Board 8 > Bernie supporters, who are you voting for?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Vote away!

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Trump, he's actually done a better job in the past 2 months dealing with Corona. Yea his initial response wasn't great but he's done better recently. Also, overall, taking the 4 years into perspective, he's done pretty good. 2017-2019 there really wasn't any major problems, it was actually a golden era I believe for our country when we look back on it. They tried to distract with Russia, Brett Kavaungh, Confederate statues, impeachment(what happened to that lol) and other b.s, but those issues were just things they made up to try to take him down. 2019 in particular was an amazing year.

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I did vote bernie in the primaries that was I was able to, but not sure if I count as a supporter...

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I hear the Greens aren't too bad. Of course they've got no chance but they can still aim for getting enough votes to be noticed.

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I don't even want to think about it this is worse than 2016

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I was a Yang supporter and my primary was canceled before I could vote for Bernie, do I count as a supporter? And I didn't change my party affiliation to democrat an entire year ahead of the 2016 election so I wasn't allowed to vote for him last time, either. Yay democracy.

Also Jill Stein isn't running for the green party this year, it's gonna be Howie Hawkins.

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Xuxon posted...

I was a Yang supporter and my primary was canceled before I could vote for Bernie, do I count as a supporter?

Pretty sure that got uncancelled.

paperwarior posted...

I hear the Greens aren't too bad.

From who lol

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i like the green party

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I'm not voting for President this year.

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I'm not sure what I'm doing but I'm not sure I count as a Bernie supporter either so meh

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I'm pretty sure Jill Stein isn't runing for the Green Party this year. I could be wrong, but I think it's Howie Hawkins this time. If they seriously try to drag Biden's corpse through to November, I'm voting Green regardless of the candidate because I vote on policy, not party. Democrats are looking more and more like controlled opposition paid to lose as they ignore their base and try to court anti-Trump Republicans. Maybe this time the Green Party can hit 5% for federal funding.

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PrinceReva posted...

I'm pretty sure Jill Stein isn't runing for the Green Party this year. I could be wrong, but I think it's Howie Hawkins this time. If they seriously try to drag Biden's corpse through to November, I'm voting Green regardless of the candidate because I vote on policy, not party. Democrats are looking more and more like controlled opposition paid to lose as they ignore their base and try to court anti-Trump Republicans. Maybe this time the Green Party can hit 5% for federal funding.

If the majority of Democrats voted Biden in the primary, then what exactly do you think their base is?

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Inviso posted...

If the majority of Democrats voted Biden in the primary, then what exactly do you think their base is?

The majority of Democrats didn't even get to vote with all of those cancelled primaries. I don't think I've even heard one person tell me any of his platform aside from "Reintroduce and expand the Affordable Care Act" which basically means we'll create a public option that will go bankrupt. Besides that, we know we'll continue to bomb the middle-east, continue to ignore climate scientists, continue to allow people to die without health care or incur exorbitant sums of medical debt, do nothing about student debt, continue this awful immigration policy, and we'll keep giving money to the richest people in the country at the expense of the working class. This isn't "Left/Progressive policies" which the Democrats love to co-opt the brand so much; this is Republican politics with a nicer guy at the helm.

Also, this is playing along with the "majority voted for Biden" narrative which I question due to the exit poll discrepancies.

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That doesn't answer my question.

What "base" do you think the Democrats are ignoring?

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Pretty sure that got uncancelled.

Oh hey you're right. End of next month. And it was Yang who made it happen. Guess I get to vote for Yang then. I didn't even realize he'd be on the ballot with how late in the process NY is and how early he dropped out.

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Inviso posted...

That doesn't answer my question.

What "base" do you think the Democrats are ignoring?

The politically left/progressive/"liberal" base.

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the base that doesn't want a creepy senile dude president

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Rather than ignoring, Biden is fairly hostile towards the progressives that are supposedly in the "same party".

Okay, I guess my new issue is that I'm going to need a definition for the term "base". Because from my perspective, Biden is appealing to the Democratic base, and the Democratic base wants Biden. It's just a matter of him reaching outside of that base to both progressives on the left, and center-Republicans on the right.

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PrinceReva posted...

The politically left/progressive/"liberal" base.

