Current Events > Black Panther is a top tier movie...

(+) Yeah! (+)

pinky0926 posted...

yet another cookie cutter Marvel movie except this time it was black people

This is very unfair.

First of all, it shouldn't be dismissed "except with black people." Having a black superhero movie done this well is a breath of fresh air to the superhero genre of movies, and obviously the reaction to it showed how needed it was.

Second, as for the "Cookie cutter" aspect of it. I believe this couldn't be farther than the truth IMHO. It's SOOOO much more than the sum of it's parts. It could've been a paint by numbers superhero affair with black people, as you described it, it easily could have been. But it wasn't. It was an extremely well crafted movie from start to finish. It has some of the best performances in the entire MCU, which elevates it beyond just any "superhero movie"

There's a serious magic to this movie. I don't know how you can watch some of these scenes and not feel it. Every single scene in the "Ancestral Plane" is AMAAAZING. Every time Killmonger is on screen, it's electric. Which btw, one of the biggest complaints about MCU movies by and large is weak villains. Then you have Killmonger who is ranked up there with Thanos and Loki and he only had one movie. There have been a ton of conversations whether his ideals were right, whether the ends justify the means. Ain't no one talking about Yellowjacket from Ant Man like that. Which is a great movie btw, but Black Panther is clearly playing in a different league.

It also got nominated for 6 Oscars and won 3. Whether you want to bring some political bullshit into that or feel it was undeserved, the reality stands. This never happens with Superhero movies.

I think it's for very good reason.


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Its not a bad Marvel movie by any means, but Ill never understand how people think its the best Marvel movie.

SwayM posted...

Theres many reasons why it struck a cord with black audiences. The idea of a society of black people being at the top, not the bottom is one of the major ones.

So if there was this society. A person like Killmonger, who grew up at the bottom. But less red there was a whole nation of people like him, with the power and wealth to help the whole world. Who instead hide away from the world.

Id maybe be a little upset too. Especially if I come from royalty of this country.

Childish takeaway

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Garioshi posted...

It's okay

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my favorite part was when the white man tried to talk and the black people grunted like gorillas to make him shut up.

ekie posted...

Childish takeaway. Killmonger is in no way a sympathetic figure.

If you're racist, then yeah you won't sympathize with him.

jason19192 posted...

If you're racist, then yeah you won't sympathize with him.

??

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I tried to get into it but I just didn't think it was very entertaining and fell asleep like halfway thru. The only Marvel movies I loved were GotG and Infinity War.

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It was okay.

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ekie posted...

Childish takeaway. Killmonger is in no way a sympathetic figure.

Tell that to the thousands of conversations that are happening as we speak.

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SwayM posted...

This is very unfair.

First of all, it shouldn't be dismissed "except with black people." Having a black superhero movie done this well is a breath of fresh air to the superhero genre of movies, and obviously the reaction to it showed how needed it was.

Second, as for the "Cookie cutter" aspect of it. I believe this couldn't be farther than the truth IMHO. It's SOOOO much more than the sum of it's parts. It could've been a paint by numbers superhero affair with black people, as you described it, it easily could have been. But it wasn't. It was an extremely well crafted movie from start to finish. It has some of the best performances in the entire MCU, which elevates it beyond just any "superhero movie"

There's a serious magic to this movie. I don't know how you can watch some of these scenes and not feel it. Every single scene in the "Ancestral Plane" is AMAAAZING. Every time Killmonger is on screen, it's electric. Which btw, one of the biggest complaints about MCU movies by and large is weak villains. Then you have Killmonger who is ranked up there with Thanos and Loki and he only had one movie. There have been a ton of conversations whether his ideals were right, whether the ends justify the means. Ain't no one talking about Yellowjacket from Ant Man like that. Which is a great movie btw, but Black Panther is clearly playing in a different league.

It also got nominated for 6 Oscars and won 3. Whether you want to bring some political bullshit into that or feel it was undeserved, the reality stands. This never happens with Superhero movies.

I think it's for very good reason.

I thought it was good, that's all. It didn't blow me away and I'm not really gonna praise the movie for it's representation beyond saying "cool, that's nice, step in the right direction". But I'm not going to pretend that it's a thing that's especially personal to me. Like, I'm a straight white middle class british guy, what do I know about underrepresentation? It's basically an abstract concept that I can appreciate but not really feel very deeply.

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pinky0926 posted...

I thought it was good, that's all. It didn't blow me away and I'm not really gonna praise the movie for it's representation beyond saying "cool, that's nice, step in the right direction". But I'm not going to pretend that it's a thing that's especially personal to me. Like, I'm a straight white middle class british guy, what do I know about underrepresentation? It's basically an abstract concept that I can appreciate but not really feel very deeply.

Maybe it hit me different. But also I know Ive seen a lot of people that look like me (white as fuck) get their time. It didnt feel like it was trying to do something, like it was going out of its way to be different. It was extremely talented people at the height of their craft getting to tell a story from their perspective. I wish I could have seen it in a predominantly black theatre for the crowd relations, but thats not a reality where I live.

In fact, I actually had the theatre completely to myself on opening week. Which in itself is an extremely unique experience I would highly recommend if anyone gets the chance. No distractions. A whole theatre to yourself. Obviously any movie seen in this conditions maybe is a little more favourable. I definitely had the time to appreciate the movie on maybe a different level in that moment.

