Current Events > CE socialists how would society's resources be allocated in your ideal world

(+) Yeah! (+)

Broseph_Stalin posted...

They might be. They might not be.

Like I said if a machine requires a skilled worker to operate it the worker would be able to bargain for higher wages based on the higher productivity the machine creates. If a worker isn't required at all to operate it then what productivity gains do they create for the factory?

Yeah, IF

That just goes back to what you said being conditional and not universal

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

That just goes back to what you said being conditional and not universal

Well no, it's still universal.

If a worker loses their job to an autonomous machine that greatly increases productivity you wouldn't say productivity went up but their wage went down. The workers productivity decreased (relative to the machine) so the wage they can bargain for also decreased. Meaning wages are always a function of productivity.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

Well no, it's still universal.

If a worker loses their job to an autonomous machine that greatly increases productivity you wouldn't say productivity went up but their wage went down. The workers productivity decreased (relative to the machine) so the wage they can bargain for also decreased. Meaning wages are always a function of productivity.

Sure

But you're ignoring my scenario that makes it not universal

That being that machine+worker=same wage more productivity


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MedeaLysistrata posted...

But you're ignoring my scenario that makes it not universal

That being that machine+worker=same wage more productivity

This scenario?

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Suppose an assembly plant has 10 workers and then a machine comes along to get rid of 2 workers and speed up the process, but it's a no skill machine

In that case it's the machine creating productivity gains, and not the workers. There's no reason they'd be able to bargain for higher wages unless the machine required their skills to operate.

In practice though machines generally replaced hand-made methods completely, greatly increasing productivity and wages for workers even if the machinery required fairly low skills to operate.

g980 posted...

And how well do you think we'd be doing after 4 years of a Trump-run bureau of resource allocation

Uh well yeah thats a non-starter but feel free to reframe the question in a more honest manner.

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@Shablagoo would you be willing to take a swing at these?

g980 posted...

I think i am doing a bad job of asking this question so maybe i try a concrete example?

- i want to start making and selling pizzas, but i do not have enough money to buy a pizza oven. How do i get a pizza oven?
-- who owns that pizza oven?

- i am a pizza maker and i hire someone to help make pizzas. Who now owns the pizza oven?

- i am hit by a car and die with $100 in pizza sauce bills left unpaid. What happens to that debt?

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Are you asking these questions in the context of what would happen within a socialist/communist system? (Sorry, I havent read through the whole topic.)

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Shablagoo posted...

Are you asking these questions in the context of what would happen within a socialist/communist system? (Sorry, I havent read through the whole topic.)

Yea, specifically how you would want it to be (allowing for the many flavors of socialism)
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

In practice though machines generally replaced hand-made methods completely, greatly increasing productivity and wages for workers even if the machinery required fairly low skills to operate.

Is there an example of this happening in the last 60 years?

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Anyway, it's weird how concerned you seem about socialists and socialism imo gnumbers. It'd be less weird if you ever offered your vision of a better society that was more exhaustive than disliking trump, especially since you only seem to bring that up as a distraction (like here, how bad would socialism be under Trump, or what I've seen a couple other times "this thing Biden did is kinda dumb but it signals he's not Trump so it's good")

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Balrog0 posted...

Anyway, it's weird how concerned you seem about socialists and socialism imo gnumbers. It'd be less weird if you ever offered your vision of a better society that was more exhaustive than disliking trump, especially since you only seem to bring that up as a distraction (like here, how bad would socialism be under Trump, or what I've seen a couple other times "this thing Biden did is kinda dumb but it signals he's not Trump so it's good")

CE has a lot of capitalism/socialism topics, this is just me trying to engage with the zeitgeist. In contrast, on LUE i talk about podcasts and make peepee jokes.

And i do offer my vision occasionally but i can summarize & reiterate if thatd help:
- i think society is generally alright as-is, regulated capitalism with strong welfare programs works
- i would like to see some form of publically available healthcare, i do not have enough expertise to feel strongly about the exact implementation
- i am ok with some increase in taxes on the very wealthy, but not wealth taxes and nothing extreme
- i am a fan of incremental changes
- i dont care how mean republicans have been, we will always need to make an effort to work with the red half of the country
- to add to that, i really dislike the demagoguery on #bothsides

Idk thats rambly but maybe it helps
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Balrog0 posted...

"this thing Biden did is kinda dumb but it signals he's not Trump so it's good"

Im not sure what this refers to. Ive been pretty happy with Biden so far.
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g980 posted...

- i dont care how mean republicans have been, we will always need to make an effort to work with the red half of the country

Can't work with someone who refuses to be worked with.

Establishment Dems need to drop the battered wife syndrome.

