Poll of the Day > Avengers Endgame was disappointing :( *Massive Spoilers

(+) Yeah! (+)

adjl posted...

Thanos' motivation was sound, but the actions that followed were arrogant and myopic. He figured out the solution of killing people off to solve overpopulation, then proceeded to amass the power he needed to do so more and more effectively, never stopping to consider that such power could be used to solve the problem another way. With all six Infinity Stones, Thanos could have solved the problem of the universe's finite resources by making the universe's resources stop being finite. Instead, he used literal omnipotence to enact a solution that was temporary at best and pissed everybody off. He attained the power of a god, but continued to think like a mortal.

Now, none of that was ever actually presented to Thanos as a counterargument. The good guys' position consisted pretty much entirely of "killing people is bad, we'll figure out a different way after we stop you," which avoids talking about the problem he brings up instead of actually working to solve it. That could probably have been done better, but at the same time, I don't think it would have been consistent with any of the characters to have any of them actually do that. The only one who might have considered such a cosmic-scale solution to the problem would have been Doctor Strange, it's not in his nature to be so interventionist (see: Not telling Tony which of the millions of possibilities he searched through they were living in). Everyone else also thought about the problem like mortals, which is why they also fixated on individual lives instead of the bigger picture of solving resource scarcity.

Really, the whole story arc amounted to mortals being mortals while fighting over the power of gods, and that's inevitably going to result in all of them looking stupid if you look into it far enough. That's the only way to have interesting characters, since thinking of everything and doing everything right means you don't have much conflict to base a story off of.

It seems like in the totality of his career, people *must* have brought up those issues to Thanos because it's some common sense shit. And you can't fault his enemies for not talking it out because they were too busy being attacked and most of them didn't get a chance to address Thanos directly.

And the franchise in general hinged on a really haphazard, ill-thought character motivation.

Joker_X_II posted...

The problem with that counter-argument is that "purpose in life" would be inherently meaningless, if everything was provided for you. Despite Thanos' need to wipe out half of all life, he did respect life's need for struggle and purpose. So even on the flip-side and providing all those needs would be illogical as well.

And the problem with that assertion is that what you described is NOT the purpose of life, it's the mechanics of life and it's a short-sighted view of the mechanics at best. Most cultures throughout history have had times when their resources outstripped their population because that's pretty much what allowed those cultures to flourish. And having access to resources in no way cheapens life. The fact that you have a roof over your head, head, and presumably a reliable source of food doesn't make your life poorer or any less meaningful.

Further, there's a lot more to the struggle of life than just the availability of resources anyway.

JOExHIGASHI posted...

Resource scarcity was never a problem in mcu. Why does Thanos think it's a universal problem?

Eh, supposedly it was a problem on his home planet of Titan and a few planets he visited. The real problem is the simple fact that when you have a space-faring civilization and countless inhabitable planets, resource scarcity ceases to be an actual issue because you can just get resources somewhere else. In a way, even the destruction of Titan is laughable because they'd have no issue obtaining resources when there are countless resource-rich planets out there.


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Zeus posted...

And the problem with that assertion is that what you described is NOT the purpose of life, it's the mechanics of life and it's a short-sighted view of the mechanics at best. Most cultures throughout history have had times when their resources outstripped their population because that's pretty much what allowed those cultures to flourish. And having access to resources in no way cheapens life. The fact that you have a roof over your head, head, and presumably a reliable source of food doesn't make your life poorer or any less meaningful.

Further, there's a lot more to the struggle of life than just the availability of resources anyway.

So you have a roof over your head, food in your belly, clothes on your back, ...forever.... Bless Thanos for taking the Communism approach to his newly found god-like powers.

...then what?

Be a doctor? Why, what's the point? It's all provided for you. Health care as it stands now would not exist, as the more common aliments for seeking care in the first place wouldn't happen. No job stress, no social anxiety, no traffic jams to breathe in cancerous exhaust fumes or bullet wounds due to road rage. Everyone would be chill in their homes, safe and healthy never needing a doctor to the point the entire job market for the medical fields would be too exclusive to the point of non-existence.

Be an astronaut? Why, what's the point? The only real reason to expand out into space is for humanity to grow and seek other resources to consume, but if all is provided for you then what's the point of progress?

Be a farmer? Why, what's the point? Thanos provides.

Work hard so you can buy a big house with a huge yard, white picket fences.... Not so much "why", but "how"? Most people get wealth by working their angles in a supply and demand market. Thanos will curb the market leaving no room for any entrepreneur....for example, being an inventor, an engineer? If there was a hypothetical device to improve the quality of life of other people, like the next smartphone that used holographic UI, or even the Slap-Chop 2.0......why would there even be a need for "quality of life devices" since life would be catered to anyways by Thanos? Where is the market to make easy life easier?

