Current Events > Can some explain how Affirmative Action is racist, when...

(+) Yeah! (+)

Affirmative action is righting the racist wrongs of the past. The original policy that propped it up was established along racial confines. So the corrective action...is going to be established along racial confines.

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White women actually benefit from AA more than any other group these days.

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You can eliminate peanut allergies entirely by just force feeding allergic kids PB&Js.

Just because something fixes a problem doesn't mean it's a good and just way to fix it.

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s0nicfan posted...

You can eliminate peanut allergies entirely by just force feeding allergic kids PB&Js.

That's an awful fucking analogy.

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InhumaneRaider posted...

That's an awful fucking analogy.

Just because something fixes a problem doesn't mean it's a good and just way to fix it.

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how can our eyes be racist when they aren't even real

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s0nicfan posted...

Just because something fixes a problem doesn't mean it's a good and just way to fix it.

That's still a stupid analogy.

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Blind application/interview process operated entirely by super intelligent AI would solve this easily.

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Solar_Crimson posted...

White women actually benefit from AA more than any other group these days.

this.

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MikeG posted...

Affirmative action is righting the racist wrongs of the past.

Except the jobs are automatically given to them because of this, and many people miss out on a job they're more qualified for due to not being black.

I know some moron will jump in with the "they've dealt with it for years wah wah wah", and while I agree it's terrible, doing the exact same thing in reverse is just as racist and just as bad.
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Lord_Wombat posted...

Except the jobs are automatically given to them because of this, and many people miss out on a job they're more qualified for due to not being black.

I know some moron will jump in with the "they've dealt with it for years wah wah wah", and while I agree it's terrible, doing the exact same thing in reverse is just as racist and just as bad.

Many black people miss out on jobs by growing up in run down schools with no funding surrounded by crime in broken homes and ghettos.

The only way to level the playing field a bit is by getting their foot in the door, even if they aren't as "qualified" (aka didn't have the same privileged upbringing).

Don't worry, that white guy with all the superior qualifications will land on his feet somewhere else in an equal or better position regardless.

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Zodd3224 posted...

Many black people miss out on jobs by growing up in run down schools with no funding surrounded by crime in broken homes and ghettos.

The only way to level the playing field a bit is by getting their foot in the door, even if they aren't as "qualified" (aka didn't have the same privileged upbringing).

Don't worry, that white guy with all the superior qualifications will land on his feet somewhere else in an equal or better position regardless.

I appreciate you proving my point, which I suggest you reread.

Racism doesn't just go one way, and nobody deserves to be punished because their ancestors were pieces of shit.

I won't even go into how I was raised in East Cleveland in the same situation you described...
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Lord_Wombat posted...

Many black people miss out on jobs by growing up in run down schools with no funding surrounded by crime in broken homes and ghettos.

This is the problem that needs addressing.

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I could get behind affirmative action if it was about class instead of race

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sevihaimerej posted...

Blind application/interview process operated entirely by super intelligent AI would solve this easily.

Not exactly; if you're trying to address an existing imbalance the process can't be blind

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Ilishe posted...

This is the problem that needs addressing.

Agreed. But that's much more difficult to fix. The hope is once more people from those situations get their foot in the door then them and their family can start to make better lives for themselves going forward.

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Kazi1212 posted...

I could get behind affirmative action if it was about class instead of race

Solar_Crimson posted...

White women actually benefit from AA more than any other group these days.

I love how this is being ignored and turned into "dey tuk er jurbz!".

Ilishe posted...

This is the problem that needs addressing.

Not sure why I was accredited with that post...

Kazi1212 posted...

I could get behind affirmative action if it was about class instead of race

+1
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InYourWalls1 posted...

Not exactly; if you're trying to address an existing imbalance the process can't be blind

You want equity you need communist robots, otherwise humans will always corrupt the process.

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http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/17/affirmative-action-has-helped-white-women-more-than-anyone/

bloodyarts posted...

I love how this is being ignored and turned into "dey tuk er jurbz!".

Because if someone is making the point that it should be about class instead of race, replying with "but sometimes it's about sex too" completely misses the point he was making.

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Conflict posted...

White people weren't forced into impoverished neighborhoods and living conditions, so "but I grew up in the hood too" isn't a rebuttal.

Nah, you're right, my family absolutely lived there because they loved it.
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Conflict posted...

