Board 8 > King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) Finals ~ High: Death vs Hades

(+) Yeah! (+)

Welcome to blah

The game is simple. The two* listed characters are placed in an (imaginary) location with a variety of (imaginary) environments, kind of like a picture in a child's schoolbook that describes different types of geological features. Within a ten mile radius, there is an (imaginary) urban downtown, exurbs, plains, snow-clad mountains at the edge, dry plains, etc. Fighters start wherever is most appropriate for them, but feel increasingly compelled to seek out their opponent and fight. Strong-willed fighters can try to hold out in their chosen environment for longer... eventually, all will succumb and actively search for the other to battle.

To participate, just vote in bold for whichever character you believe will win. Giving reasoning is optional, but please be polite and read what others have said and carefully make your decision. I'll ping the nominators (they can opt out) to give arguments if they wish.

Results/Discussion: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/78971300

TODAY'S PARTICIPANTS:
Death (Supernatural)


vs



wow what a matchup

@5tarscream @Shonen_Bat

FIGHT

---

Hades has death as a henchman.

All there is to it really

---

I love this matchup, and these match picks

but yeah, these two are way more likely to be business partners than to fight, and Hades would do most of the offers Death might make in his spare time, for fun

Hades

---

Remember that this is the Death of Supernatural's realm, not Thanatos of Hades's. Death, who is as old as God, closer a counterpart to Uranus or Gaia than to a Greek god or even a titan. In terms of raw power, I think it's a mistake to write him off. He probably couldn't straight-up kill Hades, but he has a lot of power behind him apart from his point blade.

As for the deal arrangement... I don't think this fight would really come to that. Hades is accustomed to thinking of Death as you do, as his henchman, not as a rival worthy of respect. On his side, I think he'd be very dismissive, and wouldn't accept any offer if given. On the flipside, I doubt Death would care to offer it here. He made offers to Dean once to torment him and once to show him what being death is like. Those were reasonable motivations to extend to his dealings with the mortals Yujiro and Bigby, but they don't work against Hades. Yujiro is capable of acting sophisticated and civilized, and while cruel, isn't without a soul. It's easy to see that Death would find either of his canon motivations relevant to him despite Yujiro's apparent psychopathy. On the other hand, Hades is a cosmic entity who is entirely callous towards life (the wiki describes him as having no regard for other people, as seeing souls just as a resource to be harvested, delighting in the suffering of others, etc, compared to Yujiro's belief in strength and growth through struggle) who already reaps souls as a profession. I don't see why Death would be motivated to make a deal here; there's no moral to impart, no lesson to teach, no sadistic pleasure to be had. And hey. He may resent being forced to fight, but an opponent likes Hades might actually pique his interest


---

Hades

Honestly it just comes down to a matter of "anything that Death could do to Hades only benefits Hades". Causing any form of collateral damage just ends up with more of a job for Death to do and more expendable cannon fodder for Hades; Hell the guy would probably encourage a fight. Any lasting damage can easily be regenerated from (and probably hilariously mocked as "wow you do your job extremely efficiently. Helps me quite a bit" ). Any deal, Hades would probably treat as a game, or twist it to make sure that as many mortals die as possible as it gives him an excuse to flex his muscles outside of the Underworld. And probably most strongly, Hades' Belly totally nullifies any incoming or outgoing divine presences; the Lightning Chariot was the only thing that broke through that, and those horses are basically made for piercing through things and moving really fast. Hades can just... kind of win by ring out and then appoint someone else to be in charge of making sure people die.

Really, these are just two characters who can't really do anything to each other. Except one would probably derive intense pleasure from restraining and mocking the other until he gave up and has the means to do so, while the other can't do the one thing that his entire existence is built on doing to someone who is, at worst, his divine equal.

---

NFUN posted...

Remember that this is the Death of Supernatural's realm, not Thanatos of Hades's. Death, who is as old as God, closer a counterpart to Uranus or Gaia than to a Greek god or even a titan.

This is an important point.

---

They might be willing to throw down for a good while, but that's not really a fight that's going anywhere unless Hades could just eat him to win. This seems like the best case scenario for Death is just a draw, but man, eternity is a long time to have someone like Hades constantly making fun of you.

---

Lets not forget that Death literally trapped the Devil.

Like, this is not the cake walk people are dismissing it as. Like NFUN said, this isnt Death Hades henchman. This is Death from supernatural. The guy that trapped the ruler of Hell.

Death

---

Deaths wiki lists him as a primordial being with nigh-omnipotence. You think a guy older than creation is gonna get frustrated by Hades games? This actually might have draw written all over it. I feel like Death could win it by Hades dismissing him the way the early voters did and trapping Hades long enough to win the contest but I think maybe the more likely result is a draw.

