Current Events > Sweden's economy "the least harmed in Europe".

(+) Yeah! (+)

teepan95 posted...

Seems like the lockdown had positive effects on health too...

of course, WFH will be the first thing declared "non-viable" once the apocalypse ends, despite two or three months of being more productive.

nnu en "mste frsvara Sverigebilden" trd?

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Frolex posted...

Sweden has been one of the slowest countries in stabilizing infection rates, and have experienced outsized levels of mortality and hospitalization through this pandemic. The fact that the haven't fucked up as badly as nations run by fascists is not a positive success story

All countries with more deaths per capita than Sweden are democratic European nations though. The countries run by dictators hardly got reliable numbers on the other hand. Sweden has included nursing home cases and deaths from the start unlike several Western nations even.

teepan95 posted...

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/corona-lockdown-weniger-stress-mehr-familie-16871774.html

Seems like the lockdown had positive effects on health too...

That is good.
A large chunk of Swedes who can work from home has done so since March since it is a guideline from the Agency of Public Health. So it isnt a practice solely tied to lockdowns.

ROBANN_88 posted...

nnu en "mste frsvara Sverigebilden" trd?

Det finns utlnningar som tror att vi ligger dda i drivor p gatorna och att ekonomin trots det hamnat p en grekisk niv. Ingetdera stmmer s nyansering behvs helt klart.

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BalanceLost posted...

All countries with more deaths per capita than Sweden are democratic European nations though. The countries run by dictators hardly got reliable numbers on the other hand. Sweden has included nursing home cases and deaths from the start unlike several Western nations even.

Did all the countries that didn't include nursing homes in their earlier numbers all jump up to Sweden's numbers when they did? Did they all take as long stabilize their infection rates?

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Frolex posted...

Did all the countries that didn't include nursing homes in their earlier numbers all jump up to Sweden's numbers when they did? Did they all take as long stabilize their infection rates?

They have not included those deaths at all in their covid-numbers if what Ive read in the news is correct. Those simply put them under regular deaths.

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BalanceLost posted...

They have not included those deaths at all in their covid-numbers if what Ive read in the news is correct. Those simply put them under regular deaths.

gonna need a source on which nations are actively and willfully excluding all listed COVID cases in nursing homes from death and infection rate figures

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Frolex posted...

gonna need a source on which nations are actively and willfully excluding all listed COVID cases in nursing homes from death and infection rate figures

Im not gonna hunt for more sources but European countries Ive seen listed before regarding this are Spain, Italy, Denmark, the UK and the Netherlands.

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BalanceLost posted...

Im not gonna hunt for more sources but European countries Ive seen listed before regarding this are Spain, Italy, Denmark, the UK and the Netherlands.

All of the countries you listed are collecting data from deaths related to nursing homes
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52188820
https://ltccovid.org/2020/06/01/italy-data-on-mortality-of-nursing-home-residents-and-staff-linked-to-the-covid-19-pandemic/
https://ltccovid.org/2020/05/28/new-country-report-the-covid-19-long-term-care-situation-in-denmark/
https://ltccovid.org/2020/05/28/updated-report-the-impact-of-covid-19-on-long-term-care-in-the-nethrlands/

you're going to need a better argument than "every one else is cheating by listing their nursing home deaths as zero"

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Swedish lives certainly weren't the least harmed
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Frolex posted...

All of the countries you listed are collecting data from deaths related to nursing homes
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52188820
https://ltccovid.org/2020/06/01/italy-data-on-mortality-of-nursing-home-residents-and-staff-linked-to-the-covid-19-pandemic/
https://ltccovid.org/2020/05/28/new-country-report-the-covid-19-long-term-care-situation-in-denmark/
https://ltccovid.org/2020/05/28/updated-report-the-impact-of-covid-19-on-long-term-care-in-the-nethrlands/

you're going to need a better argument than "every one else is cheating by listing their nursing home deaths as zero"

They are listing ones happening after a certain point, sure. But not previously. Some of your links says so themselves.

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BalanceLost posted...

They are listing ones happening after a certain point, sure. But not previously. Some of your links says so themselves.

So like I asked earlier, did they all have the same outsized infection, hospitalization and death rates as sweden did when they listed them?

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Frolex posted...

So like I asked earlier, did they all have the same outsized infection, hospitalization and death rates as sweden did when they listed them?

