Current Events > No investigation, No right to speak

(+) Yeah! (+)

De re free speech is still a concrete example of free speech in the world, so not quite. Free speech can be STIFLED but it still clearly exists, there are degrees of it it. I gave you examples you chose to ignore. You can't say it doesnt exist when there are political documents saying it does.

you're saying that people are deprived of free speech AND free speech doesnt exist? Sounds like a contradiction:

if it can be stifled, and has always been stifled no matter the circumstances, then it is not free speech. the agora is limited to freedmen and citizens, the press limited to those who could afford to run or were allowed to run it, the wive's gossip to the speech deemed acceptable between the wives, etc.

it exist as an ideal and nothing more.

Re: governments being extra-moral entities
well that is a different subject. At the end of the day people dont want genocide and look down on leaders who promote it...

indeed. but everywhere in the world, the government, authority or society, dictates free speech to the degree of which that body finds acceptable. there is no place on this earth outside of the mind (in the ideal) where one can have free speech, and even then it is limited to what you know and have been exposed to. this is the material perspective.

Such a rule exists to control people, it's not to the benefit of the citizenry

a rule dictating that a science teacher cannot preach non-material, anti-scientific beliefs to a child is to that child's and the world's benefit. individual rights do not outweigh the collective.

Le_seuI___dieu posted...

it exist as an ideal and nothing more.

Ideas are concepts with objective existence, I think Hegel gets it's more correct than Kant. Kant also uses a learned Sage in a novel as ideal to show that some ideals, do, kind of exist.

Saying stifled free speech is the same as the non existence of free speech is like saying a dying man was never alive

...

Also, utilitarian logic has a scope and scale problem

Your rule works for doctors, but it assumes investigation is always an available route.

If you just want to say speculation is lame then make a Wittgenstein or Carnap topic dude

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

What about the Cultural Revolution?

It is a contentious debate among Marxists. I have not done enough investigation and therefore have no right to speak, but I am inclined to agree with Deng Xiaoping, who stated its ultra-left nature did much to stagnate china's development, and thus was one of mao's greatest mistakes.

it's occurrence though can be explained through careful examination of its surrounding context and history of the CPC. but like I said, I have not done enough investigation.

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Ideas are concepts with objective existence, I think Hegel gets it's more correct than Kant. Kant also uses a learned Sage in a novel as ideal to show that some ideals, do, kind of exist.

Saying stifled free speech is the same as the non existence of free speech is like saying a dying man was never alive

...

Also, utilitarian logic has a scope and scale problem

Your rule works for doctors, but it assumes investigation is always an available route.

If you just want to say speculation is lame then make a Wittgenstein or Carnap topic dude

i do not deny that ideals exist and impact the way we act and think, i have admitted as much. but there has never been free speech as we define it in society, much like there has never been a living man on mars there has never been a dead one either. we can imagine as much but it does not exist in concreto and is thus useless to a materialist.

you have a good understanding of philosophy and dialectics but fail to accept that our ideals exist only as such and do not apply exactly to the real world.

Le_seuI___dieu posted...

there is no place on this earth outside of the mind (in the ideal) where one can have free speech, and even then it is limited to what you know and have been exposed to. this is the material perspective.

Yeah, I'm gonna start repeating myself but abstract objects dont map perfectly onto the world of phenomena. There is no perfect free speech in the sense there is no perfect triangle in nature. Triangles can still exist though.

If free speech is an ideal, investigation would be too, anyway, so why fight

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Yeah, I'm gonna start repeating myself but abstract objects dont map perfectly onto the world of phenomena. There is no perfect free speech in the sense there is no perfect triangle in nature. Triangles can still exist though.

If free speech is an ideal, investigation would be too, anyway, so why fight

there is a much deeper philosophical discussion here however it would be limited due to the nature of this platform, but an investigation is a gathering of facts, knowledge and experimentations. the things we learn from an investigation, such as the nature of an object, the function of a bodily organ, the weather cycle, etc. have material effects. it is true we can never fully understand no matter how through our investigation is; but there is still much value in doing it. elsewise, what right would we have to speak without doing the most basic of work?

shockthemonkey posted...

A tankie who cant even follow their own rules, how unusual

what do you mean? I have not done enough investigation on the matter, and am therefore refraining to speak foolishly. you should do likewise.

shockthemonkey posted...

