Current Events > What exactly do people dislike about the Holdo Maneuver? *Star Wars spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

lilORANG posted...

The Chinese weaponized gunpowder. They had cannons and grenades and exploding arrows.

They also had rockets/weapons grade fireworks but that's besides the point. The Chinese had everything they needed an old black powder musket but they just never thought to do it.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

but they just never thought to do it.

Aint that some shit.

Hey its been a great topic. Meet back here in a month and a half? Sounds great.


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The ancient chinese actually invented the first musket, and even developed early anti tank weaponry and semi automatic rifles, they just never thought to fire it at another person.

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Chinese had hand cannons. Other cultures may have refined the idea into what we know as modern firearms but you're splitting hairs if you think Chinese never thought to create explosive propelled projectiles for battle.

And that's really distracting from the point that for Holdo to be the first person to think to ram a ship into another, the star wars universe collectively has the IQ of an infant. I used to dream up stories using lightspeed weaponry as a kid. Loads of cultures have been ramming their battle vessels into each other over the course of history. And yet nobody considered it in Star Wars? Bad writing.
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Corrupt_Power posted...

Because it's fiction, and every fight would be boring if it was two groups slinging FTL projectiles at each other

Yeah, then wouldn't it be a good idea not to include such a thing at all? To never give a reason for it?
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Slayer_22 posted...

Yeah, then wouldn't it be a good idea not to include such a thing at all? To never give a reason for it?

no because this isn't an issue for people watching it like a movie and not a math problem

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if you dont like the last jedi youre wrong and i will argue with you for 200 posts to show how wrong you are to not like it

Polycosm posted...

If the Holdo Maneuver bothers you, just tell yourself it only worked because of the Hyperspace Tracker.

The resistance doesnt have hyperspace trackers.

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Southernfatman posted...

There's never a good excuse as to why it was never done before.

"They just didn't think of it" - Really lame copout and makes no sense.
"Why would they do that?" - Death Stars and other Imperial targets. Could have saved many lives doing it that way.
"Costs" - Hyperdrives can't cost that much if even small fighters have them. The Rebel Alliance had to have financial backers. They could afford all those capital ships, but not a hyperdrive? Just use a X/Y/A wing or other ship.

The act in and of itself isn't bad, but it just opens a can of worms that introduces holes in things. It could probably still work if written better.

Why would a hyperdrive for a capital ship cost the same as the hyperdrive for a tiny fighter? They're orders of magnitude bigger and heavier. Cost would be a very real factor, it's just that in the Star Wars universe they never talk about cost or logistics because that's not what the movies are about.

Another reason why it wouldn't be used could be because, say, it might be very very easy to prevent if you're ready for it. Or you might need to totally disable the deflector shields or whatever. There are tons of plausible reasons why this wouldn't be a sustainable thing to do, but people are hell bent on hating it. Meanwhile they're comparably fine with lots of dumb stuff that came before.

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Did you guys watch the mandalorian? It was good when force stuff didn't show up. Apollo creed is in it

scar the 1 posted...

Why would a hyperdrive for a capital ship cost the same as the hyperdrive for a tiny fighter? They're orders of magnitude bigger and heavier. Cost would be a very real factor, it's just that in the Star Wars universe they never talk about cost or logistics because that's not what the movies are about.

Another reason why it wouldn't be used could be because, say, it might be very very easy to prevent if you're ready for it. Or you might need to totally disable the deflector shields or whatever. There are tons of plausible reasons why this wouldn't be a sustainable thing to do, but people are hell bent on hating it. Meanwhile they're comparably fine with lots of dumb stuff that came before.

That also adds the question, why wouldn't the First Order be ready for anything like that?

What, are you going to tell me that the First Order didn't think they'd use the equivelent of a nuke, but the Death Star did?

It just doesn't make any sense, and doesn't deserve to be in canon.
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Slayer_22 posted...

That also adds the question, why wouldn't the First Order be ready for anything like that?

What, are you going to tell me that the First Order didn't think they'd use the equivelent of a nuke, but the Death Star did?