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That's hardly a vision of a better society, like half of it is more of less "things aren't bad" which is definitely how you come off. I'm just a little disappointed you're more worried about nagging socialists about how they'll run pizza places than even, like, educating yourself on what you think about healthcare which is something you might actually be able to do something about.

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mrgoatthief posted...

less money to sports, music, and movie stars

I dont understand this one. Those groups receive lots of money because we, the public, are the ones giving it to them.

Maybe we could tell people to stop being paying fans of things they like?

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Balrog0 posted...

That's hardly a vision of a better society, like half of it is more of less "things aren't bad" which is definitely how you come off. I'm just a little disappointed you're more worried about nagging socialists about how they'll run pizza places than even, like, educating yourself on what you think about healthcare which is something you might actually be able to do something about.

Why would i have grand plans for a better society if i am content already? You asked for my view, thats what it is. Things arent that bad at a macro level, we absolutely should try to improve things for those that the status quo is *not* working for... but not in a way that unduly threatens the stability we have.

And idk i think you are being unfair about this topic. If i want a debate with people who are passionate and have a different viewpoint than me, why not try to drum up some conversation about socialism?

I should have left out the snark in the OP but otherwise im sorry to disappoint but i think we are just looking to get different things out of our MBEs sometimes
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g980 posted...

Why would i have grand plans for a better society if i am content already?

I didn't say anything about grand plans, just an idea of what a better society would look like. I also didn't say you should or would have them, just that imo you seem more honed in on socialism than just a casual curiosity, which would be less weird if you had your own competing vision (that would make more sense why another would bother you if you had one)

Also you might be worried about other people even if you're content.

g980 posted...

Things arent that bad at a macro level, we absolutely should try to improve things for those that the status quo is *not* working for... but not in a way that unduly threatens the stability we have.

1 in 3 black men are going to be incarcerated which is one reason the racial wealth gap is increasing, deaths of despair are increasing, education and health care eat up bigger and bigger pieces of the average family's budget... There are many pressing societal issues even outside the current pandemic.

g980 posted...

And idk i think you are being unfair about this topic. If i want a debate with people who are passionate and have a different viewpoint than me, why not try to drum up some conversation about socialism?

It's something I've noticed outside this topic.

g980 posted...

I should have left out the snark in the OP but otherwise im sorry to disappoint but i think we are just looking to get different things out of our MBEs sometimes

I think it's more a life thing that a message board thing, honestly. Your response here has basically been, I'm content, why shouldn't I think things are okay? That is not my life philosophy

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Or, I suppose more directly, the idea that stability is important over and above addressing said societal issues. I just have a real issue with your reasoning there, even as someone who identifies as an incrementalist. It persuades me to think I am wrong to think that incrementalism is the way to go

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Balrog0 posted...

I didn't say anything about grand plans, just an idea of what a better society would look like. I also didn't say you should or would have them, just that imo you seem more honed in on socialism than just a casual curiosity, which would be less weird if you had your own competing vision (that would make more sense why another would bother you if you had one)

Also you might be worried about other people even if you're content.

1 in 3 black men are going to be incarcerated which is one reason the racial wealth gap is increasing, deaths of despair are increasing, education and health care eat up bigger and bigger pieces of the average family's budget... There are many pressing societal issues even outside the current pandemic.

It's something I've noticed outside this topic.

I think it's more a life thing that a message board thing, honestly. Your response here has basically been, I'm content, why shouldn't I think things are okay? That is not my life philosophy

I think you completely blew past the part where i acknowledge society isnt working for everyone.

There is an ocean between "things arent that bad at a macro level" and "im not worried about other people"
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I think you blew past it lol. It's literally just a sentiment. Improving the world for other people didn't factor into anything you said at all, dude.

But you started by saying that almost verbatim, so...

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Balrog0 posted...

Or, I suppose more directly, the idea that stability is important over and above addressing said societal issues. I just have a real issue with your reasoning there, even as someone who identifies as an incrementalist. It persuades me to think I am wrong to think that incrementalism is the way to go

A desire for stability should inform *how* we address said societal issues, not *whether*

And yea stability is important. Otherwise we just create new problems.
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marthsheretoo posted...

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure socialists are generally ok with private ownership of capital, just with a bunch of government oversight. Communists are the ones who want everything to be state run.

Nah. Actual communists dont want a state at all. It's supposed to be a classless stateless society

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Balrog0 posted...

I think you blew past it lol. It's literally just a sentiment. Improving the world for other people didn't factor into anything you said at all, dude.

But you started by saying that almost verbatim, so...

Me not having solutions to everything isnt the same as not caring.