...you realize your post didnt end where I cut it off, right?

yes? can you read? I said I was inclined to agree with Deng Xiaoping, but I have not done enough investigation to speak authoritatively myself, which is why I appealed to someone who is.

Le_seuI___dieu posted...

yes? can you read? I said I was inclined to agree with Deng Xiaoping, but I have not done enough investigation to speak authoritatively myself, which is why I appealed to someone who is.

Weird, you cried when people did that same thing in regards to the great leap forward.

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Why're people arguing with a PRC shill?

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Le_seuI___dieu posted...

there is a much deeper philosophical discussion here

That being?

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

That being?

Who knows, but you sure as hell aren't going to be having it with him.

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FlameTurtle posted...

Weird, you cried when people did that same thing in regards to the great leap forward.

because they have done no investigation, and have no credible authoritative sources, and therefore have no right to speak. I have done much more research on Deng Xiaoping, someone who was in a high leadership position at the time, than these anti-communists have in their entire lives. I respect his position as one that is good despite not having studied the minutiae of the CR.

Le_seuI___dieu posted...

I respect his position as one that is good despite not having studied the minutiae of the CR.

But you haven't done any investigation, so I guess that you need to shut the fuck up.

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FlameTurtle posted...

Who knows, but you sure as hell aren't going to be having it with him.

I really wanna know what is a layer above/below the abstract objects discussion...

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Tc, do you think the people's republic of China is a commendable form of government that we should replicate and model?

@Le_seuI___dieu

MedeaLysistrata posted...

That being?

what constitutes an investigation, what use is the knowledge we gain from investigating, what should be investigated, when do we become authoritative enough to speak on the matter, how do we reconcile the ideal with the material during investigation, etc.

VII. THE TECHNIQUE OF INVESTlGATION

1. Hold fact-finding meetings and undertake investigation through discussions.
This is the only way to get near the truth, the only way to draw conclusions. It is easy to commit mistakes if you do not hold fact-finding meetings for investigation through discussions but simply rely on one individual relating his own experience. You cannot possibly draw more or less correct conclusions at such meetings if you put questions casually instead of raising key-questions for discussion.

2. What kind of people should attend the fact-finding meetings?
They should be people well acquainted with social and economic conditions. As far as age is concerned, older people are best, because they are rich in experience and not only know what is going an but understand the causes and effects. Young people with experience of struggle should also be included, because they have progressive ideas and sharp eyes. As far as occupation is concerned, there should be workers, peasants, merchants, intellectuals, and occasionally soldiers, and sometimes even vagrants. Naturally, when a particular subject is being looked into, those who have nothing to do with it need not be present. For example, workers, peasants and students need not attend when commerce is the subject of investigation.

3. Which is better, a large fact-finding meeting or a small one?
That depends on the investigator's ability to conduct a meeting. If he is good at it, a meeting of as many as a dozen or even twenty or more people can be called. A large meeting has its advantages; from the answers you get fairly accurate statistics (e. g., in finding out the percentage of poor peasants in the total peasant population) and fairly correct conclusions (e.g., in finding out whether equal or differentiated land redistribution is better ). Of course, it has its disadvantages too; unless you are skillful in conducting meetings, you will find it difficult to keep order. So the number of. people attending a meeting depends on the competence of the investigator. However, the minimum is three, or otherwise the information obtained will be too limited to correspond to the real situation.

4. Prepare a detailed outline for the investigation.
A detailed outline' should be prepared beforehand, and the investigator should ask questions according to the outline, with those present at the meeting giving their answers. Any points which are unclear or doubtful should be put up for discussion. The detailed outline should include main subjects and sub-headings and also detailed items. For instance, taking commerce as a main subject, it can have such sub-headings as cloth, grain, other necessities and medicinal herbs; again, under cloth, there can be such detailed items as calico, homespun and silk and satin.

5. Personal participation.
Everyone with responsibility for giving leadership from the chairman of the township government to the chairman of the central government, from the detachment leader to the commander-in-chief, from the secretary of a Party branch to the general secretary must personally undertake investigation into the specific social and economic conditions and not merely rely on reading reports. For investigation and reading reports are two entirely different things.

6. Probe deeply.
Anyone new to investigation work should make one or two thorough investigations in order to gain full knowledge of a particular place (say, a village or a town) of a particular problem (say, the problem of grain or currency). Deep probing into a particular place or problem will make future investigation of other places or problems easier.

