Current Events > I think a lot more people are going to Vote Trump this time

(+) Yeah! (+)

MabusIncarnate posted...

I'm defending nothing except the law in place.

you're not defending the law. the law would be "you cannot cross the border." You're defending the punishment, which is kids in cages and being lost and mishandled by the federal government.
MabusIncarnate posted...

You cannot just ignore law.

so you've never sped in a car before or jaywalked across the street? this idea that all laws must be followed regardless if they are just or moral is absurd. this nation was founded by people breaking the law lol

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BylethEisner posted...

Do you know why everything in USA is made in China? It is because of their abusive trade policies. He is just making things fair for Americans. Even if early on we suffer a bit from less cheap Chinese goods. The end game is to be more on fair trade terms rather than one sided terms.

Really I felt he made our standing better in places like Russia and China. Standing up to China makes us look powerful not weak in their eyes.

Farmers rely on bailouts because of the tariffs because China now buys from other countries. Standing up to an abusive country, something I would generally agree with, is not effective unto itself. We aren't doing a good job because we're biting the cost while China circumvents the tariffs through Vietnam, buys EU influence through Greece, and gets resources through nations by Africa since China can sell totalitarian states weapons & surveillance tech in exchange for materials useful to their economy.

Is Trump bad for trying to create policy against them? No. Is he effective at it? Not at all. China now leads a lot of economic summits and has made brazen power grabs in EU/AUS while continuing to develop a network in Africa.

I bring this up first because this'll be the most important thing in the history books out of his Admin. It'll be where China did something and we broke our international relationships & looked inward and found nothing due to poor economic policy.

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Sonic Cannon posted...

Is this a real perspective on this that people actually have? In the truest sense of the word, Trump's approach to the Bide/Ukraine stuff is an abuse of power and therefore *is corrupt*. Any moral value that might come from trying to expose corruption falls apart if your method of doing that is via corruption.

Pushing around some small country that has 1/30th the power of 1/50 of our states, just comes with the territory. You want to pretend no president has ever done this in your mind go ahead. But you don't become a powerful nation with the largest military in world by being kind and nice.

Zero_Destroyer posted...

Farmers rely on bailouts because of the tariffs because China now buys from other countries. Standing up to an abusive country, something I would generally agree with, is not effective unto itself. We aren't doing a good job because we're biting the cost while China circumvents the tariffs through Vietnam, buys EU influence through Greece, and gets resources through nations by Africa since China can sell totalitarian states weapons & surveillance tech in exchange for materials useful to their economy.

Is Trump bad for trying to create policy against them? No. Is he effective at it? Not at all. China now leads a lot of economic summits and has made brazen power grabs in EU/AUS while continuing to develop a network in Africa.

I bring this up first because this'll be the most important thing in the history books out of his Admin. It'll be where China did something and we broke our international relationships & looked inward and found nothing due to poor economic policy.

Not much else he can do but ride it out with China, and with all the currency manipulation they keep doing I feel we are winning.

As for Africa, China is playing a insanely smart long gain there. We will definitely regret not doing the same in a 100 years.

Zero_Destroyer posted...

Serious question: Is the law as written a justification unto itself even if the laws or policies are clearly unjust? The argument of "just following orders" or "it's the law' has been used to justify horrendous actions throughout history. Assuredly you or others here willing to converse can understand why family separation is vile and clearly fascist-like when compared to the very early stages of camps in prior proto-fascist governments.

The argument that these things existed before Trump doesn't exonerate him because

1: He has gone far & beyond what prior administrations have done.

2: This isn't a game in which only one can be criticized or potentially prosecuted.

3: Prior administrations don't make current decisions.

He hasnt gone beyond prior admins. Obama rounded up more people.

I will criticize all sides. But im not sure what your point is.

Im not blaming Obama admin, i am saying he started this. Trump has deported less people than Obama and i believe Bush.

You say family separation is vile, and i agree. So... What would you do? If you were president. Id like to hear it. And please drop the fascist shit, this isnt Italy in the 1930s ok? It makes you sound stupid. This is completely different. Trump is hardly a dictator.

BylethEisner posted...

The camps are stupid. We should just build massive detention centers designed around long term stay for refugees. Have them farm and grow crops, solar panels, etc. Do as much as we can to reduce their long term cost and make them self sufficent.