It just doesn't make any sense, and doesn't deserve to be in canon.

Why are you expecting them to be acting like geniuses when the baddies in Star Wars have always been laughably bad or even comic relief? The droids in the prequels are literally comic relief and completely useless. The empire in RotJ gets beaten by teddybears with sticks. Why is it all of a sudden completely unbelievable that the baddies didn't imagine the Resistance would pull a move no one ever thinks to pull because it's super expensive and stupid? It's like people are hell bent on giving the other movies a pass for being just as dumb or dumber than TLJ.

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Anyway my point wasn't that that particular reason is why it's not done all the time, but rather that there are plenty of plausible reasons but people want to hate on it.

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scar the 1 posted...

Why would a hyperdrive for a capital ship cost the same as the hyperdrive for a tiny fighter? They're orders of magnitude bigger and heavier. Cost would be a very real factor, it's just that in the Star Wars universe they never talk about cost or logistics because that's not what the movies are about.

A few fighter sized ships would probably be enough or they could find some junker ship, fix/install the hyperdrive, and fill it up with bombs and boom. Or just use one they got. They're sacrificing capital ships anyway by just sending them in battle against the Death Star.

They can build giant ion cannons in their secret bases. I'm sure they can afford one or two hyperdrives.

scar the 1 posted...

Another reason why it wouldn't be used could be because, say, it might be very very easy to prevent if you're ready for it. Or you might need to totally disable the deflector shields or whatever. There are tons of plausible reasons why this wouldn't be a sustainable thing to do, but people are hell bent on hating it. Meanwhile they're comparably fine with lots of dumb stuff that came before.

Slayer_22 posted...

That also adds the question, why wouldn't the First Order be ready for anything like that?

What, are you going to tell me that the First Order didn't think they'd use the equivelent of a nuke, but the Death Star did?

It just doesn't make any sense, and doesn't deserve to be in canon.

That.

And People are hell bent on defending it as well.

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why isnt "it looked silly and didnt make sense" enough?

scar the 1 posted...

Anyway my point wasn't that that particular reason is why it's not done all the time, but rather that there are plenty of plausible reasons but people want to hate on it.

That's my feel on the whole thing - people want to hate on the sequel trilogy. That's what it ultimately boils down to.
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scar the 1 posted...

Why are you expecting them to be acting like geniuses when the baddies in Star Wars have always been laughably bad or even comic relief? The droids in the prequels are literally comic relief and completely useless. The empire in RotJ gets beaten by teddybears with sticks. Why is it all of a sudden completely unbelievable that the baddies didn't imagine the Resistance would pull a move no one ever thinks to pull because it's super expensive and stupid? It's like people are hell bent on giving the other movies a pass for being just as dumb or dumber than TLJ.

It's not stupid, at all. It's smart as hell. What are you talking about lol?

It's almost like the bad guys didn't even know it existed until that very moment, so didn't safeguard against it.

And notice, I'm not complaining about other stuff in the other movies, because I'm talking about this one specifically. Don't mistake me not liking this garbage to thinking the Ewoks doing their thing was fine and great.
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Corrupt_Power posted...

That's my feel on the whole thing - people want to hate on the sequel trilogy. That's what it ultimately boils down to.

Is this what I sound like talking about DC movies?

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Lysandear posted...

why isnt "it looked silly and didnt make sense" enough?

Because it looked awesome and did make sense.
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Corrupt_Power posted...

That's my feel on the whole thing - people want to hate on the sequel trilogy. That's what it ultimately boils down to.

So? That doesn't justify the stupid stuff in the movie. People want to hate on the prequels, doesn't make Anakin's dialogue any less stupid.
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Corrupt_Power posted...

That's my feel on the whole thing - people want to hate on the sequel trilogy. That's what it ultimately boils down to.

i dont really run into this. i mean yea ive seen the alt right clusters who are savage to this movie over dumb shit like rey or holdo existing

but what about peeps like me, who went in TLJ excited cuz we loved TFA, then left TLJ just not carin about star wars? i didnt go in wanting or even expecting to hate it. but from pretty much the first couple minutes on something felt off in my head. and after it was over i was just "welp" and went on to not consume star wars media til the past couple weeks, which i didnt even do cuz of SW but more cuz of being starved for games and shows

Corrupt_Power posted...

