Current Events > I don't agree with the people who say "Everybody should vote"...

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the0rebirth posted...

I'm never going to feel bad about thinking people should only vote if it's coming from an informed place. If someone says they voted for Trump because they like his wig, or that they voted for Biden because they think stuttering's sexy, then I'm gonna take issue with that. I'm allowed to think that's stupid and harmful. You're allowed to disagree.

ignorance is stupid and harmful. doesn't change anything about the importance of representation

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I dont agree mostly. I don't care if everybody goes out to vote, but i don't really care enough and i don't look up enough stuff, if any, to vote myself.

And I also don't care for people who hound people to vote no matter what. Would you really want an uninformed and careless ballot?

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Frolex posted...

ignorance is stupid and harmful. doesn't change anything about the importance of representation

If a person is only voting because they feel compelled to by society, yet don't actually know what they're voting for, then they're not being represented. They're only scoring participation points, which means nothing if they end up helping empower someone who serves against their interests. Ya know, because they were too ignorant to vote for someone who actually would have represented their interests.

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the0rebirth posted...

If a person is only voting because they feel compelled to by society, yet don't actually know what they're voting for, then they're not being represented.

representation doesn't determine who is voting for the "right" reasons

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Ideally the person deciding to go vote would use that as a reason to look into the candidates and ballots.

Anyway, I'm fine with people not voting if them not voting is their way of messaging how they feel. Like, not voting being a way to say you don't support any of the candidates, etc. That's fine and as far as I'm concerned, is as good as voting.

Not voting for pure laziness reason is meh, but whatever.
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Frolex posted...

representation doesn't determine who is voting for the "right" reasons

You're the only one here using the term "right". Notice that everyone else is saying "informed/educated", which are perfectly reasonable expectations for anyone who decides to vote.

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And it's not as if you have to vote for every item on the ballot. If you don't like Trump or biden, there are lots of other things to vote for on the ballot
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the0rebirth posted...

You're the only one here using the term "right". Notice that everyone else is saying "informed/educated", which are perfectly reasonable expectations for anyone who decides to vote.

doesn't matter how reasonable they are. democracy doesn't mean representation only for the educated

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Frolex posted...

doesn't matter how reasonable they are. democracy doesn't mean representation only for the educated

And for at least the third time, no one is proposing that it be law for only the "adequately educated" to vote. It's still okay to HAVE THE OPINION that people shouldn't vote unless they're informed. It's PERFECTLY REASONABLE to feel that way.

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the0rebirth posted...

And for at least the third time, no one is proposing that it be law for only the "adequately educated" to vote. It's still okay to HAVE THE OPINION that people shouldn't vote unless they're informed. It's PERFECTLY REASONABLE to feel that way.

correct, no one here has said you have to value democracy

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Frolex posted...

correct, no one here has said you have to value democracy

So are you saying that if I disagree with anything our democracy allows, I don't value democracy?

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the0rebirth posted...

So are you saying that if I disagree with anything that isn't illegal, I don't value democracy?

if you don't inherently value representation, you don't value democracy.

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Frolex posted...

if you don't inherently value representation, you don't value democracy.

And again, a person isn't being represented if their votes aren't based on representation. I like how you've consistently ignored this point.

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the0rebirth posted...

And again, a person isn't being represented if their votes aren't based on how they'd like to be represented. I like how you've consistently ignored this point.

being informed adequate to your standard is not a requirement of representation

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Frolex posted...

being informed adequate to your standard is not a requirement of representation

Point out the post where I said it has to be to my standards.

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No one ever tells everybody to get educated first. Everyone should have the right to vote, but I don't know how anyone can look at everyone and think that they should actually go out and do it every election.

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the0rebirth posted...

Point out the post where I said it has to be to my standards.

who should set the standard in a democracy?

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SandTarpit posted...

Firstly it usually assumes the person is going to vote to agrees with you,

it doesn't assume that at all.

Go vote.

Wait I didn't get who you were voting for? Let me know who so I can agree with you.

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hockeybub89 posted...

No one ever tells everybody to get educated first. Everyone should have the right to vote, but I don't know how anyone can look at everyone and think that they should actually go out and do it every election.

Exactly. People are just virtue-signaling.

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the0rebirth posted...

Exactly. People are just virtue-signaling.

Agreed.


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Aki_Sora posted...

Voting is gambling

So I don't vote

Not voting is letting other people gamble for you. Thats even dumber.

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Frolex posted...

who should set the standard in a democracy?

You're back to framing this as if it's a legal matter, when it's clearly a philosophical one.