That's not a "base", that's just a small minority of people. It's the opposite of a base. You're a minority, and your party definitely isn't your friend.

That said, this isn't an election of bases. No presidential election really is. It's all about the many swing groups that make up the vast majority of voters. What you're complaining about is that the Democrats aren't catering to your group in their attempt to tip the scales. That's because your group threatens the base, so it might not be worth the risk. But too much risk avoidance guarantees failure, hence the Democrat party.

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PrinceReva posted...

Also, this is playing along with the "majority voted for Biden" narrative which I question due to the exit poll discrepancies.

The people saying this are completely wrong and don't understand basic statistics. For example, in the first viral tweet I saw about these "discrepancies" the person appeared to think that the margin of error was for the difference between two candidates' vote shares (which actually has twice the error in a two person contest as does an individual candidate's results, which is what the reported MoE is for), which is even before we get to the fact that the MoE is only for statistical error, which is what you get when you're drawing from a perfectly representative distribution (which US exit polls do not do, and are not designed to do. Their purpose is not to validate elections, but to get estimates of vote shares by various demographics).

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foolm0r0n posted...

That's not a "base", that's just a small minority of people. It's the opposite of a base. You're a minority, and your party definitely isn't your friend.

That said, this isn't an election of bases. No presidential election really is. It's all about the many swing groups that make up the vast majority of voters. What you're complaining about is that the Democrats aren't catering to your group in their attempt to tip the scales. That's because your group threatens the base, so it might not be worth the risk. But too much risk avoidance guarantees failure, hence the Democrat party.

Well, with this explanation I can only guess that you view the Democratic base as "voters who think Joe is the safe pick" since he quite literally has close to no platform whatsoever. In contrast, I also view every presidential election as one of bases. The Republicans can be counted on to vote for "less taxes, less regulation, less government programs". That turns them out. If you want to excite the other side of the political spectrum, which the Democratic party, as the opposition party, should want to do, you have to conjure excitement with worker protections, environmental protections, an expanded social safety net, etc. However, in America we only have the options of moving to the right really fast or slowly. We don't go left in any meaningful way because both parties court the same high-dollar donors.


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Probably just going to leave the slot blank like I did in 2016, but then again I also live in NY so my vote in presidential elections kinda doesn't matter. Would probably have to actually think about it more if I lived in a little more contested state.

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Pretty happy with these results so far. If this is representative of the electorate Biden is doomed.

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This is Joe Biden's platform.

https://joebiden.com/joes-vision/

Can we please stop saying he doesn't have one.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Failure: The Democrat party

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LordoftheMorons posted...

The people saying this are completely wrong and don't understand basic statistics. For example, in the first viral tweet I saw about these "discrepancies" the person appeared to think that the margin of error was for the difference between two candidates' vote shares (which actually has twice the error in a two person contest as does an individual candidate's results, which is what the reported MoE is for), which is even before we get to the fact that the MoE is only for statistical error, which is what you get when you're drawing from a perfectly representative distribution (which US exit polls do not do, and are not designed to do. Their purpose is not to validate elections, but to get estimates of vote shares by various demographics).

Be that as it may, I specifically recall you using exit poll data to justify the coup in Bolivia, and even if we allow that the purpose of exit polls are different in other countries (obviously corruption only exists outside the US), you really cant blame or even argue against people in THIS country using it as they are.

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As yet undecided

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PronceReva sounds like me 4 years ago before I was beaten down into a state of apathy

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pyresword posted...

This is Joe Biden's platform.

https://joebiden.com/joes-vision/

Can we please stop saying he doesn't have one.

Key is remembering it when you're on stage with trump in the 1v1 debates where you get no ear piece, note cards or teleprompters. Biden is absolutely doomed.

I think anyone that says the debates doom Biden forgets how little they matter on top of how much Trump sucks at them.

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.....Trump's supporters eat up his arrogant, flippant tone and anyone on the fence between the two is gonna see Biden barely able to form sentences so I'm gonna have to kinda disagree with you there

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Biden was fine in the Democratic debates against stronger debaters than Trump.

So all evidence points to you being wrong.

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red13n posted...

Biden was fine in the Democratic debates against stronger debaters than Trump.

So all evidence points to you being wrong.