Because it looked awesome and did make sense.

so you just wont let peeps disagree with you on this?

Tyranthraxus posted...

Is this what I sound like talking about DC movies?

kinda yeah, except DC movies are even worse than ST star wars so it looks worse

Why is it that if you point out some flaws in the ST then you must automatically be a hater who wants to hate on it just because?

Not everybody is one of those types of SW fanboys. FFS.

Lysandear posted...

i dont really run into this. i mean yea ive seen the alt right clusters who are savage to this movie over dumb shit like rey or holdo existing

but what about peeps like me, who went in TLJ excited cuz we loved TFA, then left TLJ just not carin about star wars? i didnt go in wanting or even expecting to hate it. but from pretty much the first couple minutes on something felt off in my head. and after it was over i was just "welp" and went on to not consume star wars media til the past couple weeks, which i didnt even do cuz of SW but more cuz of being starved for games and shows

This basically.

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Corrupt_Power posted...

I refer you to my previous response:

"It's just a movie, so it doesn't need to make sense!"

If you are consistent in that Hyperdrives doesn't work offensively (As in, you've made 7 movies and TV shows and hundreds of Books and Comics without using a very obvious weapon) then that is a reasonable suspension of disbelief. If you suddenly break that suspension of disbelief for the sake of a hamfisted heroic/redemption moment, that is horrible writing. Even JJ knew it was horrible writing which is why he walked it back Ryan's garbage in Episode 9.

This is basic storytelling rules for fiction. It pisses people off because it spits in the face of what Star Wars fans have been shown since the very beginning of the series.

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Southernfatman posted...

A few fighter sized ships would probably be enough or they could find some junker ship, fix/install the hyperdrive, and fill it up with bombs and boom. Or just use one they got. They're sacrificing capital ships anyway by just sending them in battle against the Death Star.

They can build giant ion cannons in their secret bases. I'm sure they can afford one or two hyperdrives.

But now you're assuming that a fighter would have enough mass, or that it would even work vs the Death Star.

Southernfatman posted...

Why is it that if you point out some flaws in the ST then you must automatically be a hater who wants to hate on it just because?

Not everybody is one of those types of SW fanboys. FFS.

This basically.

I'm not saying you specifically are a hater but surely you're aware of the massive hate boner people have for TLJ and not other Star Wars movies that feature equally dumb fantasy space opera stunts.

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Lysandear posted...

i dont really run into this. i mean yea ive seen the alt right clusters who are savage to this movie over dumb shit like rey or holdo existing

but what about peeps like me, who went in TLJ excited cuz we loved TFA, then left TLJ just not carin about star wars? i didnt go in wanting or even expecting to hate it. but from pretty much the first couple minutes on something felt off in my head. and after it was over i was just "welp" and went on to not consume star wars media til the past couple weeks, which i didnt even do cuz of SW but more cuz of being starved for games and shows

I actually REALLY enjoyed TFA. Loved it. I even left the theater with my sister saying 'wow, I've not been this excited for Star Wars in a long time.'

I had to miss watching TLJ in theaters, so I opted to shut out everything about it until I could get to see it on Netflix(back when Disney had their deal with them lol). So, day comes. It's on Netflix. I made myself some good ass food, turned down the lights, got all comfortable, and watched. I had high af expectations, even watched Rogue One the week before in anticipation of it(and fucking loved it as well).

Then I just felt defeated. Holdo's witholding of info from Poe for no reason, the whole Casino bit, Phasma just being...pointless, Rey's parents, Kylo destroying his badass helmet, the hyperspace shitshow, Rose and Finn's weird romantic subplot despite them knowing each other for...like...2 minutes, Luke acting nothing like Luke, Luke dying after doing that stupid force projection bullshit, Snoke's death.

I haven't seen the newest movie, don't really want to. That one movie just...killed so much interest for me.