Some have more and some less than Sweden but since they dont include all cases from the beginning of the pandemic you cannot compare properly. It would be like Sweden not counting the deaths and infections recorded at nursing homes during March and/or April. The total number would be smaller for us. These forgotten cases are people in different countries who didnt get admitted to a hospital and therefore are not included in the number of infections, hospitalisations and deaths.

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BalanceLost posted...

Some have more and some less than Sweden but since they dont include all cases from the beginning of the pandemic you cannot compare properly. It would be like Sweden not counting the deaths and infections recorded at nursing homes during March and/or April. The total number would be smaller for us. These forgotten cases are people in different countries who didnt get admitted to a hospital and therefore are not included in the number of infections, hospitalisations and deaths.

No nation has been 100% on top of keep track of all of their cases from the entire period of first publicized case of covid to today. You can make the claim that you "cannot properly compare" literally any two nations covid numbers. The fact of the matter is the global community is doing the best they can with the data they have, and the numbers we have now are about the best we're going to get given what data we currently have available, and we're using that paint an accurate picture as feasibly possible of how the pandemic has impacted the world . The idea that the disproportionate impact coivd has had on sweden can just be entirely explained away by a difference in statistical counting of one factor is just not something that's borne out in the data.

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ah, the old "it just looks bad cause we're so much better at counting than everyone else.
it's not that we're bad, it's just our excellence shining through"

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Frolex posted...

No nation has been 100% on top of keep track of all of their cases from the entire period of first publicized case of covid to today. You can make the claim that you "cannot properly compare" literally any two nations covid numbers. The fact of the matter is the global community is doing the best they can with the data they have, and the numbers we have now are about the best we're going to get given what data we currently have available, and we're using that paint an accurate picture as feasibly possible of how the pandemic has impacted the world . The idea that the disproportionate impact coivd has had on sweden can just be entirely explained away by a difference in statistical counting of one factor is just not something that's borne out in the data.

Yes, we can both agree that we will never get the true picture since the accuracies of counting greatly vary between nations. I have never said it can be entirely explained by that single factor but if you wanna compare countries death rates, like you are doing, then it is of importance with nursing home deaths since international scientists agree most nations with care homes will have many deaths in them.

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BalanceLost posted...

Yes, we can both agree that we will never get the true picture since the accuracies of counting greatly vary between nations. I have never said it can be entirely explained by that single factor but if you wanna compare countries death rates, like you are doing, then it is of importance with nursing home deaths since international scientists agree most nations with care homes will have many deaths in them.

It's not the i'm trying to hold sweden to one nation, or even one area of the world and saying there's a problem. This issue is, in the aggregate, sweden's numbers have spiked higher and their mitigation of infection rates has lagged compared to other nations who have managed get their numbers under control. There's nothing in that data to show that not just nursing home, but just specifically the way theyve tracked infections in them are the primary cause of that.

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i still haven't seen a single person use facemasks in this country. at all.
there's been absolutely no effort for it whatsoever. myself included.

hell, i don't even know where to get them, really

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Frolex posted...

It's not the i'm trying to hold sweden to one nation, or even one area of the world and saying there's a problem. This issue is, in the aggregate, sweden's numbers have spiked higher and their mitigation of infection rates has lagged compared to other nations who have managed get their numbers under control. There's nothing in that data to show that not just nursing home, but just specifically the way theyve tracked infections in them are the primary cause of that.

There are definitely several countries who have done better regarding both number of infections and deaths but there are also several nations who have done worse. Some despite having aggressive lockdowns. Regarding Swedish deaths it is nursing homes who matter though. That is where we as a nation have failed. The cases out in society have had far milder outcomes.

ROBANN_88 posted...

i still haven't seen a single person use facemasks in this country. at all.
there's been absolutely no effort for it whatsoever. myself included.

hell, i don't even know where to get them, really

I use them and I have seen a few others but it really angers me how few we are. I work in healthcare so maybe that is why Im using them.

You buy them at apotek - all chains should have them.

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I find it strange. Sweden used to be considered a leftist dream here about a decade ago. Now they've deviated from orthodoxy (they didn't lockdown their country) they must be cursed

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BalanceLost posted...

There are definitely several countries who have done better regarding both number of infections and deaths but there are also several nations who have done worse. Some despite having aggressive lockdowns. Regarding Swedish deaths it is nursing homes who matter though. That is where we as a nation have failed. The cases out in society have had far milder outcomes.