Current system is just making the people running these shoddy camps rich. Honestly leaving their kids with them would be cheaper and not require child care. The whole torturing them for being criminal is stupid.

Dude you just described forced labor camps. Its like the same fucking thing we have now except Bigger, kids are there, and you make them work. The left would Never go for that.

Keith_Valentine posted...

Dude you just described forced labor camps. Its like the same fucking thing we have now except Bigger, kids are there, and you make them work. The left would Never go for that.

Honestly, this is the lefts problem. Unrealistic humanitarianism, we can be humane and kind. But they need to realize we can't foot insane bills for it. Making people work for the safety of being in USA while they are processed seems to be quite the fair trade. Considering it will still be one sided with them benefiting more. Just us losing less.

Zero_Destroyer posted...

Farmers rely on bailouts because of the tariffs because China now buys from other countries. Standing up to an abusive country, something I would generally agree with, is not effective unto itself. We aren't doing a good job because we're biting the cost while China circumvents the tariffs through Vietnam, buys EU influence through Greece, and gets resources through nations by Africa since China can sell totalitarian states weapons & surveillance tech in exchange for materials useful to their economy.

Is Trump bad for trying to create policy against them? No. Is he effective at it? Not at all. China now leads a lot of economic summits and has made brazen power grabs in EU/AUS while continuing to develop a network in Africa.

I bring this up first because this'll be the most important thing in the history books out of his Admin. It'll be where China did something and we broke our international relationships & looked inward and found nothing due to poor economic policy.

So are you saying we should start being imperial in Africa like China is.....?

I need to google this 'EU influence through Greece' statement as well, Greece is failing and has no power.

*** https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/11/greece-china-hail-strategic-partnership-eu-191111170150762.html

Lmao, China fucking taking advantage of a desperate Greece to flood Europe and Africa with their cheapass shit. And Greece slobbering over it like little babies, even though theyre getting shafted long term, because they only thing they have left to offer is their ports and shipping.

China take the money they make from their unequal 'free' trade deals with the US and use it to push their influence across the rest of the world. Legitimate low-key imperialism. But oh.. The United States are the bad guys!!! Hahaha, fuck people are dumb.

Hey @pegusus123456 whered you and your big mouth go? I wanna hear your big brain policy on immigration.

There sure are some shite opinions in this topic here
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Keith_Valentine posted...

He hasnt gone beyond prior admins. Obama rounded up more people.

I will criticize all sides. But im not sure what your point is.

Im not blaming Obama admin, i am saying he started this. Trump has deported less people than Obama and i believe Bush.

You say family separation is vile, and i agree. So... What would you do? If you were president. Id like to hear it.

Obama's deportations were more streamlined and didn't choke the system. Because Trump has gone after everyone, camps are full of people waiting to be deported. On top of this meaning more family separations, this means unhygienic camps full of people for weeks.

There's a ton of problems with it, actually, including people being wrongly deported or placed into camps, but if you want to know what I'd do differently

-Address the fact that most illegal immigrants are here on expired visas, and that the border is an overblown threat used as a mechanism to rally a conservative base. There's a reason the wall hasn't been built. He had two years to secure funding and only started complaining when Dems took the house. It's a political tool, not a policy.

-Investigate and allow people who have been here for X amount of time to remain. In cases where there's no assumed significant crimes, don't deport or throw them into camps. After clearing investigations, force them to be taxpayers if they remain in the USA.

-Cut down on immigration coming into the U.S. by punishing businesses for hiring illegal immigrant labor, something Trump hasn't done, even though he said he would. (Because he's fine with them as servants.)

-Cut the war on drugs immediately. This will tank Cartel funding quickly since their largest consumer base can now buy legally at stores in the U.S. Abolish the DEA because they've been corrupt for decades. Mexico having increased stability will make it more attractive as a vacation spot, allowing economies to develop, meaning less people will want to immigrate at all.

Trump appointed Jeff Sessions as his initial Attorney General and has made no signals he intends to ease drug policy.

I'm fine with deportation for people who have committed recent and/or serious offenses. If that employs child separation, it could probably be managed in an orderly manner, without requiring the system to be stuffed to the brim with cases because Trump upped and decided everything needed to go now with no regard for how the system could handle or allocate things.

Additionally, don't deport DREAMers, because there is zero benefit in deporting children who have been here for nearly two decades on the basis of "duh lawwww" when they could've contributed to our economy, but can't in Mexico due to a lack of connections.