And I LIKED the prequels. I can deal with stupid bullshit for some good stuff. This was just...way too much. Eh.
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my brother had never seen a star wars movie and i would never have expected him to like it

we went to the midnight screening of The Force Awakens and we both thought it was great. really awesome movie, to this day i disagree with the rehash complaints. i mean it obviously recycled story beats but i had no problem with any of it

his streak of liking star wars ended after 1 movie lol

They didn't? That was the coolest thing in the last jedi imo.

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TFA literally had the same stupid violations of established hyperspace rules where Han both went into hyperspace from inside that other ship, and went out of hyperspace inside of the shield of Starkiller base. And that was after a lot of other Star Wars material (lesser canon though) had established that ships are pulled out of hyperspace automatically when they're close to a gravity well, hence interdictor cruisers. So it more egregiously broke the established rules.

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At the end of the day, it's fiction, built in a large sci-fi universe with infinite possibilities. You can make convincing arguments that are true to the lore and canon on any side of any plot point or contentious element. You can go ahead and dislike it, but your arguments aren't any more valid than those on the other side.

Ultimately, it's not your universe, no matter how in-tune you feel with it. I really disliked Rogue One because it completely lacked the awe and grandeur that every Star Wars had up to that point. In my opinion, it was a fine sci-fi movie, but fundamentally missed what differentiates Star Wars in the first place. And that's fine, because ultimately it is not my universe and not every single piece of it has to conform to my whims.
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PMarth2002 posted...

They didn't? That was the coolest thing in the last jedi imo.

i really liked how kylo killed snoke but i dislike the fact that snoke died. but showing a lightsaber used that way was as cool to me as kylo freezing the laser in TFA

you guys wanna know a piece of Star Wars media that's actually much worse than anything ive seen aside from maybe the prequels? not counting holiday special btw

Fallen Order. Game doesn't do anything well and people lapped it up. Now we're gonna get a ton a shitty low effort EA singleplayer star wars games. what a joke. joke town.

Lysandear posted...

i really liked how kylo killed snoke but i dislike the fact that snoke died. but showing a lightsaber used that way was as cool to me as kylo freezing the laser in TFA

Kylo freezing the blaster actually has precedent as a light side power. That's why Darth Vader wasn't able to do it in ESB.

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scar the 1 posted...

But now you're assuming that a fighter would have enough mass, or that it would even work vs the Death Star.

I imagine even if they're smaller, the speed and force would still be quite high. Still a better strategy than letting them get picked off by turrets and tie fighters.

scar the 1 posted...

TFA literally had the same stupid violations of established hyperspace rules where Han both went into hyperspace from inside that other ship, and went out of hyperspace inside of the shield of Starkiller base. And that was after a lot of other Star Wars material (lesser canon though) had established that ships are pulled out of hyperspace automatically when they're close to a gravity well, hence interdictor cruisers. So it more egregiously broke the established rules.

I didn't like that either. My thoughts when I saw that were "why didn't they do that before with the Endor moon?" Yeah it's a fantasy sci fi movie, but every story needs some consistency of logic.

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Lysandear posted...

you guys wanna know a piece of Star Wars media that's actually much worse than anything ive seen aside from maybe the prequels? not counting holiday special btw

Fallen Order. Game doesn't do anything well and people lapped it up. Now we're gonna get a ton a shitty low effort EA singleplayer star wars games. what a joke. joke town.

This is the WORST take Ive read in some time.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Kylo freezing the blaster actually has precedent as a light side power. That's why Darth Vader wasn't able to do it in ESB.

i dont really care about all this non-movie fake force stuff. i dont see why freezing something is exclusive to light or dark, that's stupid af

to me vader hand blocked the blaster bolt in Empire just to flex on Han but coulda frozen the bolt just as well

Lysandear posted...

my brother had never seen a star wars movie and i would never have expected him to like it

we went to the midnight screening of The Force Awakens and we both thought it was great. really awesome movie, to this day i disagree with the rehash complaints. i mean it obviously recycled story beats but i had no problem with any of it

his streak of liking star wars ended after 1 movie lol

I always said 'it was like a new hope, +2'. 2 droids, 2 protagonists, 2 antagonists, etc. Just as a joke. I hardly minded it, tbh.

