Current Events > Does the fact that 2 of the cops were rookies change your thoughts?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Since they were new to the job does that change your opinion? Should they be punished less harshly?

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Changes very little. They appeared to be complicit in the work culture.

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No
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Does their on the job training include learning how to be a decent human being, perchance?

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for the rookies, no.
for chauvin, he should indicted more with training rookies with racism and brutality.

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i would certainly give the 3 accessories a lesser sentence, and would find it reasonable to give the rookies even lighter ones to some extent, but not a free pass at all

BabyRoxann posted...

I read that one of the newbies asked if they should move him into a more comfortable position. If that's true, and considering I don't think any new cop would actively try to argue with an experienced cop, this should be taken into account during his trial.

But then, again, if all of them were hearing George asking for help and saying he couldn't breathe... I still don't see how you could use inexperience as an excuse for not at least ATTEMPTING to speak to Chauvin and express concern about this.

guy with a temper, a gun, and power over your career is doing something wrong...do you stop them in the moment, risking your livelihood and potentially your life, with other people on his side (present and in the entire force), supporting him? hell yeah, they have an excuse

I wonder how the fuck nobody thought to say "hey boss you been kneeling on his neck and hes begging you to stop, saying he cant breathe". That doesnt take a big brain.

BabyRoxann posted...

If that's the case, no cop should ever be held accountable for not intervening when another cop is trying to kill someone.

not sure why you think allowing police brutality being acceptable for all would be a good solution to the problem of leadership being shitty. that said, that is the route that they have been taking in many cases

Why would it?

You are either a decent human being, or not. They had the power to stop a guy being murdered, and watched it happen.

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Keith_Valentine posted...

I wonder how the fuck nobody thought to say "hey boss you been kneeling on his neck and hes begging you to stop, saying he cant breathe". That doesnt take a big brain.

not sure what you are trying to get at, but this is not all that different from someone saying "well did you ever think of leaving your abusive spouse? then they wouldn't hurt you anymore". obviously the "solution" is pretty easy/clear, but you need some understanding of basic psychology (i.e. understanding human beings whatsoever) to get why its not as simple as identifying an obvious solution and "just doing it" for people who are in difficult situations

Funkydog posted...

Why would it?

You are either a decent human being, or not. They had the power to stop a guy being murdered, and watched it happen.

LOTS of decent human beings see something that is wrong and watch it happening and do nothing for MANY reasons (some of which are valid to some extent, depending on context). they aren't terrible people just because they didn't step up. that's not what its about. i'd argue its a police officer's responsibility to do so potentially, but its not at all a "decent human being" versus not issue

Fam_Fam posted...

LOTS of decent human beings see something that is wrong and watch it happening and do nothing for MANY reasons (some of which are valid to some extent, depending on context). they aren't terrible people just because they didn't step up. that's not what its about. i'd argue its a police officer's responsibility to do so potentially, but its not at all a "decent human being" versus not issue

In this case it is.

They had the power and responsibility to stop it. Your average citizen I can understand not getting involved with it, even more so in America where it would likely result in you being shot and killed. But people who are given trust to protect the community? Damn right they should step in and be a decent human being with the power and responsiblity they have been given.

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Nah and I'm so jaded at this point, I'd be more inclined to assume the whole thing was a set up as a rite of pasage.

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I think the other 3 should get plea deals in exchange for testifying agains Derek.

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Funkydog posted...

In this case it is.

They had the power and responsibility to stop it. Your average citizen I can understand not getting involved with it, even more so in America where it would likely result in you being shot and killed. But people who are given trust to protect the community? Damn right they should step in and be a decent human being with the power and responsiblity they have been given.

right so they are failing at doing their job. this has nothing to do with being a "decent human being". decent human beings don't have that obligation universally, in my opinion. police officers, I would argue, on-duty most certainly do (and I'd argue even off-duty there' s potentially a moral obligation to do so if and because you have the training and authority to do so)

ForsakenHermit posted...

I think the other 3 should get plea deals in exchange for testifying agains Derek.

so they can lie to save their own asses?

No. If you can sit idly by as your boss is causing someone to suffocate to death and your excuse is your boss just wouldn't listen to you... That's not good enough.

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Fam_Fam posted...

so they can lie to save their own asses?

The way I see it's better to see them sure to get some time in exchange for Derek more likely to serve a lot of time than for none of them to get any time at all.

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Funkydog posted...

Why would it?

You are either a decent human being, or not. They had the power to stop a guy being murdered, and watched it happen.

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Fam_Fam posted...

guy with a temper, a gun, and power over your career is doing something wrong...do you stop them in the moment, risking your livelihood and potentially your life, with other people on his side (present and in the entire force), supporting him? hell yeah, they have an excuse

What sucks is if they had intervened, this would never have made news and they may have been written up or worse. They never would have been recognized by any community for their actions (as the event wouldn't be newsworthy). The whole system needs to be redone from scratch.

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Fam_Fam posted...

not sure what you are trying to get at, but this is not all that different from someone saying "well did you ever think of leaving your abusive spouse? then they wouldn't hurt you anymore". obviously the "solution" is pretty easy/clear, but you need some understanding of basic psychology (i.e. understanding human beings whatsoever) to get why its not as simple as identifying an obvious solution and "just doing it" for people who are in difficult situations

Its obvious what im getting at.

If you see your fellow cop choking a man to death with their knee, while the guy begs and says he cant breathe and it goes on for a few minutes, ask him to stop.