Voting from a place of ignorance is bad, and therefore, I don't think people should do it. What's your counterargument?

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the0rebirth posted...

You're back to framing this as if it's a legal matter, when it's clearly a philosophical one.

Voting from a place of ignorance is bad, and therefore, I don't think people should do it. What's your counterargument?

think ignorance is bad does not inherently preclude you from valuing representation in democracy. in your case it does, for people who want representation of all voices it doesn't. not complicated.

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Frolex posted...

think ignorance is bad does not inherently preclude you from valuing representation in democracy. in your case it does, for people who want representation of all voices it doesn't. not complicated.

Now you're just garbling words together without making sense. I asked you a very simple question: what is your counterargument to the notion that it's bad to vote from a place of ignorance, and should therefore be discouraged? Do you have an actual reason? Black & white terms only, please.

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the0rebirth posted...

Now you're just garbling words together without making sense. I asked you a very simple question: what is your counterargument to the notion that it's bad to vote from a place of ignorance, and should therefore be discouraged? Do you have an actual reason? Black & white terms only, please.

I never said it was bad not to value democracy. you're the only one assigning moral value to it here.

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Frolex posted...

I never said it was bad not to value democracy. you're the only one assigning moral value to it here.

I'm going to ask you again: do you agree or disagree that voting from a place of ignorance is bad, and should not be encouraged? Yes or no.

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To folks saying you should represent regardless of ignorance, I have one thing to say. Imagine if Trump won because he has better looking hair, or a silly reason like that.
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the0rebirth posted...

I'm going to ask you again: do you agree or disagree that voting from a place of ignorance is bad, and shouldn't be encouraged? Yes or no.

ignorance is bad. encouraging universal voter participation is not encouraging ignorance

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Frolex posted...

ignorance is bad. encouraging universal voter participation is not encouraging ignorance

I love that you're answering yes-or-no questions like a politician with something to hide. Kind of ironic.
Is voting from a place of ignorance bad, and therefore something that should be discouraged?
Literally just say yes or no. I dare you.

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the0rebirth posted...

I love that you're answering yes-or-no questions like a politician with something to hide.
Is voting from a place of ignorance bad, and therefore something that should be discouraged?
Literally just say yes or no. I dare you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z-a5hy7QO8

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Frolex posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z-a5hy7QO8

This skit works because the questions actually require detailed and nuanced answers. The one I'm asking you doesn't.

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We should have a poll test. If you can't name something simple like the candidate's vice president you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

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the0rebirth posted...

This skit works because the questions are actually complex and nuanced. The one I'm asking you isn't.

It is, since your position is predicated on the assumption that advocating universal representation necessarily encourages ignorance.

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My wife would cancel out my vote if she voted, and I'd still prefer she voted.

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the0rebirth posted...

Frolex posted...

ignorance is bad. encouraging universal voter participation is not encouraging ignorance

I love that you're answering yes-or-no questions like a politician with something to hide. Kind of ironic.
Is voting from a place of ignorance bad, and therefore something that should be discouraged?
Literally just say yes or no. I dare you.

I can answer this for you

No, voting from a place of ignorance is a bad idea. most people don't want to admit that however, because lots of people are under the misconception that you should vote, no matter what. Just wanted to put this response in, because you're not going to get an answer out of the other guy.
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Frolex posted...

It is, since your position is predicated on the assumption that advocating universal representation necessarily encourages ignorance.

No, it doesn't. That's just how you've been CHOOSING to view my argument.
I've been very consistent. If you blindly tell people to vote without encouraging them to be informed first, and/or tell them to vote IN SPITE of not being informed, then that's a bad move that should be discouraged IMO. That's the practice I take contention with. It is NOT good to tell people to vote just for the sake of voting. It IS good to tell people to vote based on an informed opinion of the candidates at hand. Voting just to vote = not good. Voting because you actually know what's going on = good.

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the0rebirth posted...

No, it doesn't. That's just how you've been CHOOSING to view my argument.
I've been very consistent. If you blindly tell people to vote without encouraging them to be informed first, and/or tell them to vote IN SPITE of not being uninformed, then that's a bad move that should be discouraged IMO. That's the practice I take contention with. It is NOT good to tell people to vote just for the sake of voting. It IS good to tell people to vote based on an informed opinion of the candidates at hand. Voting just to vote = not good. Voting because you actually know what's going on = good.

great. nothing stops people who advocate for universal voter participation from also advocating for a better educated public. everyone should still vote.

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Chunkey Simmons posted...