White people weren't forced into impoverished neighborhoods and living conditions, so "but I grew up in the hood too" isn't a rebuttal.

...white people choose whether or not they're poor? You folks make it really hard to defend the left sometimes lmao

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people are offended by the thought of AA because they fall into the nonsense that being White in A White Majority country (triple points if you are a normal looking semi attractive White Male) where whiteness is placed on a pedestal doesn't frequently help them in life and are offended that AA programs acknowledge this reality.

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You cannot defeat discrimination by mandating it.

you can't legislate AA by changing it to a class based system exclusively because many of y'all inherently view due to living in a society with race issues view non Whites as less qualified for positions (see the famous studies where people with Black sounding names or other non white sounding names with the same got damn resumes or qualifications frequently get fewer call backs)

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MikeG posted...

Affirmative action is righting the racist wrongs of the past. The original policy that propped it up was established along racial confines. So the corrective action...is going to be established along racial confines.

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People will complain about how unfair this stuff is but don't give a shit when people hire friends or family. Which even the President of the United States did.

This stuff is pretty unfair in general.

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coolboy11 posted...

you can't legislate AA by changing it to a class based system exclusively because many of y'all inherently view due to living in a society with race issues view non Whites as less qualified for positions (see the famous studies where people with Black sounding names or other non white sounding names with the same got damn resumes or qualifications frequently get fewer call backs)

Can you imagine being the guy who got a mailed in resume from some guy named "Barack Hussein Obama" and was like "lmao what the fuck is this?" And threw it out.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Can you imagine being the guy who got a mailed in resume from some guy named "Barack Hussein Obama" and was like "lmao what the fuck is this?" And threw it out.

Are you assuming "Angharad Talfryn Gwalchmai" is moving to the top of the pile any time soon?

coolboy11 posted...

you can't legislate AA by changing it to a class based system exclusively because many of y'all inherently view due to living in a society with race issues view non Whites as less qualified for positions (see the famous studies where people with Black sounding names or other non white sounding names with the same got damn resumes or qualifications frequently get fewer call backs)

One of my former white friends said he throws away applications with black sounding names without looking at them

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coolboy11 posted...

people are offended by the thought of AA because they fall into the nonsense that being White in A White Majority country (triple points if you are a normal looking semi attractive White Male) where whiteness is placed on a pedestal doesn't frequently help them in life and are offended that AA programs acknowledge this reality.

You would have better a point if people didn't regularly bring up how AA discriminates against asians. Then again, when people do that they're either accused of being disingenuous or someone makes an off hand common about Asians and model minorities and moves on without actually addressing the issue.

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Lord_Wombat posted...

Except the jobs are automatically given to them because of this

Affirmative Action doesn't exist in the job market. Get good and stop being salty

coolboy11 posted...

people are offended by the thought of AA because they fall into the nonsense that being White in A White Majority country (triple points if you are a normal looking semi attractive White Male) where whiteness is placed on a pedestal doesn't frequently help them in life and are offended that AA programs acknowledge this reality.

Nope.

People are offended by AA because it is based on sexism and racism. This does not mean it doesnt help some people. It absolutely does. I believe a lot of people recognize this dual nature on some level, but they are uncomfortable because it means they have to accept the fact that sometimes a thing can not only be a benefit but also violate their principles. In other words, racism is super bad and nobody should be racist, but Im going to ignore this instance of practiced racism by calling it something else, because Im getting something out of it.

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Lorenzo_2003 posted...

Nope.

People are offended by AA because it is based on sexism and racism. This does not mean it doesnt help some people. It absolutely does. I believe a lot of people recognize this dual nature on some level, but they are uncomfortable because it means they have to accept the fact that sometimes a thing can not only be a benefit but also violate their principles. In other words, racism is super bad and nobody should be racist, but Im going to ignore this instance of practiced racism by calling it something else, because Im getting something out of it.

Its amazing how impossible empathy is for some people. Shit like this is so frustrating I usually don't even bother with it anymore but God damn its so prevalent.

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AA doesn't negatively affect anyone and there's no evidence that it holds back others

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the extent of most vehement AA detractors' knowledge about it is basically that dinner table scene in American History X, which is an incredibly misunderstood scene to begin with

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sevihaimerej posted...

Blind application/interview process operated entirely by super intelligent AI would solve this easily.