Even if you want to ignore every death outside of nursing homes, it comes down to a lot more than just how their deaths are counted. Nursing homes don't live in a bubble, and access to beds, hospitals, PPE, and a million other factors repsonsible for the outcomes of people infected in nursing homes are all impacted by how the virus is being handled outside of those nursing homes. Shit rolls downhill, and if you let things fall apart, the problem isn't just a matter of looking at which sector of society is the one that ends up having to pay the piper.

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Which country counted their Corona-related deaths as recovered cases?

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Frolex posted...

Even if you want to ignore every death outside of nursing homes, it comes down to a lot more than just how their deaths are counted. Nursing homes don't live in a bubble, and access to beds, hospitals, PPE, and a million other factors repsonsible for the outcomes of people infected in nursing homes are all impacted by how the virus is being handled outside of those nursing homes. Shit rolls downhill, and if you let things fall apart, the problem isn't just a matter of looking at which sector of society is the one that ends up having to pay the piper.

That is correct but the fact of the matter is that Swedish healthcare has held up well - it has been hard work at our hospitals but resources and staff have been available and the care given has held high quality. The ICU:s/covid-wards have not been overfull at any time during the pandemic (bless the Lord). The military constructed a high grade field hospital in Stockholm, the worst hit region, but it never needed use. The military also had staff and resources (PPE etc) available to build field hospitals in more cities but it wasnt needed so there has been a surplus of resources to provide to the Regions which govern healthcare. What there has been a shortage of is the anestesia agent Propofol (all has gone to covid-patients) so regular surgery patients have been given older (but still safe) anestesia (more focus on gas meds rather than intravenous). People have died in our ICU:s but the number is rather low thankfully.

Why nursing homes have been hit so hard (once again, a mere 40 municipalities have 70% of the deaths meaning 250 got 30%):

* Sweden has a high average lifespan so there are many very old people and very old people tend to be multi-sick already. If you live in a Swedish nursing home it means youre very frail as well because otherwise you live at home and get hemtjnst (home services). +25% of our dead are +90 years old.

* Zero preparedness with protective gear in many municipalities (they tried to buy after the pandemic was a fact which was hard due to global shortages and the Regions held onto their stores since they and municipalities are different organisations).

* Low education level amongst staff at multiple nursing homes. Many are hourly subsitutes with zero education in nursing or medicine. They can do a wonderful job anyway with daily hygiene, food/nutrient and stuff like that but they lack the knowledge about diseases, meds and other medicinal matters. They have for example helped both residents with covid-19 and residents without right after each other and therefore spread the infection across entire wards. The core staff at homes are supposed to be a profession called under-nurses who have a formal education but they are in short supply at many homes since the pay and Working conditions are better at hospitals. IVO has concluded that 91 homes across Sweden have such dire flaws in education amongst staff, lacking basic hygiene routines and lack of resources (protective gear etc) that it is directly responsible for unnecessary death and suffering during the pandemic. Several more nursing homes got flaws which can be suspected of causing the high death count at the home. These subparly run homes are generally located in the 40 municipalities with the extremely outsized death count. Nurses are few in nursing homes and doctors even more so. This is the case in both publicly run and privately run nursing homes.

* IVO has found a lot of cases where nursing home staff who lack medical authority decided to implement palliative care instead of contacting a hospital due to the poor health of the elderly person. This has potentially led to the death of elderly who could have survived if moved to a hospital and thus placed in Regional care (the real healthcare system).

I hope all words I used are correct English

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Foppe posted...

Which country counted their Corona-related deaths as recovered cases?

Chile I think. Their reasoning? The person is no longer sick.

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Ubergeneral3 posted...

not worth the cost.

sweeden will go down as the europen nation to really screw up the corona pandemic

Ah yes .05% of the population; What a travesty.

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Vermander posted...

Ah yes .05% of the population; What a travesty.

0.05% of the US population is 164,000

I guess you're fine with excess deaths, you crazy psychopath

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

0.05% of the US population is 164,000

I guess you're fine with excess deaths, you crazy psychopath

What a weird mode of thought. Percentages are exactly fair. The starting number was bigger so the final number was bigger, but your reaction was different.

This is like the same reason retail marks prices as numbers like 2.99 instead of $3.

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Vermander posted...

What a weird mode of thought. Percentages are exactly fair. The starting number was bigger so the final number was bigger, but your reaction was different.