But having just rewatched it again, it holds up.

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pinky0926 posted...

I'll have to revisit it. First time around I just felt like I was watching yet another cookie cutter Marvel movie except this time it was black people and african culture and I was supposed to love the movie for that fact alone but I still couldn't just stop thinking that I had seen the entire movie 20 times over already from the very first scene

Maybe I'm expecting too much or being overly harsh. The hype was lost on me though. I thought it was good, that's all.

You're not being harsh. Disney has a literal formula to decide how their movies are supposed to play out. It's why they wouldn't let Edgar Wright take Ant-Man in a new direction and why they won't let Raimi make Doctor Strange 2 scarier.

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SwayM posted...

it was going out of its way to be different.

This is just not true. It was a great flick, but it wasn't unique compared to other Marvel movies.

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Black Panther was average. Falls squarely in the middle of any MCU movie ranking.

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It was good, but it certainly isnt groundbreaking in any way. Thats really the same with most of the movies in the franchise though. Outside of the culmination of everything that is IF/EG, most can be sorted into good or meh.

SquirtleSkwad posted...

This is just not true. It was a great flick, but it wasn't unique compared to other Marvel movies.

It's usage of African and African-American culture alone makes it unique compared to the rest of the MCU. This is a bad take.

PatrickMahomes posted...

Black Panther was average. Falls squarely in the middle of any MCU movie ranking.

I agree with this.

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SquirtleSkwad posted...

Disney has a literal formula to decide how their movies are supposed to play out. It's why they wouldn't let Edgar Wright take Ant-Man in a new direction and why they won't let Raimi make Doctor Strange 2 scarier.

Marvel has story beats that they make directors hit, but Taika Watiti, the Russo Brothers, James Gunn and Ryan Coogler were all allowed to play with their movies as much as they liked, to name a few.

Marvel has shit planed out years in advance, that doesnt mean the movies are written from start to finish and directors are given no room to play. It means there are a few major story beats that have to be hit for the timeline thats in place, but other than that, go nuts.

It sounds like Edgar Wright didnt want to play ball at all. He wanted 100% control and for it to live in this vacuum

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/collider.com/edgar-wright-ant-man-production-problems-explained/amp/

Heres some interesting tidbits.

While the Marvel Cinematic Universe was in the midst of expanding, Wright envisioned Ant-Man as a standalone story:

By October 2013, casting had begun and Marvel had staked out a July 2015 release date for the film. Marvel and Wright had narrowed their Scott Lang search down to Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Paul Rudd. Reportedly, it was Wright who wanted Rudd while Marvel favored Gordon-Levitt, hoping to inject some more youth into the MCU.

According to this. Wright is responsible for Paul Rudd in the MCU. And hey, JGL would have been amazing too. But cmon. Its fuckin Paul Rudd

Heres Wrights account of it:

I wanted to make a Marvel movie but I dont think they really wanted to make an Edgar Wright movie. I was the writer-director on it and then they wanted to do a draft without me, and having written all my other movies, thats a tough thing to move forward thinking if I do one of these movies I would like to be the writer-director. Suddenly becoming a director-for-hire on it, youre sort of less emotionally invested and you start to wonder why youre there, really.

And heres Kevin Feige

I wish it wasnt as late in the day as it was, but it just had become clear that there was an impasse that we had never reached before. Weve worked with lots of unbelievable talented filmmakers like Edgar before, and of course there are disagreements along the way. We had always found a way around it, a way to battle through it and emerge on the other side with a better product. It just became clear that both of us was just being too polite over the past eight years I guess! Then it was clear that, Oh youre really not gonna stop talking about that note? Oh, youre really not gonna do that note? Alright this isnt working.

This is an interesting and unfortunate story by both parties IMHO. And neither comes out of this unscathed. Edgar Wright was attached to Ant Man from the jump. It was supposed to be there alongside Iron Man and Captain America. But was delayed at least a couple of times. One they didnt feel it was a strong enough character to launch a franchise on. Two, let Wright do his own thing.

Marvel was actually eyeing Ant-Man was one of its Phase Two movies, but allowed Wright to delay production so he could instead make his original sci-fi film The Worlds End first

But All of us wish they could have made this work. Marvel hiring writers unbeknownst to Wright sounds shitty. But if its really a case of hey we know there was maybe a different plan in place for this movie initially. But were gonna need these scenes to make it match up in our current timeline

And for me, I trust Feige more than anyone else in the movie world. If he says they tried to make it work but Wright wouldnt take any notes to help their established universe?

How many scenes are in Ant Man that tie it to the MCU? Like 3. The flashback with Hank/Peggy/Howard and that Hydra guy at the beginning. And then two scenes with Falcon, one being a tiny stinger at the end.

I dont think Wright is being fair here. I dont think Marvel didnt let Wright make a Wright movie. Theres so much evidence out there of directors getting to do their thing. It seems like they had 3 important notes and Wright wouldnt budge.

And at the end of the day, Marvel CLEARY knows what theyre doing. We never got Wrights Ant Man unfortunately...but you cant call the product we got bad by any means.


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