To folks saying you should represent regardless of ignorance, I have one thing to say. Imagine if Trump won because he has better looking hair, or a silly reason like that.

We've had plenty of presidents elected for that reason or something similar. Abraham lincoln won the primaries despite being an unpopular candidate because the caucus was in his home state. I'd say that turned out pretty well all things considered.

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Chunkey Simmons posted...

I can answer this for you

No, voting from a place of ignorance is a bad idea. most people don't want to admit that however, because lots of people are under the misconception that you should vote, no matter what. Just wanted to put this response in, because you're not going to get an answer out of the other guy.

Oh, I know. People would rather defend something that doesn't make sense than reexamine their own beliefs, because the latter requires the sacrifice of some pride. Humans are nuts lol


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I think democracy makes sense, personally

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Frolex posted...

everyone should still vote.

Let's say there's a guy named Bob. Bob is black.
Election time rolls around, but Bob decides not to vote because he feels he doesn't know enough about the candidates to make an educated decision. His peers shun him for this, saying that he should vote no matter what and that it's extremely irresponsible not to. Not wanting to feel like a piece of shit, Bob decides to vote after all. One of the candidates is a man named Phil; Bob votes for him randomly. Good job, Bob; you participated in the electoral process! The votes are counted, and whaddya know -- Phil wins! But see, there's just one problem: Phil is a blatant fucking racist...especially towards blacks.
Had Bob been informed, he would have known better than to vote for a monster like Phil...but because Bob felt compelled to vote no matter what, he ended up supporting someone who, ironically, now serves against his best interests.

Now, would you say that Bob experienced "representation" simply because he voted? If not, then what should Bob do next time?

A) make another uninformed vote
B) not vote at all (as originally intended), or
C) become well-informed about the candidates before voting for anyone

Which of these would you most encourage, and which would you least encourage?

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Just noticed this topic, and coincidentally my reply to the last topic I posted in fits better here:

Although I do think every adult should be able to vote, I believe that ideally people should undergo a required test before every major election, in order to ascertain their awareness of current political and societal matters. Based on the results, the voter's vote gets a certain value, so the more aware you are of current factual events, the more your vote is worth.

This way, a country's government is less likely to be elected based on lies/deception/fake news.

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Aressar posted...

Just noticed this topic, and coincidentally my reply to the last topic I posted in fits better here:

Although I do think every adult should be able to vote, I believe that ideally people should undergo a required test before every major election, in order to ascertain their awareness of current political and societal matters. Based on the results, the voter's vote gets a certain value, so the more aware you are of current factual events, the more your vote is worth.

This way, a country's government is less likely to be elected based on lies/deception/fake news.

I like this idea.

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the0rebirth posted...

Let's say there's a guy named Bob. Bob is black.
Election time rolls around, but Bob decides not to vote because he feels he doesn't know enough about the candidates to make an educated decision. His peers shun him for this, saying that he should vote no matter what and that it's extremely irresponsible not to. Not wanting to feel like a piece of shit, Bob decides to vote after all. One of the candidates is a man named Phil; Bob votes for him randomly. Good job, Bob; you participated in the electoral process! The votes are counted, and whaddya know -- Phil wins! But see, there's just one problem: Phil is a blatant fucking racist...especially towards blacks.
Had Bob been informed, he would have known better than to vote for a monster like Phil...but because Bob felt compelled to vote no matter what, he ended up supporting someone who, ironically, now serves against his best interests.

Now, would you say that Bob experienced "representation" simply because he voted? If not, then what should Bob do next time?

A) make another uninformed vote
B) not vote at all (as originally intended), or
C) become well-informed about the candidates before voting for anyone

Which of these would you most encourage, and which would you least encourage?

we should always encourage people to be better informed. everyone should still vote.

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Frolex posted...

we should always encourage people to be better informed. everyone should still vote.

"You should pray."
"I'm not religious."
"You should pray anyway."

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the0rebirth posted...

"You should pray."
"I'm not religious."
"You should pray anyway."

I'm sure this was a grade a gotcha in your head

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Frolex posted...

I'm sure this was a grade a gotcha in your head

It's a direct parallel of what you previously posted, meant to highlight the absurdity of your logic.

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Usually people's gut instinct with voting isnt far off from what is the truth.

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the0rebirth posted...

It's a direct parallel of what you previously posted, meant to highlight the absurdity of your logic.

Your belief that religion is a parallel to democracy at least helps explain your support for a return to literacy tests for voting.

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Everyone with citizenship in their home country has the right to vote. That's how you get a democracy.

You guys are really pushing for a dictatorship, aren't you?

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