This is like the same reason retail marks prices as numbers like 2.99 instead of $3.

You're okay with 164,000 United States deaths using your logic. No idea what your other straw grasping is about, but it's completely irrelevant to your % logic.

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

You're okay with 164,000 United States deaths using your logic. No idea what your other straw grasping is about, but it's completely irrelevant to your % logic.

Im saying per capita its such a small number. 164,000 might have died, but millions have had their lives ruined. Everyone sees these numbers and views it in a very one-dimensional way.

This isnt to say we shouldnt do what we can to prevent deaths, but we have been more restrictive than some countries, and the data doesnt support we are doing better than any of them.

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Vermander posted...

Im saying per capita its such a small number. 164,000 might have died, but millions have had their lives ruined. Everyone sees these numbers and views it in a very one-dimensional way.

You do realize that the mortality rate is estimated to be 0.6%? We'd be looking at close to 2 million US deaths if everyone got this highly contagious virus, with an unknown of the long term dangers of having the virus. Healthcare system would be overrun, like it was in New York and currently in Texas, Arizona, and Florida, and deaths are likely to rise in other non-COVID ailments in that case. Letting a virus spread around uncontrolled is far more damaging and devastating for millions of people in the longterm.

Vermander posted...

This isnt to say we shouldnt do what we can to prevent deaths, but we have been more restrictive than some countries, and the data doesnt support we are doing better than any of them.

We're not doing better because our citizens are morons and our leadership are morons who feed into conspiracies and anti-science. Japan's unemployment rate is only what, 2%? And they've had less than 1000 COVID deaths. And their population density is far greater than the US.

Less than 1000 reported COVID deaths, you mean.

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onedarksoul posted...

Less than 1000 reported COVID deaths, you mean.

Don't strawman. Every country likely has more actual COVID deaths than reported.

US deaths compared to last year are 180K over the norm, yet we only have 145K COVID deaths reported.

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Don't strawman. Every country likely has more actual COVID deaths than reported.

Just a cursory glance of the numbers gives me the impression Asian countries in general are massively under-reporting the numbers, compared to western nations. For what reason? I do not know.

US deaths compared to last year are 180K over the norm, yet we only have 145K COVID deaths reported.

People are still getting sick/dying from other reasons. We should look there first, rather than assuming everything is COVID.

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onedarksoul posted...

Just a cursory glance of the numbers gives me the impression Asian countries in general are massively under-reporting the numbers, compared to western nations. For what reason? I do not know.

Places like Japan, Korea, Singapore, etc. aren't under authoritarian rule. Don't be an ignorant conspiracy theorist. If they're underreporting, then who's to say we aren't either? What makes us more transparent and reliable? These Asian countries are collectivist societies with trust in science and their government, and had to deal with the SARS pandemic in 2003. This isn't their first rodeo, it doesn't take five fucking months of politcal back-and-forth to embrace the use of masks, or saying it's fake and will go away in April.

onedarksoul posted...

People are still getting sick/dying from other reasons. We should look there first, rather than assuming everything is COVID.

Do you know what "excess deaths compared to normal" means? Yes people are dying of other causes, but what is the root issue here compared to last year? What makes this year different than 2019? Hint: It's not car accidents, it's not the flu. Hmm, can you guess?

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Places like Japan, Korea, Singapore, etc. aren't under authoritarian rule. Don't be an ignorant conspiracy theorist. If they're underreporting, then who's to say we aren't either? What makes us more transparent and reliable? These Asian countries are collectivist societies with trust in science and their government, and had to deal with the SARS pandemic in 2003. This isn't their first rodeo, it doesn't take five fucking months of politcal back-and-forth to embrace the use of masks, or saying it's fake and will go away in April.

We aren't because many states are conducting massive test campaigns, then reporting the numbers through state health department websites. In big, dense cities like Tokyo, what we're seeing there compared to what happened in New York City seems beyond belief. Then on top of that they have an aging population too, and we know from months that those age groups are the most vulnerable. So why are their numbers so much lower? Their rates of testing are way lower, thats one reason I'm seeing for the huge disparity in numbers. Article: https://www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/d00592/

Do you know what "excess deaths compared to normal" means? Yes people are dying of other causes, but what is the root issue here compared to last year? What makes this year different than 2019? Hint: It's not car accidents, it's not the flu. Hmm, can you guess?

My statement still stands, especially with how eager localities and hospitals are to report any death they can as COVID.