Be a rock-star? an artist? Why, what's the point?...considering how over-commercialized the art industries are anyways. Think of each an every one of us trying to sell their ideas to the next person trying to sell their ideas. "My ideas are better than yours". But what's going to happen is their art becomes their identity so much, they'll either kill themselves for having their voices drowned out constantly by the majority, adding to depression and other mental illness.....or they go on a killing sprees because it's the only validation they can get.

....you can call it "mechanics", I call it "purpose". And if Thanos provides what is needed for that purpose, to fulfill the requirements for those mechanics....then, again, what's the point?

Stay safe and healthy at home, do nothing but make more babies for Thanos to provide for? I mean look at the welfare state already, why are they making babies when they have no practical means to provide for the child anyways? In fact, there are welfare people who purposely continue to make babies to exploit the rules within the social service department. ....but sure, if "Thanos provides" the need to make babies for more welfare money wouldn't happen, except the human race would be so bored of itself being without purpose they would just cathartically breed itself into a worse over-populated state than before Thanos created the gauntlet.

However, .... one of the things EG failed to do is give a good anthropological glimpse of a world with half it's people gone. Cpt. America in a group comforting those who lost their loves ones...yeah, it's going to hurt of course people would need to start caring for each other more intently. Governments would collapse, but then again, why say "collapse" it would just "restructuring". There would be a "Wild West" phase in the transition, before people clamor for any resemblance to normalcy.

And when normalcy happens, they'll find an abundance of resources and no over-population to compete with. People would flourish with purpose. Thanos proved this when he spoke about Gamora's homeworld. It's brutal, but it works; as opposed to allowing everyone to go unchecked.

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You're not supposed to agree with Thanos. Dude's crazy. It's in his title.

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Metalsonic66 posted...

You're not supposed to agree with Thanos. Dude's crazy. It's in his title.

Not only that, but automation has been a goal of mankind for ages.

People would be free to pursue things of their interest.

As well as the fact bringing up people having children to game the system... Why was it even brought up just to be turned into people would have babies out of boredom? People aren't just going to give up all hobbies and aspirations just to turn around and replace them with 'botedom babies'. What?

Joker_X_II posted...

So you have a roof over your head, food in your belly, clothes on your back, ...forever.... Bless Thanos for taking the Communism approach to his newly found god-like powers.

...then what?

Be a doctor? Why, what's the point? It's all provided for you. Health care as it stands now would not exist, as the more common aliments for seeking care in the first place wouldn't happen. No job stress, no social anxiety, no traffic jams to breathe in cancerous exhaust fumes or bullet wounds due to road rage. Everyone would be chill in their homes, safe and healthy never needing a doctor to the point the entire job market for the medical fields would be too exclusive to the point of non-existence.

Be an astronaut? Why, what's the point? The only real reason to expand out into space is for humanity to grow and seek other resources to consume, but if all is provided for you then what's the point of progress?

Be a farmer? Why, what's the point? Thanos provides.

Work hard so you can buy a big house with a huge yard, white picket fences.... Not so much "why", but "how"? Most people get wealth by working their angles in a supply and demand market. Thanos will curb the market leaving no room for any entrepreneur....for example, being an inventor, an engineer? If there was a hypothetical device to improve the quality of life of other people, like the next smartphone that used holographic UI, or even the Slap-Chop 2.0......why would there even be a need for "quality of life devices" since life would be catered to anyways by Thanos? Where is the market to make easy life easier?

Be a rock-star? an artist? Why, what's the point?...considering how over-commercialized the art industries are anyways. Think of each an every one of us trying to sell their ideas to the next person trying to sell their ideas. "My ideas are better than yours". But what's going to happen is their art becomes their identity so much, they'll either kill themselves for having their voices drowned out constantly by the majority, adding to depression and other mental illness.....or they go on a killing sprees because it's the only validation they can get.

....you can call it "mechanics", I call it "purpose". And if Thanos provides what is needed for that purpose, to fulfill the requirements for those mechanics....then, again, what's the point?

Stay safe and healthy at home, do nothing but make more babies for Thanos to provide for? I mean look at the welfare state already, why are they making babies when they have no practical means to provide for the child anyways? In fact, there are welfare people who purposely continue to make babies to exploit the rules within the social service department. ....but sure, if "Thanos provides" the need to make babies for more welfare money wouldn't happen, except the human race would be so bored of itself being without purpose they would just cathartically breed itself into a worse over-populated state than before Thanos created the gauntlet.