That would work best - particularly with a 'panel' interview. The problem is between both AA measures and racist 'structures' is that in both cases, the 'best' candidate can be missed due to issues relating to race. A blind panel interview would showcase the best person for a job without introducing race, sex, etc. into the mixture.

Of course, the human factor will ALWAYS have somewhat of a bias, regardless of how it is set up. Even AA in itself only serves to fill 'quotas' and doesn't actually really target the real problems of classism.

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ZMythos posted...

AA doesn't negatively affect anyone and there's no evidence that it holds back others

Because, as "implemented" in the US, it's a strong suggestion at best.

There's either under-representation due to racism/unconscious bias against someone or under-representation due to lack of ability due to lack of resources. You can't really fix biases outside of longterm education over several generations and firing people when it's provable, but AA doesn't really help solve it either. It definitely doesn't solve lack of resources. It's a feelgood measure that ultimately does little in the long run.

nemu posted...

It's a feelgood measure that ultimately does little in the long run.

Implied "quotas" without actual quotas. It's actually quite clever.

ZMythos posted...

AA doesn't negatively affect anyone and there's no evidence that it holds back others

This is nonsense. If you set up a system where I need a higher GPA or SAT score or work experience to have the same chance of getting admitted/hired then my chances of getting hired or admitted go down.

In places where white people make up the vast majority of the population they often make a conscious choice saying "i'm going to hurt my people's prospects a little bit to help you out a lot" but if you look at a place like California and compared admissions rates with race neutral admissions to their top tier colleges like Cal Tech or Berkeley for Asian kid's admission rates with equal qualifications at schools that do consider race you are basically telling them "white people were mean to these people back in the day so half of you don't get to go to Berkeley because there are way too many Asian faces on campus. If you don't like this change your racist".

This is why the whole argument for affirmative action gets a lot more complicated as the US becomes less white. Its the difference between it being a gift and something thats vindictively taken as some form of revenge.

MaverickXeo posted...

That would work best - particularly with a 'panel' interview. The problem is between both AA measures and racist 'structures' is that in both cases, the 'best' candidate can be missed due to issues relating to race. A blind panel interview would showcase the best person for a job without introducing race, sex, etc. into the mixture.

Of course, the human factor will ALWAYS have somewhat of a bias, regardless of how it is set up. Even AA in itself only serves to fill 'quotas' and doesn't actually really target the real problems of classism.

Yes, which is why we need to develop a super powerful AI deity to "take care of us" :)

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sevihaimerej posted...

Yes, which is why we need to develop a super powerful AI deity to "take care of us" :)

Any AI we develop will have the same faults as us - we cannot program anything 'smarter' than us.

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Solar_Crimson posted...

White women actually benefit from AA more than any other group these days.

how so?

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MaverickXeo posted...

Any AI we develop will have the same faults as us - we cannot program anything 'smarter' than us.

I dunno, Stephen Hawking was a pretty smart guy and he considered it an inevitability so...

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Atralis posted...

This is nonsense. If you set up a system where I need a higher GPA or SAT score or work experience to have the same chance of getting admitted/hired then my chances of getting hired or admitted go down.

In places where white people make up the vast majority of the population they often make a conscious choice saying "i'm going to hurt my people's prospects a little bit to help you out a lot" but if you look at a place like California and compared admissions rates with race neutral admissions to their top tier colleges like Cal Tech or Berkeley for Asian kid's admission rates with equal qualifications at schools that do consider race you are basically telling them "white people were mean to these people back in the day so half of you don't get to go to Berkeley because there are way too many Asian faces on campus. If you don't like this change your racist".

This is why the whole argument for affirmative action gets a lot more complicated as the US becomes less white. Its the difference between it being a gift and something thats vindictively taken as some form of revenge.

What a bad take. Nice little "replacement theory" peppered in at the end, too.

Also California hasn't practiced affirmative action since 1996.

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MikeG posted...

racist wrongs of the past.

70 million people voted for a Nazi just a month ago.

It hurts Asians and helps white women based on studies I have seen of college admissions. But that seems like a problem with how they're trying to create some kind of balance than a problem with the concept itself. Is too many Asian really a problem? I have trouble believing the US is racist in favor of Asians. Additionally white women are the largest individual group at universities so I don't understand why it is helping them. The whole thing is very confusing in the way it has actually been implemented in the US, at least at the University level.

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