I don't know that we watched the same debates then. Biden could hardly complete a sentence, and didn't talk about his plans for anything as much as he pointed to the past and said "Barack and I did (x, y, z) so I know we can do that again" as if things were any better from 08-16.

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Biden has always had the issue of talking only in the past or now, and having absolutely nothing to say about the future.

not voting, although I'm tempted to vote Trump just to send a message

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You guys who keep telling yourself Trump is a poor debater are in denial. He ran circles around 16 Republican candidates and then delivered of moments against Hillary that are very effective when replayed as short clips.

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A lot of people won't decide until they hear who Biden's running mate is.

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red sox 777 posted...

You guys who keep telling yourself Trump is a poor debater are in denial. He ran circles around 16 Republican candidates and then delivered of moments against Hillary that are very effective when replayed as short clips.

hillary went up in the polls after the debates.

if we're not judging them by "who had the best arguments/was arguing in good faith the most" (because hillary obviously wins then lol) but "who was the best persuader," i don't see how trump won either.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

hillary went up in the polls after the debates.

if we're not judging them by "who had the best arguments/was arguing in good faith the most" (because hillary obviously wins then lol) but "who was the best persuader," i don't see how trump won either.

The immediate impact is much less important than the impact through election. As I said, Trump was effective in creating footage that could be replayed as short clips which were extremely effective. For instance (paraphrasing):

HRC: Well I'm glad that someone with your temperament isn't in charge of law enforcement in this country.

DJT: Because you'd be in jail.

That kind of exchange is less effective in the middle of a 2 hour debate, but presented as a standalone clip it's super powerful.

Also, HRC is miles better at debating than 2020 Biden. She would have been on a level with the former version of Biden probably, but this version who has a hard time stringing a complete sentence together? Totally different.

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red sox 777 posted...

The immediate impact is much less important than the impact through election. As I said, Trump was effective in creating footage that could be replayed as short clips which were extremely effective. For instance (paraphrasing):

Ok so do you have polling data that both tracks this and isolates the effect of the debates specifically within that data?
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pyresword posted...

Ok so do you have polling data that both tracks this and isolates the effect of the debates specifically within that data?

No, but I have eyes and ears, and I was significantly more accurate at predicting the election than the polls and models based on the polls. I was nearly exactly right, and most polling models other than 538 were catastrophically wrong. Even 538 was significantly off the result.

In any case, I think it's quite clear that Hillary 2016 is a far better debater than Biden 2020. Drop Biden 2020 into the 2016 Republican debates and he is quite possibly the worst debater in that group of 17.

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red sox 777 posted...

Also, HRC is miles better at debating than 2020 Biden. She would have been on a level with the former version of Biden probably, but this version who has a hard time stringing a complete sentence together? Totally different.

hard disagree.

like red said, the consensus about the dem debates was that biden was decent. not amazing, but decent. seems like the "he couldn't even string a sentence together lol" thing is revisionist history that people are applying now that biden has the "he's a demented grandpa" stigma. also, hillary was an unbelievably terrible debater.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

hard disagree.

like red said, the consensus about the dem debates was that biden was decent. not amazing, but decent. seems like the "he couldn't even string a sentence together lol" thing is revisionist history that people are applying now that biden has the "he's a demented grandpa" stigma. also, hillary was an unbelievably terrible debater.

The consensus is also loudly purported by Biden-friendly media doing anything they can to keep the spotlight off of Bernie. They're doing all they can to drag him along through November even while he's nowhere to be found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADDrSvNyqEY

17 minutes of Joe Biden demonstrating that he has a hard time putting sentences together; a hard time not misspeaking, plenty of those clips during debates. And if you think Hillary was a terrible debater and Biden isn't, you aren't paying any attention. They both spew platitudes amounting to word-salad and nothing, the only difference is Hillary at least made people think she was speaking from a place of knowing and not stumbling through buzzwords and slogans.

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PrinceReva posted...