However, .... one of the things EG failed to do is give a good anthropological glimpse of a world with half it's people gone. Cpt. America in a group comforting those who lost their loves ones...yeah, it's going to hurt of course people would need to start caring for each other more intently. Governments would collapse, but then again, why say "collapse" it would just "restructuring". There would be a "Wild West" phase in the transition, before people clamor for any resemblance to normalcy.

And when normalcy happens, they'll find an abundance of resources and no over-population to compete with. People would flourish with purpose. Thanos proved this when he spoke about Gamora's homeworld. It's brutal, but it works; as opposed to allowing everyone to go unchecked.

It doesn't actually work.
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Revelation34 posted...

It doesn't actually work.

It does in the Marvel universe. You suspend disbelief about everything else, why not that.

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Joker_X_II posted...

...then what?

Then you live the rest of your life.

Joker_X_II posted...

Be a doctor? Why, what's the point? It's all provided for you. Health care as it stands now would not exist, as the more common aliments for seeking care in the first place wouldn't happen. No job stress, no social anxiety, no traffic jams to breathe in cancerous exhaust fumes or bullet wounds due to road rage. Everyone would be chill in their homes, safe and healthy never needing a doctor to the point the entire job market for the medical fields would be too exclusive to the point of non-existence.

Be an astronaut? Why, what's the point? The only real reason to expand out into space is for humanity to grow and seek other resources to consume, but if all is provided for you then what's the point of progress?

Be a farmer? Why, what's the point? Thanos provides.

Availability of resources doesn't mean universal healthcare, it doesn't change the need for jobs to get those resources to consumers (harvest, transport, refine, process, transport again, and sell/provide), or countless other things. It doesn't change the desire to explore, etc.

More importantly, we ALREADY FUCKING HAD A TIME IN HISTORY WHEN HUMANITY SHIFTED FROM EVERYBODY FOCUSING ON TRYING TO PRODUCE TO MEET BASIC NEEDS THEMSELVES. And do you know what happened? People were freed up to do OTHER stuff. Instead of having 90% of the population involved in food production, you had people to work on the arts -- leading to shitty, half-thought-out movies today -- to create all kinds of new products, etc. And the super-minority who continued to work on producing food used their money to buy those new things everybody else produced. Effective division of labor doesn't "kill" societies, it's what allows societies to flourish. And if Thanos did instead magically just produce whatever people needed forever, then it'd be the only form of UBI in the history of creation that's actually sustainable. Even that wouldn't rob life of its struggle, though, since you'd still have interpersonal relationships and the search for meaning.

Otherwise you're deliberately confusing the concept of resources, which is weird because you seem to acknowledge raw resources later on (as something populations fight over) while pretending it's iPhones in the above (which it isn't).

Joker_X_II posted...

....you can call it "mechanics", I call it "purpose". And if Thanos provides what is needed for that purpose, to fulfill the requirements for those mechanics....then, again, what's the point?

No, it's not "purpose." There's no inherent meaning in those basic functions, they're just mechanics. Death as a mechanic itself could seen as a vehicle towards the creation of purpose, but even death isn't purpose in itself and death is many removed from everything else we're discussing.

Joker_X_II posted...

And when normalcy happens, they'll find an abundance of resources and no over-population to compete with. People would flourish with purpose. Thanos proved this when he spoke about Gamora's homeworld. It's brutal, but it works; as opposed to allowing everyone to go unchecked.

lolwut?! ROFLMAO!!!!!!! That's probably the stupidest shit you've said yet. First, over-population WILL become an issue again if it wasn't already an issue, which it wouldn't have been on many planets. Thanos offered NO solution for overpopulation. Second, and more importantly, we only have Thanos's word regarding Gamora's homeworld. We have no proof that the planet had issues on the whole *before* he killed half the population, nor do we have any proof that anything improved after -- and it's highly unlikely that Thanos ever returned to see his handiwork because he was busy engaging in mass murder. It's probable that Gamora's planet was left in an even worse state than before.

Finally, you hilariously claim that the people *gained* purpose through an increased availability of resources... you know, the very fucking thing you had been arguing against this whole time. If people having greater access to resources gives them more purpose and a higher quality of life, then you'd achieve the same by having Thanos create new resources. Bam! You killed your own shitty argument!

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Zeus posted...

Then you live the rest of your life.

without purpose?

... I mean, look at suicide rates among middle-aged white men since the 2010s? Despite shifts in the economy, gender politics are also playing a part within the employee market as well. Affirmative Action initiatives in some industries have bullied out these men who've invested their lives in the field they have experience in, and they're too old to do anything else.