---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Hades has death as a henchman.

All there is to it really

Thats the wrong Death.


---

Death

I think it's the more reasonable choice between the two.

Death

even discounting all other forms of Death, we are voting on the Supernatural one, who early on says he will outlive god and the devil and he will even be the one who "reaps god"

Death is inevitable and can not be stopped - even when he is trapped by Lucifer in supernatural he is still all powerful

like he's limited in what he can do because it's all part of a plan, but he can't be defeated. He is inevitable. All things will die.

---

Death

specifically because this is the supernatural version. If this was just Death with some ambiguity, then I think it could be argued either way. But as is I cant see a reason to not side with Death


---

Hades has more ways of taking out Death than the reverse (he can just destroy the arena for a ring out, etc.)

---

Hades destroying the arena would ring himself out, unless he left a portion of it intact, in which case Death would be able to occupy it as well

---

I'm seeing a lot of assuming that Death would win but not a lot of explaining how he would actually win. Hades is immortal too, it's not like Death is just going to outlive him. I don't think Death can capture him either, if it's physical confinement he can teleport out of it, and if it's sending him to another dimension or something he can just pop back into the underworld.

If Hades tried to win by destroying the arena for a ring out, that would work pretty well for him because he can fly.

---

I do not know how Death would win. I do know that there is no way a ring-out by way of destroying the arena defeats Death.

---

If Hades ate him, that's a different dimension he possibly couldn't escape from. Which... I have no idea if that counts as a ring out or not, as Hades' stomach is technically in the ring, but the actual innards are in another dimension that does insulate omniscience.

... Which I could totally see Hades doing. "Oh, I gave you a break, let you come back, whoops, everyone who thought they couldn't die anymore because I munched on the concept now suddenly is all dying at once". To which I don't know if Death would be incredibly frustrated by the sudden influx of work, or incredibly amused. Like, neither has the capability to really harm the other (Hades can keep regenning as long as people keep dying, and Death's existence is based on the fact that people keep dying), so it's either a draw or a battle of which one gets bored/frustrated first and forfeits. And then that gets into the idea of "is this displaced from time and Death cannot be everywhere else at once?" Does the concept of death stop for everyone else for this fight? Or are both of them there to account for every single death in both of their universes due to their omniscience?

I think Death's patience would run out first based on every other interpretation of Death I've ever seen, but also I don't really know Supernatural Death outside of "cruel".

---

NFUN posted...

I do not know how Death would win. I do know that there is no way a ring-out by way of destroying the arena defeats Death.

Why's that? Can Death also fly?

And yeah, even if that doesn't work there's also just... eating him

---

like, i said, death was around before god. i dont think he drifted helpless in the ceaseless void until he got anchored to the planet.

i dont think sam and dean couldve defeated him by luring him to a big hole and pushing him in

he is the embodiment of entropy and decay of the entire universe. the show afaik never explicitly shows him flying. i dont think its a stretch to say he would be able to

this is the worst argument of the series

---

Worse than "The show never gives any reason to think Death can fly but I'm saying he can anyways because reasons"?

Making a big hole and pushing him in it is different than just destroying everything and leaving him nowhere to go

I don't think this should even be a big thing anyways though because it's just one of the ways that Hades could be argued to win, and honestly probably one of the less likely ones when considering that if Hades wanted Death out of the arena he could just have him as a snack

---

As for the metaphysical implications of Death being in the match... I don't think Hades would be able to trap him like that. Confinement in Supernatural basically has two principles: ritual and power. In general, stronger beings > lesser beings in regards to repressing powers (eg, a lot of the stronger creatures can exorcise demons just through strength, and Death can be bound naturally by God and Amara) and rituals/artifacts can make up the difference (eg, chants let humans exorcise demons and the ring lets Lucifer bind Death). Hades won't have any specific ritual to bind Death, and he certainly isn't more powerful than him, so I doubt his stomach would restrain Death's omnipresence (for a feat, see Death being able to freely enter the cage meant to bind Lucifer). Likewise, it seems unlikely that people would stop dying while he's "in" the arena, since he's everywhere.

As for Hades just murdering everybody to piss off Death? I dunno, could work. Death does respect the natural order, and didn't want to wipe out humanity. OTOH, seeing as he is the angel of death and nearly wiped it out in Noah's Flood, he might be able to just stop Hades, or see Hades's intervention as a crime against nature and not reap people before their time. I'm not convinced it'd be a successful method

---

The problem is that Hades has several ways of technical victories but Death has no way to actually get rid of him

---

Shonen_Bat posted...

