Current Events > Isnt it crazy that Conservatives think ppl will suicide after a few missed payc

(+) Yeah! (+)

hecks?

that that is the baseline economy that we desperately need to start up?

the fact that we live in a country where they think a significant portion of the population would kill themselves because they have literally no savings... and instead of that being a horrible thing we need to fix, its a reason to restart the same economy that led to that in the first place

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where are your sources and citations? Don't make up statistics.

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The president was on tv basically saying there would be a tremendous amount of people killing themselves if we don't get the economy started.

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Quicksilver posted...

The president was on tv basically saying there would be a tremendous amount of people killing themselves if we don't get the economy started.

Yeah this

https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/guid/69405D2C-6E9F-11EA-AAF7-27D4E02D4722

it is a big part of their argument to restart the economy prematurely

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Well, people need to earn a living. They should let workers who need money to have a choice to go to work as essential worker.

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I've seen multiple people suggest that the deaths from suicides if we continue lockdown will be worse than the number of COVID19 deaths. Which is completely ridiculous. Yeah, there may be an increase in suicides, but no way tens-hundreds of thousands of people are gonna kill themselves because of this.

Yeah they're just repeating what their masters say and their masters want the economy going again so they can buy that 3rd summer home and 4th yacht.

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It's not because of just missing a few paychecks, it's going to be because of the resultant bankruptcies of small businesses, foreclosures and resultant divorces.

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umax555 posted...

I've seen multiple people suggest that the deaths from suicides if we continue lockdown will be worse than the number of COVID19 deaths. Which is completely ridiculous. Yeah, there may be an increase in suicides, but no way tens-hundreds of thousands of people are gonna kill themselves because of this.

Tens of thousands absolutely will. Hundreds... not unless you count the total over a decade of recession, but it could hit 100k, absolutely.

Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093269/

Edit: also an Atlantic article on this topic: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/the-lives-lost-to-the-great-depression/279961/


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No we can't possibly revamp healthcare and give it to every American or provide some form of financial stimulus to those that absolutely need it until things become safe again, or even freeze loan collection or rent nationwide. Opening up the economy is the only way this can be addressed.

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s0nicfan posted...

Tens of thousands absolutely will. Hundreds... not unless you count the total over a decade of recession, but it could hit 100k, absolutely.

Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093269/

Edit: also an Atlantic article on this topic: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/the-lives-lost-to-the-great-depression/279961/

I wish more studies tried to disentangle income and employment effects with respect to suicide

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s0nicfan posted...

Tens of thousands absolutely will. Hundreds... not unless you count the total over a decade of recession, but it could hit 100k, absolutely.

Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093269/

Edit: also an Atlantic article on this topic: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/the-lives-lost-to-the-great-depression/279961/

That study doesn't really support increases of 10's of thousands unless it was to span a decade as the recent recessions there only see a small bump. The bigger issue is that the most recent data I can find was 2018 with 14.2 per 100,000, meaning for the 2008(11.6) recession the rate continued to climb well past the recovery point. I'm guessing some amount of opioid deaths were involved in driving this up. But a 2.4 jump over a decade is significant, but hard to attribute directly to the market as it kind of defies the previous data.

But saying we are at about 14 currently it takes a jump to about 17 to increase by 10,000 and there isn't any data to think that would happen.

realnifty1 posted...

That study doesn't really support increases of 10's of thousands unless it was to span a decade as the recent recessions there only see a small bump. The bigger issue is that the most recent data I can find was 2018 with 14.2 per 100,000, meaning for the 2008(11.6) recession the rate continued to climb well past the recovery point. I'm guessing some amount of opioid deaths were involved in driving this up. But a 2.4 jump over a decade is significant, but hard to attribute directly to the market as it kind of defies the previous data.

But saying we are at about 14 currently it takes a jump to about 17 to increase by 10,000 and there isn't any data to think that would happen.

Take a look at Figure 1 in the results discussion. The suicide rate spiked by something like 10 points per 100,000 during Peak Depression. A three point spike isn't that unreasonable because even the more recent 1980s recession saw a bigger spike than that. Obviously, it depends on the age group, but the data pretty clearly shows it would be sufficient to hit those numbers.

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s0nicfan posted...

Take a look at Figure 1 in the results discussion. The suicide rate spiked by something like 10 points per 100,000 during Peak Depression. A three point spike isn't that unreasonable because even the more recent 1980s recession saw a bigger spike than that. Obviously, it depends on the age group, but the data pretty clearly shows it would be sufficient to hit those numbers.

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see that, the largest valley to peak jump was 18 to 22 for the Great Depression over 6 years, but as noted by the graph that was pre New Deal when there was no Social Safety net to speak of. And honestly post that we see less correlation between between the economy and suicide rate other than to say that it is a contributing factor.

Certainly there will be an uptick, but nothing here supports an increase of tens of thousands.

realnifty1 posted...

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see that, the largest valley to peak jump was 18 to 22 for the Great Depression over 6 years, but as noted by the graph that was pre New Deal when there was no Social Safety net to speak of. And honestly post that we see less correlation between between the economy and suicide rate other than to say that it is a contributing factor.