Considering the basic notion of life 'without purpose', and it doesn't bode well when suddenly all of humanity's purpose is null and void.

Zeus posted...

More importantly, we ALREADY FUCKING HAD A TIME IN HISTORY WHEN HUMANITY SHIFTED FROM EVERYBODY FOCUSING ON TRYING TO PRODUCE TO MEET BASIC NEEDS THEMSELVES. And do you know what happened? People were freed up to do OTHER stuff. Instead of having 90% of the population involved in food production, you had people to work on the arts -- leading to shitty, half-thought-out movies today -- to create all kinds of new products, etc. And the super-minority who continued to work on producing food used their money to buy those new things everybody else produced. Effective division of labor doesn't "kill" societies, it's what allows societies to flourish. And if Thanos did instead magically just produce whatever people needed forever, then it'd be the only form of UBI in the history of creation that's actually sustainable. Even that wouldn't rob life of its struggle, though, since you'd still have interpersonal relationships and the search for meaning.

Yeah, it was called World War 2.... the major boost in economy was because EVERYONE invested themselves into the war effort. And to this day multiple generations have benefited from those who invested, which allowed such freedoms. (not so much anymore, because all the proxy-wars that have occured since then weren't sustaining enough)

But think about those who died in WW2, not just from the Americans, but the Germans and Japanese too, and around the world? 85 million people around the world died (based on simple google search) as a direct result of WW2.. and guess what the human population was back in 1939, before WW2 began? Before the baby boomers? Almost 2 billion? 85 million, from a 2 billion population....4.25% of the world population gone, and all we got are the Beatles, and everyone trying to rip them off for decades until we get K-pop boy-bands plucked straight out of prostitution rings....

Now the world population is at 8 billion people. And there isn't enough resources to sustain them all (at least not without destroying the environment) Malthusian theorist believe that in order for the planet and humanity to achieve a proper balance within the eco-system, 7 billion need to die in the next 100 years. ...but no, you think we can all wander around and check out the scenery and form boy-bands as the pinnacle of existence without ever caring about the consequences?

Zeus posted...

lolwut?! ROFLMAO!!!!!!! That's probably the stupidest shit you've said yet. First, over-population WILL become an issue again if it wasn't already an issue, which it wouldn't have been on many planets. Thanos offered NO solution for overpopulation. Second, and more importantly, we only have Thanos's word regarding Gamora's homeworld. We have no proof that the planet had issues on the whole *before* he killed half the population, nor do we have any proof that anything improved after -- and it's highly unlikely that Thanos ever returned to see his handiwork because he was busy engaging in mass murder. It's probable that Gamora's planet was left in an even worse state than before.

Stupid shit, huh?....like this comment?

"Thanos offered NO solution for overpopulation."....umm, yes he did..... snapping half the life in the universe....

"We only have Thanos's word regarding Gamora's homeworld"....yes, didn't Nebula say in EG that 'Thanos is many things, but he's not a liar', before Thor chopped his head off?... The beauty of Thanos' character in IW was that he did hold an honorable constitution for himself. Even when fighting Iron Man, Dr. Strange, and the Guardians of the Galaxy on Titan, he respected those he fought as he knew they were just trying to fight for their very existence.....basically, Thanos isn't the type of person to spout off on lies justify his reasoning.

If Thanos was a liar, you don't think Gamora would've call him out on it? When she escaped from Thanos (off-screen in the first GotG movie) you don't think she would've stopped by on her homeworld to see what it has become? A sort of masochistic nostalgia through her life before Thanos 'adopting' her? So if Thanos says, "they all have full bellies" Gamora didn't stop his dialogue then, because it must be true.

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Joker_X_II posted...

When she escaped from Thanos (off-screen in the first GotG movie) you don't think she would've stopped by on her homeworld to see what it has become?

Given how traumatic all that would have been... I mean I wouldn't tbh?

Joker_X_II posted...

without purpose?

... I mean, look at suicide rates among middle-aged white men since the 2010s? Despite shifts in the economy, gender politics are also playing a part within the employee market as well. Affirmative Action initiatives in some industries have bullied out these men who've invested their lives in the field they have experience in, and they're too old to do anything else.

Considering the basic notion of life 'without purpose', and it doesn't bode well when suddenly all of humanity's purpose is null and void.

You don't really seem to understand the notion of purpose.

As for middle-aged unemployees committing suicide, that's almost certainly has little to do with "purpose" and everything to do with economics and whatever else is going on in their lives (especially if they lost their job as a result of substance abuse, personal issues, or mental illness). That said, the suicide rate even among the *employed* is higher in that bracket, so your claim is doubly meaningless.