7. Make your own notes.
The investigator should not only preside at fact-finding meetings and give proper guidance to those present but should also make his own notes and record the results himself. To have others do it for him is no good.

WingsOfGood posted...

Tc, do you think the people's republic of China is a commendable form of government that we should replicate and model?

@Le_seuI___dieu

It is never wise to replicate one countries method of achieving socialism. each country has its own unique circumstances and thus has to examine and apply theoretical learnings to them accordingly. Any marxist and even the CPC will tell you as much.

but I do believe Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is an extremely successful model considering the PRC is on track to achieve socialism by 2050, meaning they've gone from a feudal agrian society to post-capitalist within the span of a century.

They've also begun to export elements of SWCC to other countries, most notably those in Africa through the BRI, which is helping build up industrial capability so that these countries too can begin the transition from colonial, to capitalist, and then socialist.

Le_seuI___dieu posted...

but I do believe Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is an extremely successful model

Le_seuI___dieu posted...

Estimates of deaths during the the Great Leap Forward range from as high as 46 million

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@FlameTurtle

once again, no investigation, no right to speak.

you do not even know the different between the Mao Zedong Thought era and SWCC era which transpired decades after the GLF.

Why do you feel compelled to speak foolishly?

this is a lame gimmick bro

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Le_seuI___dieu posted...

but I do believe Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is an extremely successful model considering the PRC is on track to achieve socialism by 2050, meaning they've gone from a feudal agrian society to post-capitalist within the span of a century.

1. can't use google or un-monitored internet lest they read things the government wants to hide
2. cannot criticize the government or they either die or go to a prison camp
3. life is heavily monitored such that cameras are everywhere allowing the government to spy on them
4. social credit is now a thing where the government can force society to ostracize a particular person or they too will be ostracized

successful model? of tyranny perhaps

Sounds like a great philosophy. Definitely not a means to simply use "no investigation" as an excuse to silence anyone you don't want to deal with.

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Le_seuI___dieu posted...

no right to speak.

Weird, because I'm still here.

Cry more about it.

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Panthera posted...

Sounds like a great philosophy. Definitely not a means to simply use "no investigation" as an excuse to silence anyone you don't want to deal with.

definitely not.

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WingsOfGood posted...

1. can't use google or un-monitored internet lest they read things the government wants to hide
2. cannot criticize the government or they either die or go to a prison camp
3. life is heavily monitored such that cameras are everywhere allowing the government to spy on them
4. social credit is now a thing where the government can force society to ostracize a particular person or they too will be ostracized
successful model? of tyranny perhaps

you have not done the most basic of investigation and instead repeat Five eyes/CIA propoganda.

1. this is a complete lie. Chinese citizens have their own internet completely separate from western world because the west is extremely reactionary toward China, case in point the comments in this thread. Even then, anyone in China can access western media through usage of a VPN, which are plenty abundant.
2. they can criticize the government. Maoists and ultra-leftists commonly criticize the CPC for being revisionist, reactionary or too lenient on the Chinese bourgeoisie. likewise, worker union ship in china is extremely high, much higher than the U.S. in fact, and workers often argue and stage protest/strikes.
3. life is heavily monitored here too, if you haven't noticed. the CPC makes sure reactionary elements and corrupt officials do not misuse, abuse or attempt to destroy Chinese socialism. Much like in the U.S. where the feds infiltrate communist organizations in attempts to destroy them.
4. social credit is much more akin to a public record/credit score system, which is applicable to citizens, corporations and gov officials, and even then, it was only tried in certain provinces of china like Shanghai.

FlameTurtle posted...

definitely not.

blocked then. you have no right to speak in my topics.
@FlameTurtle

Still here dude

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I can't believe that the tankie is this sensitive

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shockthemonkey posted...

lmao let me translate these answers

1. nu uh doesnt count even though its true
2. nu uh you can totally criticize in pre-approved ways
3. Yeah thats true and Im gonna pretend its a good thing
4. Not all of China has social credit so

quick, ask him about the uighurs

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bad faith anti-communist rhetoric is unacceptable. do your investigation, until then you have no right to speak.