Certainly there will be an uptick, but nothing here supports an increase of tens of thousands.

I'm less concerned with the overall picture because as the paper highlights the youngest group is basically unaffected so that's skewing the average. Its the groups over 40 that get crushed.



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And honestly post that we see less correlation between between the economy and suicide rate other than to say that it is a contributing factor.

From the paper:

The overall suicide rate and the suicide rates of the groups aged 2534 years, 3544 years, 4554 years, 5564 years, and 6574 years were positively, significantly correlated with the national unemployment rate

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Some might, republicans care not for the middle or lower classes.

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I lost 40% of my income, and I have cousins and co-workers who have lost up to 80%. March, April, and May are busy in my profession, and now that part of our business has been wiped out.

I'm a travel agent btw, travel is practically dead, and could be for the next year and a half. I've been buying stuff locally and selling it on Ebay to make due. This sucks.

TC thinks everyone works a 40 hour work week at some random corporation. Small businesses keep America running, and now half of them may be dead.

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Im less concerned about whether the actual statement is true or not (Ive seen articles for and against it that make decent points)

whats concerning to me is we live in a society where being unemployed for, lets say six months right now, would cause people to pick suicide instead and thats just the normal we should go back to

How do you see those statistics and not say this entire system is fucked up?

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TheGoldenEel posted...

whats concerning to me is we live in a society where being unemployed for, lets say six months right now, would cause people to pick suicide instead and thats just the normal we should go back to

I mean, it's not the fact that they're unemployed, it's them losing their job, having no income to provide food, medicine, shelter, transportation for them/their children/etc. But yeah, it's fucked. Murica.

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NinjaWarrior455 posted...

No we can't possibly revamp healthcare and give it to every American or provide some form of financial stimulus to those that absolutely need it until things become safe again, or even freeze loan collection or rent nationwide. Opening up the economy is the only way this can be addressed.

Reopening the economy can also lift the spirits of those who feel trapped by the current circumstances. The separation from community is tough to deal with.
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I like how the richest country in the world somehow can't afford to give its people something countries far less rich can afford.

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Prematurely ending quarantines will only cause a resurgence of infections, which will cause another wave of quarantines, which republicans will once again end prematurely for the same reasons, etc. etc.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

I like how the richest country in the world somehow can't afford to give its people something countries far less rich can afford.

Scarcity is artificial

Tyranthraxus posted...

I like how the richest country in the world somehow can't afford to give its people something countries far less rich can afford.

"Because that's socialism!"

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It's not about money. It's that without an economy there's little to life but watching TV and playing video games. That may work for some of us, but the longer this goes on, the more people wonder what we're keeping ourselves alive for. Shutting down to the bare minimum stops people from everything from major life events, to a lot of what others find fun, to things that need to happen but don't get deemed essential we get to wait for.

That might not be so bad if we has a firm and short timeline, but people seem to like this open ended and can think very long term, and 18 months of this scares people more accustomed to being social.

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Interesting stuff Sonic

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s0nicfan posted...

I'm less concerned with the overall picture because as the paper highlights the youngest group is basically unaffected so that's skewing the average. Its the groups over 40 that get crushed.

Yes, they get hit harder, but that doesn't line up with your statements. The groups over 40 make up less of the whole so even with a significantly higher deaths per 100,000 they aren't going to cause an increase of tens of thousands. That isn't how the math works, they aren't averaging the rates together, the second graph is just a subdivision of the whole with where they would map for each group size.

s0nicfan posted...

The overall suicide rate and the suicide rates of the groups aged 2534 years, 3544 years, 4554 years, 5564 years, and 6574 years were positively, significantly correlated with the national unemployment rate

I'm just going to have to disagree with that based on the evidence they presented. As I said it is a contributing factor, but there are too many upticks and outliers outside of the expected reasons to draw that type of correlation.

The most disturbing trend of their graph is the steady uptick in death 15-24, now compromising the most at risk group by the end of their data. It also does them no favors that they don't lay the data against they supposed hypothesis, the unemployment rate is known, graph it against the suicide rate if that is your position.

Were they wrong?

Hopefully our leaders arent idiotic enough to think ending lockdown now just to lose a million lives and restart the lockdown process again would be a great idea, but eh

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Without paychecks & employment people lose their healthcare & their homes. The quality of healthcare & healthcare availability shouldnt vary based on employment or employer.

The richest country on earth doesnt look after its own people the same way many other 1st world countries take care of their own.

We only talk about the freedom ofs in our country but not the freedoms froms. Freedom from having to worry about calling in sick because an employer may not offer it. Freedom from having to worry about the cost of medicine, surgery, or emergency room visits.

Its a shame it takes a pandemic & 20+ millions of people losing their jobs to realize the faults in our healthcare system.

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It's really funny how so many on CE claim to be economic experts but don't seem to understand why people are worried over all this

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The whole thing has really underlined how illusory employment rates and other stats are.

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