Worse than "The show never gives any reason to think Death can fly but I'm saying he can anyways because reasons"?

he can fucking teleport man. if you're this hung up on literal flight, imagine him constantly teleporting to the same spot or something. he can fucking summon a hurricane man. imagine him using winds to make him hover. there are a million ways he could get around this, and again, HERE BEFORE THE EARTH WAS


---

NFUN posted...

this is the worst argument of the series

is it really worse than "maxwell can't be strong because of his artstyle"


---

Hbthebattle posted...

The problem is that Hades has several ways of technical victories but Death has no way to actually get rid of him

Death slapping Hades with his scythe seems far more likely to be viable than this asinine ring-out argument. the third most powerful creature in a universe where the answer to "which mythology is right?" is "yes", and he'll lose because he was never explicitly shown to fly, when his corporeal body is certainly more a projection/concentration of his power than anything physical anyway

---

Hbthebattle posted...

is it really worse than "maxwell can't be strong because of his artstyle"

...second worst

---

We could always go back to "Hades annoys Death into conceding sometime over the literal eternity that this match takes place"

or "Hades and Death eventually strike up a deal and Death leaves the match on his own terms"

or again, "Hades eats Death, the end"

I'd kind of like it if we could go back to one of those, the 'destroy the arena' argument wasn't even a huge thing in the first place and the more we focus on it the less fun this match gets

---

NFUN posted...

As for the metaphysical implications of Death being in the match... I don't think Hades would be able to trap him like that. Confinement in Supernatural basically has two principles: ritual and power. In general, stronger beings > lesser beings in regards to repressing powers (eg, a lot of the stronger creatures can exorcise demons just through strength, and Death can be bound naturally by God and Amara) and rituals/artifacts can make up the difference (eg, chants let humans exorcise demons and the ring lets Lucifer bind Death). Hades won't have any specific ritual to bind Death, and he certainly isn't more powerful than him, so I doubt his stomach would restrain Death's omnipresence (for a feat, see Death being able to freely enter the cage meant to bind Lucifer). Likewise, it seems unlikely that people would stop dying while he's "in" the arena, since he's everywhere.

---

Additionally, if the annoyance is just Hades being obnoxious, Death is old, probably more-or-less infinitely patient to not change his behaviors in response to something like this, and I'm sure capable of ignoring him. If it's something impactful like the genocide suggestion, I've addressed that at least in part.

I've also, like, addressed the deal in my first post of the topic

---

There is evidence of binding in Kid Icarus, at the very least. Decent amount of full Uprising plot spoilers:

There's a thing called the Chaos Kin, which was sealed away inside of the moon. It's supposedly got power to "surpass the gods", yet was sealed by the Gods of the KI universe in the moon. It then possessed Palutena and put Pit's soul into a ring for a couple years while it tried blowing up humanity. Hades kinda just chilled and let it happen because a LOT of people were dying, which was good business for him.

At the very least, there is evidence that weaker gods can overtake stronger gods in KI. Does that necessarily entirely equate to Supernatural? Not entirely, but man, I'm trying to find a result more compelling than "maybe Hades' magic stomach might constitute a temporary suspension of death, causing universal chaos for a bit, and it's easier to just let him have the W than to try to fight a battle neither can win". Because that's the one I find the next most likely to "eternal stalemate".

---

I just generally don't think Death being the last man standing in Supernatural means anything, honestly

His authority is just death and Hades' authority covers that. I have no reason to think he can override the latter, and the latter is a better combatant, so voting for him is just sensible imo.

---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I just generally don't think Death being the last man standing in Supernatural means anything, honestly

His authority is just death and Hades' authority covers that. I have no reason to think he can override the latter, and the latter is a better combatant, so voting for him is just sensible imo.

What is Hades's authority, exactly? I'm looking it up, and it seems that his authority isn't "death" so much as "souls" (which makes sense for the underworld). If anything, Hades seems comparable to Lucifer

---

As far as I know, his authority is the Underworld. Everything connected to it belongs to him. It's why I think Death trying to reap him just leads to a no-sell. 'Oh no, my soul will go to the underworld! Whatever shall I do aside from reclaiming what is mine from my domain, hmm?'.

---

I don't think Death can reap Hades which is why I didn't argue it, but I also don't think Hades has any authority over Death.

And I maintain that Death killing (or incapacitating in his attempt) Hades is at least slightly plausible, more so than "Hades eats an omnipresent being", "Hades annoys Death to death", "Hades destroys the arena and makes Death just give up[?]" and "Hades, who has nothing to offer, strikes a deal with Death". This seems like nothing other than a draw to me

---

bumo

---

Draw

---

NFUN posted...

I don't think Death can reap Hades which is why I didn't argue it, but I also don't think Hades has any authority over Death.

yeah

draw
---