Corrupt_Power posted...

At the end of the day, it's fiction, built in a large sci-fi universe with infinite possibilities. You can make convincing arguments that are true to the lore and canon on any side of any plot point or contentious element. You can go ahead and dislike it, but your arguments aren't any more valid than those on the other side.

Ultimately, it's not your universe, no matter how in-tune you feel with it. I really disliked Rogue One because it completely lacked the awe and grandeur that every Star Wars had up to that point. In my opinion, it was a fine sci-fi movie, but fundamentally missed what differentiates Star Wars in the first place. And that's fine, because ultimately it is not my universe and not every single piece of it has to conform to my whims.

Okay, cool.

So were aren't allowed to dislike something in the canon, or not allowed to critique it, because it's not our universe? What point are you making?

Also Rogue One was specifically not a big thing, it's a small thing. It's not trying to be a big thing lol. It's it's own, small thing. Hell, did you hate Episode 5 because, in essence, it was mostly a small set of events tied together?
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Legend has it the writers didn't know what to name this trick when they wrote the scene, then they heard some teenagers outside playing HORSE on their skateboards and one of them shouted "Bet you can't do that!" and the other said "Hold on to my drink!" and the writers thought "Hold on to... Holdon... Holdo!" and this crazy maneuver officially had a name.

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i may watch rogue one someday but it didnt pass my 10 minute test. if the first 10 minutes dont get me hooked then the movie is most likely bad

Science fiction is fine as long as the rules are defined and consistent. This broke the consistency.

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PMarth2002 posted...

They didn't?

Yeah, clearly.

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Pogo_Marimo posted...

If you are consistent in that Hyperdrives doesn't work offensively (As in, you've made 7 movies and TV shows and hundreds of Books and Comics without using a very obvious weapon) then that is a reasonable suspension of disbelief

This is completely wrong though. Just because it was never addressed does not mean it can't exist. You would have an argument if in literally any of the movie canon so far they had, even in a throwaway line, said it was infeasible or violated some galactic treaty or somesuch. But it's never even conceptualized. Does it make it look odd that no one else ever thought of it? Sure. But it in no way "establishes" that hyperdrives aren't allowed to be used offensively.
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Lysandear posted...

i may watch rogue one someday but it didnt pass my 10 minute test. if the first 10 minutes dont get me hooked then the movie is most likely bad

Rogue One was cool, imo. It starts off kinda slow, but it's just a really well done(and honestly kinda sad) story.
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remember at-sts?

You can absolutely dislike the Holdo maneuver, it's just weird that a lot of people dislike specifically that while giving a lot of other stupid shit a pass, which is weird to me.
I absolutely disliked a lot of stuff in several of the movies. Hyperspace being so inconsistent and the distance between solar systems being really vague was always one of them, and frankly TLJ moved that in a direction I didn't like. But it was already headed there and it's not like TLJ was the main offender in the first place.

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Lysandear posted...

i really liked how kylo killed snoke but i dislike the fact that snoke died. but showing a lightsaber used that way was as cool to me as kylo freezing the laser in TFA

I was referring to the holdo maneuver that the topic was about. I didn't read the rest of the topic.

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Lysandear posted...

showing a lightsaber used that way was as cool

One more thing...

This is how Yoda should have fought Dooku in Episode 2. Like, no jumping around at all. Just yoda swinging around a floating lightsaber with just the force while Dooku is fighting it off by hand.

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Yea that'd actually be kinda neat. The choreography would need to be done really well for it to not look stupid tho

PMarth2002 posted...

I was referring to the holdo maneuver that the topic was about. I didn't read the rest of the topic.

I was just offering up my personal cool moment from tlj

Lysandear posted...

Yea that'd actually be kinda neat. The choreography would need to be done really well for it to not look stupid tho

As opposed to how it actually turned out to you mean, with a bunch of close-ups on Christopher Lee making faces?

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