See? I have policy ideas. I don't have all day to think up every solution to everything, but I've suggested overarching ideas for years that try and get the core of people's issues with immigration.

-Make Mexico more stable by cutting out archaic drug laws

-Amnesty for illegal immigrants that have done no harm or have in whatever way benefited their community, since the U.S. profits off this, but doesn't allow new amnesty cases due to effort to curb illegal immigration

-Attack businesses for breaking the law at least half as cruelly as you do for families crossing the border

None of this is Trump's policy. His policy is to round people up, use the concept as a political weapon, do nothing to attack the core issues, support businesses & people whose interests make the issue worse. Because he profits, because he's a narcissist.

And please drop the fascist shit, this isnt Italy in the 1930s ok? It makes you sound stupid. This is completely different. Trump is hardly a dictator.

"Hardly" yeah, uh huh, sure. okay.

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10/10 lmbo

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Keith_Valentine posted...

So are you saying we should start being imperial in Africa like China is.....?

I need to google this 'EU influence through Greece' statement as well, Greece is failing and has no power.

*** https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/11/greece-china-hail-strategic-partnership-eu-191111170150762.html

Lmao, China fucking taking advantage of a desperate Greece to flood Europe and Africa with their cheapass shit. And Greece slobbering over it like little babies, even though theyre getting shafted long term, because they only thing they have left to offer is their ports and shipping.

China take the money they make from their unequal 'free' trade deals with the US and use it to push their influence across the rest of the world. Legitimate low-key imperialism. But oh.. The United States are the bad guys!!! Hahaha, fuck people are dumb.

Hey @pegusus123456 whered you and your big mouth go? I wanna hear your big brain policy on immigration.

Me: "Hey, China's doing really bad things, and it's effective. Our current policies aren't working and China is buying influence where it can, creating a long-term base in a number of geographic locations. Trump is woefully ineffective at combating this, and we're eating the price through forced bailouts and circumvented tariffs. We need a different strategy and Trump has not signaled he'll do anything."

You: "DURR U THINK USA BAD? HUHUHUH"

not taking China seriously is about as bad of a take you can get, especially when they're leading the soon-to-be VERY lucrative green industry. have fun with that lol, keep letting the dangerous mass surveillance state buy influence. you probably deny global warming anyways so you likely don't take energy industry stuff seriously

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Keith_Valentine posted...

Hey @pegusus123456 whered you and your big mouth go? I wanna hear your big brain policy on immigration.

Here's the thing. I am not the United States government. I am a chucklefuck posting on a mostly dead video game forum at 5 in the morning. I don't have to come up with a comprehensive plan on immigration to justify my opinion that putting kids in concentration camps is wrong.

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pegusus123456 posted...

Here's the thing. I am not the United States government. I am a chucklefuck posting on a mostly dead video game forum at 5 in the morning. I don't have to come up with a comprehensive plan on immigration to justify my opinion that putting kids in concentration camps is wrong.

It's strikingly easy, anyways. Don't target literally every family living in the USA illegally at the same time. Allow the concept of amnesty for contributing people to co-exist with reasonable policies that reduce immigration (and the necessity of it) while keeping some reasonable border security up while things are sorted out.

These are fine ideas that aren't being used because Donald Trump is an opportunist who employed a white nationalist (Stephen Miller) to write up his border plans. They don't care.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

There sure are some shite opinions in this topic here

Holy FUCK, another gem of a post from UnholyMudcrab. Way to offer absolutely Nothing as usual, crabby.

Damn Zero, i totally respect the fact that you actually made a ton of great points! Thank you, that is so rare on CE man.

I dont agree with amnesty. And that would create a ton of issues between my view of how this plays out and yours. Thats like, ok you jumped the system and forced your way in here. No prob! Whats to stop the rest of South america from doing the same thing? You say improved conditions down there will slow the trickle of refugees, but fuck man, how long woukd that take?! Can we enforce our border now, please?!

Youre right about Obamas deportation model. He focused on criminals and recent arrivals. People who deserve to go and those with less to lose. Trump fucked that up.

Totally agree about the War on Drugs. What a crock of shit. Fuck Jeff Sessions. Legalize weed, decriminalize drugs, and lock up drug dealers. Ez. The cartels will self destruct.