My point is that they require more nuanced solutions than the typical CE "fuck capitalism" rhetoric, and i only have so many hours in a day to research and think about this. Tbh man we dont all think about social issues professionally.

I like talking socialism vs capitalism because it is high level and i am interested/professionally invested in the economic side of things
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

This scenario?

In that case it's the machine creating productivity gains, and not the workers. There's no reason they'd be able to bargain for higher wages unless the machine required their skills to operate.

In practice though machines generally replaced hand-made methods completely, greatly increasing productivity and wages for workers even if the machinery required fairly low skills to operate.

Second part of your post is just wrong and plenty of mostly automatic machines need human oversight, which is evident from working one day in a 24 hour minimum wage bread factory with multiple layers of production... So... No

First part of post, they are in no position to bargain because two have been fired and the rest of them need their jobs. And if they lose their jobs, the new crew isnt going to try to bargain and risk losing their new job

Remember, the machine needs people to function in this case, but the boss knows he can get away with paying pennies because people need jobs.

Also, if the workers operating the machine work the same hours for the same pay, they are actually being more productive than before...

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I mean, I would argue you're putting the cart before the horse there... I have the job I do because I was already invested in caring about this stuff before anyone paid me to do it. But, your point is well taken, I'm not being fair especially to your personally. If it helps I don't mean it as an attack on you or your character. I have just as many issues with ce leftists

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Balrog0 posted...

I mean, I would argue you're putting the cart before the horse there... I have the job I do because I was already invested in caring about this stuff before anyone paid me to do it. But, your point is well taken, I'm not being fair especially to your personally. If it helps I don't mean it as an attack on you or your character. I have just as many issues with ce leftists

Fair enough

And thanks for challenging me

While im comfortable with my stance on not trying to have solutions for everything, i really do try to follow the lead of those more informed when they have reasonable solutions
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g980 posted...

Yea, specifically how you would want it to be (allowing for the many flavors of socialism)

Ok, sweet.

So when were talking about communism all we are really talking about is democratic control of resources.

- i want to start making and selling pizzas, but i do not have enough money to buy a pizza oven. How do i get a pizza oven?
-- who owns that pizza oven?

How does one get a pizza oven within capitalism? Someone gathers the resources needed to build it and then someone builds it, right? Then a pizza maker eventually uses it to bake pizzas.

- i am a pizza maker and i hire someone to help make pizzas. Who now owns the pizza oven?

The pizza oven is used to bake pizzas which people then eat.

- i am hit by a car and die with $100 in pizza sauce bills left unpaid. What happens to that debt?

What do you suggest?

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@g980

Your ideas are bad. Glad you're not in charge of anything.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

First part of post, they are in no position to bargain because two have been fired and the rest of them need their jobs. And if they lose their jobs, the new crew isnt going to try to bargain and risk losing their new job

Remember, the machine needs people to function in this case, but the boss knows he can get away with paying pennies because people need jobs.

This assumes the employer has a monopsony and ignores the bargaining power the worker has based on their productivity. By this logic everyone in the US should be making minimum wage because it's all employers are legally required to pay and people need jobs.

Like the "good ol days" the boomers go on about, where they had all kinds of benefits we don't.

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Broseph_Stalin posted...

This assumes the employer has a monopsony and ignores the bargaining power the worker has based on their productivity. By this logic everyone in the US should be making minimum wage because it's all employers are legally required to pay and people need jobs.

You're assuming all the factories dont have the same machine and an already fully stocked line. There are more people than factories.

The logic that someone can just go to a different employer is so dependent on the sense that everyone can command the pay they want, that employers are always hiring, and just to cut the bullshit short, some people arent "smart" and cant get skills to better bargain.

Access to any skillset you want through education is not even an option for most of the world now much less 100 years ago. You seem to think everyone has the same opportunities, which isnt a very realist position, is it?

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I enjoy the fact that Broseph recently learned the word monopsony and now is trying to work it into seemingly every post he makes, haha.

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Shablagoo posted...

I enjoy the fact that Broseph recently learned the word monopsony and now is trying to work it into seemingly every post he makes, haha

Yeah I really had to work to force monopsony into a conversation about... employer bargaining power.

More projection from the guy who had to make a topic about adam smith on landlords the second he heard it lmao

Broseph_Stalin posted...

Yeah I really had to work to force monopsony into a conversation

We know lol, its cute

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What does a monopsony have to do with a situation where an employer is the only one paying for labor? I'm very intelligent btw.

The funny part is that you just learned the word and have been trying to fit it into all of your posts since.

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no the funny part is that I can ask you to post a single example of me using the word in an unrelated conversation and you wouldn't be able to lmao

yeah i dont keep archives of dying message board posts so youre likely correct for the first time ever

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