FlameTurtle posted...

quick, ask him about the uighurs

Hahahaha

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V. THE AIM OF SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC INVESTIGATION IS TO ARRIVE AT A CORRECT APPRAISAL OF CLASS FORCES AND THEN TO FORMULATE CORRECT TACTICS FOR THE STRUGGLE

This is our answer to the question: Why do we have to investigate social and economic conditions? Accordingly, the object of our investigation is all the social classes and not fragmentary social phenomena. Of late, the comrades in the Fourth Army of the Red Army have generally given attention to the work of investigation, [3] but the method many of them employ is wrong. The results of their investigation are therefore as trivial as a grocer's accounts, or resemble the many strange tales a country bumpkin hears when he comes to town, or are like a distant view of a populous city from a mountain top. This kind of investigation is of little use and cannot achieve our main purpose. Our main purpose is to learn the political and economic situation of the various social classes. The outcome of our investigation should be a picture of the present situation of each class and the ups and downs of its development. For example, when we investigate the composition of the peasantry, not only must we know the number of owner-peasants, semi-owner peasants and tenant-peasants, who are differentiated according to tenancy relationships, but more especially we must know the number of rich peasants, middle peasants and poor peasants, who are differentiated according to class or stratum. When we investigate the composition of the merchants, not only must we know the number in each trade, such as grain, clothing, medicinal herbs, etc., but more especially we must know the number of small merchants, middle merchants and big merchants. We should investigate not only the state of each trade, but more especially the class relations within it. We should investigate the relationships not only between the different trades but more especially between the different classes. Our chief method of investigation must be to dissect the different social classes, the ultimate purpose being to understand their interrelations, to arrive at a correct appraisal of class forces and then to formulate the correct tactics for the struggle, defining which classes constitute the main force in the revolutionary struggle, which classes are to be won over as allies and which classes are to be overthrown. This is our sole purpose.

What are the social classes requiring investigation?

They are:

The industrial proletariat
The handicraft workers
The farm labourers
The poor peasants
The urban poor
The lumpen-Proletariat
The master handicraftsmen
The small merchants
The middle peasants
The rich peasants
The landlords
The commercial bourgeoisie
The industrial bourgeoisie

In our investigation we should give attention to the state of all these classes or strata. Only the industrial proletariat and industrial bourgeoisie are absent in the areas where we are now working, and we constantly come across all the others. Our tactics of struggle are tactics in relation to all these classes and strata.

Another serious shortcoming in our past investigations has been the undue stress on the countryside to the neglect of the towns, so that many comrades have always been vague about our tactics towards the urban poor and the commercial bourgeoisie. The development of the struggle has enabled us to leave the mountains for the plains.[4] We have descended physically, but we are still up in the mountains mentally. We must understand the towns as well as the countryside, or we shall be unable to meet the needs of the revolutionary struggle.

VI. VICTORY IN CHINA'S REVOLUTIONARY STRUGGLE WILL DEPEND ON THE CHENESE COMRADES' UNDERSTANDING OF CHINESE CONDITIONS
The aim of our struggle is to attain socialism via the stage of democracy. In this task, the first step is to complete the democratic revolution by winning the majority of the working class and arousing the peasant masses and the urban poor for the overthrow of the landlord class, imperialism and the Kuomintang regime. The next step is to carry out the socialist revolution, which will follow on the development of this struggle. The fulfilment of this great revolutionary task is no simple or easy job and will depend entirely on correct and firm tactics on the part of the proletarian party. If its tactics of struggle are wrong, or irresolute and wavering, the revolution will certainly suffer temporary defeat. It must be borne in mind that the bourgeois parties, too, constantly discuss their tactics of struggle. They are considering how to spread reformist influences among the working class so as to mislead it and turn it. away from Communist Party leadership, how to get the rich peasants to put down the uprisings of the poor peasants and how to organize gangsters to suppress the revolutionary struggles. In a situation when the class struggle grows increasingly acute and is waged at close quarters, the proletariat has to depend for its victory entirely on the correct and firm tactics of struggle of its own party, the Communist Party. A Communist Party's correct and unswerving tactics of struggle can in no circumstance be created by a few people sitting in an office; they emerge in the course of mass struggle, that is, through actual experience. Therefore, we must at all times study social conditions and make practical investigations. Those comrades who are inflexible, conservative, formalistic and groundlessly optimistic think that the present tactics of struggle are perfect, that the "book of documents"[5] of the Party's Sixth National Congress guarantees lasting victory, and that one can always be victorious merely by adhering to the established methods. These ideas are absolutely wrong and have nothing in common with the idea that Communists should create favourable new situations through struggle; they represent a purely conservative line. Unless it is completely discarded, this line will cause great losses to the revolution and do harm to these comrades themselves. There are obviously some comrades in our Red Army who are content to leave things as they are, who do not seek to understand anything thoroughly and are groundlessly optimistic, and they spread the fallacy that "this is proletarian". They eat their fill and sit dozing in their offices all day long without ever moving a step and going out among the masses to investigate. Whenever they open their mouths, their platitudes make people sick. To awaken these comrades we must raise our voices and cry out to them:

Change your conservative ideas without delay!