Youre still gonna have a humanitarian crisis deporting all the illegals already in jail and prison that are criminals and have kids. Theres no easy solution there, admit that.

You said, force those who have stayed here and commited no crime to be tax payers... How do we do that? I will have to google some shit and get back to you.

Very cool to have a poster who actually stands up for his beliefs and whatnot, Zero. I dont agree with amnesty but I respect your pov. Ive argued with many people on this issue and hardly anyone has actually articulated their point like you. And you didnt even call me racist! Haha. ;)

pegusus123456 posted...

Here's the thing. I am not the United States government. I am a chucklefuck posting on a mostly dead video game forum at 5 in the morning. I don't have to come up with a comprehensive plan on immigration to justify my opinion that putting kids in concentration camps is wrong.

Haha, see Zero, this is what im used to. Shit talkers with no substance.

** also you mentioned 'reasonable borser security'. Whats that look like? Tge left opposes All border security.

Zero_Destroyer posted...

Me: "Hey, China's doing really bad things, and it's effective. Our current policies aren't working and China is buying influence where it can, creating a long-term base in a number of geographic locations. Trump is woefully ineffective at combating this, and we're eating the price through forced bailouts and circumvented tariffs. We need a different strategy and Trump has not signaled he'll do anything."

You: "DURR U THINK USA BAD? HUHUHUH"

not taking China seriously is about as bad of a take you can get, especially when they're leading the soon-to-be VERY lucrative green industry. have fun with that lol, keep letting the dangerous mass surveillance state buy influence. you probably deny global warming anyways so you likely don't take energy industry stuff seriously

You fuck, Trump did a great job standing up to China! And you didnt imply what they were doing was bad at all. Trump has made lots of moves, admit he had our bitchass media hounding him for every single thing while China dominates their population and does whatever they can to pursue Chinese interests. Theyre way more fascist than we are, slick daddy. Point your anger that way.

** get Triple Posted

you responding seriously makes you better than most of 261's conservatives so props there. an actual conversation exists here which is a first in a while

ill respond to the immigration stuff later

one last bit re: china

Theyre way more fascist than we are, slick daddy.

Fascist is a pretty technical term that I don't think applies to China necessarily, but they are undoubtedly more totalitarian. I am frustrated that people don't take them seriously and I don't know Trump's motivations in this regard because it's good to try and hit them financially but he's ineffective at this.

China is legitimizing the idea of totalitarianism by creating friendly trade partnerships with African dictatorships. China gives them technology sufficient to oppress the population and perhaps employ people, and the target country. gives them material resources in return.

Like I said: I don't begrudge Trump for attempting a shot at them. I won't attack him for serious policy decisions that benefit people, I'll consider it a broken clock being right (once) a day. I begrudge him here because he's not using his platform to speak up about what kind of long game they're playing, and because he's not using his tremendous reach to positively effect industries U.S.-side that China is leading in, and because his methods now are costing farmers their long-term legitimacy.

The most he's done is speak up about them at all and trying to do something, anything; that's good, but I don't doubt most presidents would do the same, especially going forward.

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Yea, that makes a lot of sense to me.

We do need to lead the world in green energy. Thats a fact. Especially because its the right thing to do, while China is a huge polluter that would be working both sides of the fence. Investing in green while still polluting at will, because they dont have the EPA restrictions that we do. That tilts things in their favor. But we have American innovation on our side, weve won these shits every single time and we can do it again. Man that would be an awesome angle for Trump to pursue! Environmentalism shouldnt belong to the left, we should All want to be more sustainable. I like that.

And those countries would be a helluva lot better having alliances with us than selling their souls to China and letting their resources get farmed to enrich corrupt leaders and do nothing for the people. Thats depressing and an oppurtunity missed. I do totally give DJT props for calling China out, which is Way overdue, and I hope his successors continue to be as bold as he was.

I will track this topic and respond to you tomorrow if you carry on, im gonna start playing Metal Gear Solid 5 soon. Thanks for the food for thought.

MabusIncarnate posted...

Again, don't mistake this as disagreeing with you on a personal and humane level. I'm speaking government, nations, laws and processes. I can't say "I'm going to rob a bank because it will let me feed my kids and improve my life" and get away with robbing a bank. Law is law.

Ah yes, in Germany they say Befehl ist Befehl.

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