Joker_X_II posted...

Yeah, it was called World War 2.... the major boost in economy was because EVERYONE invested themselves into the war effort. And to this day multiple generations have benefited from those who invested, which allowed such freedoms. (not so much anymore, because all the proxy-wars that have occured since then weren't sustaining enough)

Wait, do you... do you seriously believe that WW2 caused the Industrial Revolution, something that started almost a hundred years earlier? And that's being generous, considering that the initial shift happened much earlier.

Jobs have evolved throughout history. The fact that you believe a surplus of resources would stop this is a sheer idiocy of the highest order, when in reality an increased availability would likely INCREASE the number of jobs. Not to that you're wrongly equating jobs with purpose, which isn't close to being the same thing. The vast majority of jobs don't provide much in the way of purpose (let alone meaning) and are instead merely means to an end.

Joker_X_II posted...

and guess what the human population was back in 1939, before WW2 began? Before the baby boomers? Almost 2 billion? 85 million, from a 2 billion population....4.25% of the world population gone, and all we got are the Beatles, and everyone trying to rip them off for decades until we get K-pop boy-bands plucked straight out of prostitution rings....

So basically you're acknowledging that population increases -- not decreases -- lead to progress? Yes, population explosions have very frequently driven innovation and progress, and vice versa.

Joker_X_II posted...

Now the world population is at 8 billion people. And there isn't enough resources to sustain them all (at least not without destroying the environment) Malthusian theorist believe that in order for the planet and humanity to achieve a proper balance within the eco-system, 7 billion need to die in the next 100 years. ...but no, you think we can all wander around and check out the scenery and form boy-bands as the pinnacle of existence without ever caring about the consequences?

lolwut? There's absolutely enough resources to sustain them. Even with our current technology, we're nowhere near close to the planet's carrying capacity. And technology will likely vastly increase the planet's carrying capacity in the same way that innovations facilitated population growth in the first place.

And claims of "balance" are generally just empty-headed hippie nonsense, considering that it's a largely arbitrary thing that simultaneously overlooks countless other factors. It also presupposes that the eco-system in its current form is the ideal, whereas in reality even without human interaction it changes.

Joker_X_II posted...

"Thanos offered NO solution for overpopulation."....umm, yes he did..... snapping half the life in the universe....

No, he didn't. And even you acknowledge this basic fact with your WWII example. All Thanos did was temporarily lower the population -- which on some worlds wouldn't have been enough anyway -- rather actually solve the issue. I already went into painstaking detail about this in multiple posts, some of which were probably in response to you. The only way that method could have worked to solve overpopulation would be to snap the entire universe out of existence, since even if you eliminated all life sooner or later life would reappear and that life would eventually overpopulate.

Joker_X_II posted...

"We only have Thanos's word regarding Gamora's homeworld"....yes, didn't Nebula say in EG that 'Thanos is many things, but he's not a liar', before Thor chopped his head off?... The beauty of Thanos' character in IW was that he did hold an honorable constitution for himself. Even when fighting Iron Man, Dr. Strange, and the Guardians of the Galaxy on Titan, he respected those he fought as he knew they were just trying to fight for their very existence.....basically, Thanos isn't the type of person to spout off on lies justify his reasoning.

You mean trust the severely psychologically damaged girl who was emotionally and physically abused until she developed a worldview almost as warped as Thanos's? Somehow her word doesn't seem entirely reliable. More importantly, you're comparing two very different claims on Thanos's part. (Assuming that Thanos wasn't lying then as well. The only thing truly known was that Thanos used the power of the stones to do something involving the stones.)

Joker_X_II posted...

If Thanos was a liar, you don't think Gamora would've call him out on it? When she escaped from Thanos (off-screen in the first GotG movie) you don't think she would've stopped by on her homeworld to see what it has become? A sort of masochistic nostalgia through her life before Thanos 'adopting' her? So if Thanos says, "they all have full bellies" Gamora didn't stop his dialogue then, because it must be true.

lolwut? Really doubling down on the stupidity here. Why would Gamora re-visit her homeworld? Would it be to relive the pleasant memories of her mother and most people she knew being slaughtered? Or would it be to visit people who would now hate her and want her dead because of her association with Thanos who killed many of their friends and relatives? More importantly, if Gamora had actually visited the planet, SHE would have said something in that scene.

And, for that matter, Thanos himself wasn't going to revisit that world to check in. How could he? He was busy traveling world to world on his mission to eradicate half of all life. And even if he did, he knew he wouldn't exactly be welcomed and would wind up killing more people in visiting it which would throw off what he did.

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