Replace them by progressive and militant Communist ideas!

Get into the struggle!

Go among the masses and investigate the facts!

Tc has done no investigation.

Perhaps we should mark his thread and have it deleted and he would agree that it should be deleted as he has done no investigation.

https://imgur.com/gallery/OCGuPoe

you haven't done any tc

Oh no guys, TC might block you for 15 minutes if you dont fall into lockstep with him.

Look out!

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ
#VICENewsTonight
Chinas Vanishing Muslims: Undercover In The Most Dystopian Place In The World
5,687,628 viewsJun 29, 2019
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Le_seuI___dieu posted...

https://imgur.com/gallery/OCGuPoe

Hes the guy who killed up to 46 million people, right?

Golly, I dont think I really care about anything he has to say

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Cornhuskers posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ
#VICENewsTonight
Chinas Vanishing Muslims: Undercover In The Most Dystopian Place In The World
5,687,628 viewsJun 29, 2019

Props to you Cornhuskers. You investigated this issue very well and your speech is now well received.

Cornhuskers posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ
#VICENewsTonight
Chinas Vanishing Muslims: Undercover In The Most Dystopian Place In The World
5,687,628 viewsJun 29, 2019

http://www.china-un.ch/eng/zgylhg/t1683829.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B1X8Vy9WLM&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOPM1dHA2j4&feature=youtu.be

https://thegrayzone.com/2018/08/23/un-did-not-report-china-internment-camps-uighur-muslims/

https://journal-neo.org/2018/10/24/us-fueling-terrorism-in-china/

https://journal-neo.org/2015/11/10/chinas-xinjiang-problem-made-in-usa/

https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/12/14/the-truth-behind-chinas-uyghur-problem/

https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1004884261051092993?s=21

Good Lord with this topic.

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"Mr. President, Madam High Commissioner,

We, the co-signatories to this letter, reiterate that the work of the United Nations Human Rights Council (HRC) should be conducted in an objective, transparent, non-selective, constructive, non-confrontational and non-politicized manner. We express our firm opposition to relevant countries' practice of politicizing human rights issues, by naming and shaming, and publicly exerting pressures on other countries.

We commend China's remarkable achievements in the field of human rights by adhering to the people-centered development philosophy and protecting and promoting human rights throught development. We also appreciate China's contributions to the internation human rights cause.

We take note that terrorism, separatism and religious extremism has caused enormous damage to people of all ethnic groups in Xinjiang, which has seriously infringed upon human rights, including right to life, health and development. Faced with the grave challenge of terrorism and extremism, China has undertaken a series of counter6terrorism and deradicalization measures in Xinjiand, including setting up vocational education and training centers. Now safety and security has returned to Xinjiang and the fundamental human rights of people of all ethnic groups there are safeguarded. The past three consecutive years has seen not a single terrorist attack in Xinjiang and people there enjoy a stronger sense of happiness, fulfillmentand security. We note with appreciation that human rights are respected and protected in China in the process of counter-terrorism and deradicalization.

We appreciate China's commitment to openness and transparency. China has invited a number of diplomats, international organizations officials and journalist to Xinjiang to witness the progress of the human rights cause and the outcomes of counter-terrorism and deradicalization there. What they saw and heard in Xinjiang completely contradicted what was reported in the media. We call on relevant countries to refrain from employing unfounded charges against China based on unconfirmed information before they visit Xinjiang. We urge the OHCHR, Treaty Bodies and relevant Special Procedures mandate holders to conduct their work in an objective and impartial manner according to their mandate and with true and genuinely credible information, and value the communication with member states.

We request that this letter be recorded as an official document of the 41st session of the Human Rights Council and that it be published on the OHCHR website."

https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/supporting_resources/190712_joint_counterstatement_xinjiang.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsRXsAR1Bpc

Do your investigation before thinking you have the right to speak.