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Sorry your little conspiracy gets ass blasted with one graph.



Guess what? If US still did zero testing but had all other things constance, we'd still have over 170,000 excess deaths.

onedarksoul posted...

My statement still stands, especially with how eager localities and hospitals are to report any death they can as COVID

First, citation needed on the last part. Second... 170,000 excess deaths than average this year. COVID-19 didn't exist last year. So what is the common variable?

Clearly you're a troll, but it's still fun owning an expy of people who actually believe the bullshit non-science they spew.

I mean, I posted an article talking about Japan's low testing. So, there you go.

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Second... 170,000 excess deaths than average this year. COVID-19 didn't exist last year. So what is the common variable?

Why don't you look and see what those excess deaths are resulting from? If only 145k deaths are reported as COVID, yet its 170k excess deaths over average, it stands to reason that extra 25k are due to other reasons. Simply screaming everything is COVID won't get you anywhere.

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Stop it, Trump. Testing finds cases, it doesn't create cases. Look at the excess deaths for COVID impact on a society. Testing doesn't create deaths either, FYI.

the pro-life party actively saying people should die so the 1% profits more

fun stuff

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onedarksoul posted...

Why don't you look and see what those excess deaths are resulting from? If only 145k deaths are reported as COVID, yet its 170k excess deaths over average, it stands to reason that extra 25k are due to other reasons. Simply screaming everything is COVID won't get you anywhere.

People with other health issues aren't going to get the proper care and attention when an abundance of others are occupying beds and space in the hospitals.

You're unable to look at a whole picture, and that's really pathetic.

If you don't know where the extra 25k came from, then you're purely guessing its COVID. Just admit that and be reasonable for once in your life.

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Lol at Trumpist onedarksoul getting rekt by reality

If you're incapable of seeing the impact on healthcare and greater society due to 145K confirmed excessive deaths due to a virus, then that's on you.

Stop with the strawman and conspiracies.

I'm talking about the extra 25k in the 170k over average you seem eager to assign as being COVID, with no evidence. Not sure how you're getting lost here.

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Excess deaths of 25K in a year are not normal. Whether directly or indirectly, counted or not counted, COVID has contributed to a larger number of excessive deaths than average.

The events are congruent, not independent. Healthcare capacity issues create greater risks of death than normal, for any health problem. Anyone over 5 years old could understand this.

So its COVID because you say so. Got it. You really are a Doctor.

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What else is affecting 25K extra non-COVID deaths this year in the US? I'd love to hear what your findings are, backed by data from experts. Falling pianos?

What an exasperating topic. I understand it's in response to something BL, but there's one fundamental thing that has been glossed over (maybe you've covered it earlier):
The FHM recommendations have never been seeking to minimize the economic damage. They've always recommended stuff that they've thought would be the best for public health. So the framing of the economic impact is unfortunate to begin with, isn't it?

And this is before even getting into the rats nest that is inter country comparison. There's so much nuance here, from different ways of counting, to which metrics give a clearer picture (like, why is per capita an interesting metric when the spread has a very specific distribution?), and so on and so forth.

It also quite baffling to see people uncritically gobble up the words of the NYT as if there's not an agenda from them to paint Sweden in a specific light compared to their own domestic situation. And completely disregard BL who is probably the most up to date current events expert in Sweden we have on the board. Like fine, disagree if you want, but if you're going to rely on opinions from American media over a Swede actually working in healthcare then what's the point

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Do not say this often but I agree with Scar here

Actually don't Sweden and NYC have similar sizes in population? Any Americans ready to defend the death rates?

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@scar_the_1 Yeah that got lost in the OP, which is something I take with me.

Thanks for giving me support and you too @Dathrowed1

No one has bothered commenting on the long ass post I made yesterday where I more detailed described exactly why Swedish elderly care is a cluster fuck and contrasted it with our healthcare.

Today a new report came which is very sad reading: elderly with covid-19 who got hospitalized in the Region of Stockholm so far have a survival rate of 80% while it is almost 0% if you were not taken to a hospital. The risk of getting covid-19 and dying for elderly is 60 times higher if you live in a nursing home compared to living in your own home.

Regarding New York City, it is a densely packed city which makes it difficult to compare completely but they have 23463 deaths according to the US CDC which is over 4 times the Swedish amount (5676). NYC has 8.7 million people while Sweden has 10.1 million.

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