The consensus is also loudly purported by Biden-friendly media doing anything they can to keep the spotlight off of Bernie. They're doing all they can to drag him along through November even while he's nowhere to be found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADDrSvNyqEY

17 minutes of Joe Biden demonstrating that he has a hard time putting sentences together; a hard time not misspeaking, plenty of those clips during debates. And if you think Hillary was a terrible debater and Biden isn't, you aren't paying any attention. They both spew platitudes amounting to word-salad and nothing, the only difference is Hillary at least made people think she was speaking from a place of knowing and not stumbling through buzzwords and slogans.

i should clarify that i'm basing "consensus" mostly on the reactions in the politics containment topic. even though LotM is probably the only huge biden fan there, everyone was like "biden was ok." nobody was arguing biden was as terrible in the debates as delaney or bloomberg.

and hillary was extremely unlikable and UNBELIEVABLY condescending in the debates. i hate trump as much as the next guy, but even i was starting to get annoyed at hillary's smug laughing and ever-present "lol he's such a clown what am i even doing on this stage" attitude. not saying biden is super charismatic but i'll give him that he's better than hillary in this regard.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i should clarify that i'm basing "consensus" mostly on the reactions in the politics containment topic. even though LotM is probably the only huge biden fan there, everyone was like "biden was ok." nobody was arguing biden was as terrible in the debates as delaney or bloomberg.

and hillary was extremely unlikable and UNBELIEVABLY condescending in the debates. i hate trump as much as the next guy, but even i was starting to get annoyed at hillary's smug laughing and ever-present "lol he's such a clown what am i even doing on this stage" attitude. not saying biden is super charismatic but i'll give him that he's better than hillary in this regard.

Biden was better than Delaney and Bloomberg only in that he didn't make himself the center of attention. In terms of actual speaking, he was worse. Bloomberg, for instance, could have won that debate if the audience (at home) consisted of Republicans rather than Democrats. He lost because the ideas he was pitching were not what Democrats were interested in.

Biden couldn't have won that debate with any audience I think. He was able to avoid coming in last simply by saying nothing memorable.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i should clarify that i'm basing "consensus" mostly on the reactions in the politics containment topic. even though LotM is probably the only huge biden fan there, everyone was like "biden was ok." nobody was arguing biden was as terrible in the debates as delaney or bloomberg.

and hillary was extremely unlikable and UNBELIEVABLY condescending in the debates. i hate trump as much as the next guy, but even i was starting to get annoyed at hillary's smug laughing and ever-present "lol he's such a clown what am i even doing on this stage" attitude. not saying biden is super charismatic but i'll give him that he's better than hillary in this regard.

Ahh, I understand. I will go on record and say that LotM is now the ONLY person I've heard of who is actually a "huge Biden fan" anywhere either online or in person. I'm glad to finally check that box.

As for Hillary, seeing that her whole campaign strategy was to collude with the media to elevate Trump and try to "Oh Brother, get a load of this guy." her way into the White House, her smug pompousness was part and parcel of the whole campaign. It didn't help, but it at least gave viewers the impression that she was on-the-ball and could clearly respond to questions asked (not substantively, just put the sentences together). I don't get that from Biden. I was saying back in January that it's sad and someone needs to pull him from the campaign trail as he's clearly deteriorating.

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red sox 777 posted...

Biden was better than Delaney and Bloomberg only in that he didn't make himself the center of attention. In terms of actual speaking, he was worse. Bloomberg, for instance, could have won that debate if the audience (at home) consisted of Republicans rather than Democrats. He lost because the ideas he was pitching were not what Democrats were interested in.

Biden couldn't have won that debate with any audience I think. He was able to avoid coming in last simply by saying nothing memorable.

BINGO! I agree with all of this, and judging from the past few months, this is Joe's campaign strategy. Stay scarcely in the public eye, let the other guy take the heat, hope the electorate is desperate for "Anyone else". If he says too much he'll go the way of Bloomberg, offering up bad ideas that would seem normal for the GOP.

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PrinceReva posted...

Well, with this explanation I can only guess that you view the Democratic base as "voters who think Joe is the safe pick" since he quite literally has close to no platform whatsoever.

He has the D next to his name, that's his platform. Christ man be a 3rd party voter, but don't be a child. It's embarrassing and why people who are cheering for the 2016 status quo to come back still are able to feel superior to you.

PrinceReva posted...

"less taxes, less regulation, less government programs"

Trump is the opposite of this. Yet he has the R next to his name, which means he automatically has a base, AND gets to decide what the base believes. He's used that to change what his base supports, but it has not really changed WHO his base is.


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