who was making $9 an hour is now making $15 so he can feel okay about it, but the guy that's been making $15.50 the whole time and doesn't get any raise is going to get hit really hard.

I really do want people to make more money and be able to live with all their needs and some of their wants but I don't know, doesn't seem feasible to have a massive boost like that in four years without major repercussions.

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The tax thing again? You'd pay 20% or whatever on the first 25k or whatever of your income.

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The Top Crusader posted...

My political views are all over the place, but this never seemed like it would work well to me. Like, okay, Walmart and McDonald's probably CAN afford to pay more without significantly raising their cost of goods (although no reason to think they will want less profits, so they very well will increase prices), but the rando local restaurant or shop is probably barely getting by as it is (even pre-COVID) on razor thin profit margins. You know, those weird ice cream shacks that are only open in the warm months and employ 90% high school kids. I don't see how they can manage with massively raising prices and thus probably losing business.

Plus if the prices go up, okay, the guy who was making $9 an hour is now making $15 so he can feel okay about it, but the guy that's been making $15.50 the whole time and doesn't get any raise is going to get hit really hard.

I really do want people to make more money and be able to live with all their needs and some of their wants but I don't know, doesn't seem feasible to have a massive boost like that in four years without major repercussions.

Then the government has to pick up the tab. Everyone needs to be paid a living wage. If you can't afford to pay your employees living, competitive wages, then something needs to be done. The employees and/or small employers need assistance.

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Looks like it's going to be marginal increases starting at $9.50 when the bill first takes effect, working up to $15 each year.

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Thats good but we also need UBI (Universal Basic Income)

Kingbuffet posted...

Thats good but we also need UBI (Universal Basic Income)

That's the sort of policy where you have to be ready to work a good chunk of your adult life to get it passed

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Doom_Art posted...

That's the sort of policy where you have to be ready to work a good chunk of your adult life to get it passed

I think regular stimulus money would be an easy through-line to get it passed. Once people realize they deserve money from the government, they'll pressure congress to make it happen.

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Questionmarktarius posted...

That's just how it is. If your labor isn't producing value greater than its cost, then your labor will no longer be needed.

Just another misguided feelgoodism that hurts the people it's meant to help.

I agree, that's why I dislike minimum wage laws.

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Maybe on top of a minimum wage, there should be a maximum cost of living

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scar the 1 posted...

Maybe on top of a minimum wage, there should be a maximum cost of living

Bad idea. That would result in shortages of like everything and kill a lot of people.

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A flat 15 is dumb. Let the states set that shit individually an apartment in LA doesn't run you the same amount as an apartment in Alabama.

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starting to think progressives aren't very honest

https://twitter.com/Wilson__Valdez/status/1354150316447559680

Broseph_Stalin posted...

starting to think progressives aren't very honest

When you treat the overton window like it's an overton hangar door, that just happens.

Adapt or move out the fucking way and let businesses that care about people rise up

Broseph_Stalin posted...

starting to think progressives aren't very honest

https://twitter.com/Wilson__Valdez/status/1354150316447559680

reminder she runs a patreon-funded podcast literally called "Bad Faith"

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I went to college twice to be able to feed myself, so everybody else should have to do that too.

Mike_Stanton posted...

I agree, that's why I dislike minimum wage laws.

Without minimum wage laws, it would be a race to the bottom for wages. There was a reason they came to be in the first place

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uwnim posted...

Bad idea. That would result in shortages of like everything and kill a lot of people.

Right now there's a lot of surpluses though, and people are still dying

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Gwynevere posted...

There was a reason they came to be in the first place

racism.
https://miltonfriedman.hoover.org/friedman_images/Collections/2016c21/NW_09_26_1966.pdf

Questionmarktarius posted...

racism.
https://miltonfriedman.hoover.org/friedman_images/Collections/2016c21/NW_09_26_1966.pdf

I wish I had full access to this, but there's a preview

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1810006?seq=1

Minimum wage increases weren't the only reason for the rise of unemployment for black Americans during that time period. It's a little more nuanced than that


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Thanks Biden for farting on us and sniffin those fumes right back in.

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scar the 1 posted...

Right now there's a lot of surpluses though, and people are still dying

Which is better, because that means we can try to figure out how to make sure stuff gets to where it needs to go. While if we make it so theres not near enough theres not much to be done except wait for folks to die.

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uwnim posted...

Which is better, because that means we can try to figure out how to make sure stuff gets to where it needs to go.

That's not happening. What's happening is surplus is getting destroyed when people can't make profit on it, and the people who make profit are in charge. Oh and the surplus is also created at the expense of poor people


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scar the 1 posted...

That's not happening. What's happening is surplus is getting destroyed when people can't make profit on it, and the people who make profit are in charge. Oh and the surplus is also created at the expense of poor people

Yes, and? You are not telling me anything I don't already know. There's a reason I said try to figure something out.
Solutions can be some large group purchasing the surplus and distributing it, could involve making sure folks have the resources to acquire things themselves. It certainly does not involve destroying the surplus and more ourselves. Ideas need to come up, be distributed, fail, distributed again until more people come around to it and regardless of what the powerful wanted come to pass.

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Yeah, I presented an idea, which you dismissed, only to follow it up with "ideas need to come up"

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scar the 1 posted...

Yeah, I presented an idea, which you dismissed, only to follow it up with "ideas need to come up"

I dismissed with a reason and instead of trying to defend your idea, you just decided to talk about the problem that exists. <_<

In that same post I also said that ideas should be expected to fail at first.

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The majority of the US economy is supported by small businesses.

This only hurts smalls businesses.

gg?

CHM_Punk posted...

We are in an era where ideological leftists that exclusively get their economical information via meme and tweet consumption rant about how a business shouldnt exist if they cant pay a living wage that do not comprehend how deep theyre benefiting and boot licking the feet of the very mega corporations and rich people that they write twenty million statuses and tweets bitching about lol.

yawn

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uwnim posted...

I dismissed with a reason and instead of trying to defend your idea, you just decided to talk about the problem that exists. <_<

In that same post I also said that ideas should be expected to fail at first.

I decided to talk about the problem that exists because your comment sounds a bit dismissive to me. Like "all we need is to tweak the system" doesn't really do it for me when the system is doing exactly what it's designed to, and there aren't any small changes that will fundamentally change that

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AtelierRyza2462 posted...

The majority of the US economy is supported by small businesses.

This only hurts smalls businesses.

gg?

Maybe the government should help small businesses so they are able to pay all people living wages.

Small businesses can't pay their employees while corporations can and refuse to.


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CHM_Punk posted...

We are in an era where ideological leftists that exclusively get their economical information via meme and tweet consumption rant about how a business shouldnt exist if they cant pay a living wage that do not comprehend how deep theyre benefiting and boot licking the feet of the very mega corporations and rich people that they write twenty million statuses and tweets bitching about lol.

Thats kinda how it goes. If they really understood economics, they wouldn't be on the left. Its the quickest self-sorting mechanism imaginable.

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onedarksoul posted...

Thats kinda how it goes. If they really understood economics, they wouldn't be on the left. Its the quickest self-sorting mechanism imaginable.

I'm sure the millions of poor people in America are happy the right understands economics. Maybe their great-grandchildren will get lucky and work up to middle class.

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Expect more automation and outsourcing.

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The right have a ton wrong as well. They are against market reform in general.

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