You saying you need basic human psychology to understand and comparing this to domestic abuse is extremely foolish. All you need is basic decency. It doesnt take a lot of courage to say "hey man, maybe you should stop killing that guy".

Forgettable posted...

Except one of the rookies did. Twice.

Cool. The other guy was trying to argue speaking up like that is similar to domestic abuse, honestly have no idea how that made sense to him.

Hey man, it's my first day on the job, how am I supposed to know you are supposed to hold the babies head out of the water when you bathe them.

Let them plead their case in court, but their actions (or lack there of) are what they are. And when it comes to the law, excuses shouldn't mean shit, you either broke the law or not. Ignorance is not a defense.

Keith_Valentine posted...

Its obvious what im getting at.

If you see your fellow cop choking a man to death with their knee, while the guy begs and says he cant breathe and it goes on for a few minutes, ask him to stop.

You saying you need basic human psychology to understand and comparing this to domestic abuse is extremely foolish. All you need is basic decency. It doesnt take a lot of courage to say "hey man, maybe you should stop killing that guy".

cop tries to take a knee in solidarity:

https://tinyurl.com/ycqayof8

simple, huh? his career is over and he's gonna get fucked over/killed sometime soon.

realnifty1 posted...

Hey man, it's my first day on the job, how am I supposed to know you are supposed to hold the babies head out of the water when you bathe them.

Let them plead their case in court, but their actions (or lack there of) are what they are. And when it comes to the law, excuses shouldn't mean shit, you either broke the law or not. Ignorance is not a defense.

except it is sometimes. heard of qualified immunity?

Fam_Fam posted...

cop tries to take a knee in solidarity:

https://tinyurl.com/ycqayof8

simple, huh? his career is over and he's gonna get fucked over/killed sometime soon.

Are you serious? We went from one cop helping another one by stopping him before he makes a life destroying choice, which you compared speaking up like that to domestic abuse. And then you just post a completely unrelated incident of some cops getting pissed at another cop for kneeling? And say hes gonna get killed now? Fucked over some, maybe, but killed?

Youre pretty random itt

Fam_Fam posted...

except it is sometimes. heard of qualified immunity?

Of course I have, you should probably Google things instead of just throwing around words you clearly don't understand. Qualified Immunity only applies to lawsuits, it is completely irrelevant for criminal proceedings. Lawsuits have only a tenuous relationship to the breaking of laws, you can be successfully sued without ever breaking the law if your actions caused harm to another party.

realnifty1 posted...

Of course I have, you should probably Google things instead of just throwing around words you clearly don't understand. Qualified Immunity only applies to lawsuits, it is completely irrelevant for criminal proceedings. Lawsuits have only a tenuous relationship to the breaking of laws, you can be successfully sued without ever breaking the law if your actions caused harm to another party.

so ignorance is sometimes a defense for lawsuits, which is what i said?

Keith_Valentine posted...

Are you serious? We went from one cop helping another one by stopping him before he makes a life destroying choice, which you compared speaking up like that to domestic abuse. And then you just post a completely unrelated incident of some cops getting pissed at another cop for kneeling? And say hes gonna get killed now? Fucked over some, maybe, but killed?

Youre pretty random itt

ok how about this. cop loses job and pension after stopping another cop who is choking a suspect

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvaqa3/buffalo-cop-loses-job-and-pension-after-she-intervenes-with-fellow-

officer-choking-a-suspect?fbclid=IwAR29QAook45VHNSpvwWaqaw4ukDcgVPnV8wEHEg0d-AV6dCCRjb7YrUaErk

maybe less harshly possibly but it's hard to feel bad for them when I know they could have stood up to their superior. sometimes you just have to say no to your boss when they are doing something evil.

Fam_Fam posted...

ok how about this. cop loses job and pension after stopping another cop who is choking a suspect

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvaqa3/buffalo-cop-loses-job-and-pension-after-she-intervenes-with-fellow-

officer-choking-a-suspect?fbclid=IwAR29QAook45VHNSpvwWaqaw4ukDcgVPnV8wEHEg0d-AV6dCCRjb7YrUaErk

You act like I should be influenced by one incident you google and post to support your case. It doesnt change how I feel at all. Cops are brothers, right? "Hey bro, i think youre starting to kill this guy. You dont wanna do this". You gotta intervene. Its like when youre in a fight and you cant stop hitting a guy because youre worked up, someones gotta pull you back. I guarantee he Chauvin wishes someone would have stopped him, now hes facing many years in prison and is on suicide watch. He killed a man and his wife left him, and those 3 officers let him choke a man to death with his knee for 8 minutes.

This is a systemic problem.
You can ramble on all you want about how certain cops aren't decent human beings if you want, but at the end of the day all you're doing is making yourself feel better by coming up with the explanation that requires the least amount of brain work, and releasing anger and not offering any real explanation or suggestions.

I think that 2 of the other cops were rookies strongly suggests an unhealthy culture of following superiors regardless of what they're doing. Officers should be trained to be less aggressive and should also be heavily reminded in training that they serve the people, rather than superiors. This, of course, being in an ideal society. Its not something I expect to happen.

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Fam_Fam posted...

so ignorance is sometimes a defense for lawsuits, which is what i said?

No, it is not a defense in a lawsuit. Why are people on this site so moronic. If you caused someone harm (a tort) then you can be successfully sued for that action. It does not matter if your action was legal or not. It does not matter whether you knew it would cause them harm.

And even at that, you specifically called out qualified immunity which irrelevant, so good job moving the goal posts, too bad you continue to move into an area where I still score.