Current Events > I like how KOTOR 2 exposes the jedi for the hypocritical zealots they are.

(+) Yeah! (+)

(major spoilers)

The Sith aren't any better either, but I like how in KOTOR 2, we get a less biased narrative. If you only watch the movies and most other Star Wars media, the jedi are portrayed as larger than life figures and infallible. In reality though, they are hypocrites.

First of all, the whole "you can't feel strong emotions or show any passion" tenet they have is completely against human (or alien) nature. In reality, if you completely block out these basic sentient instincts, as the jedi do, the consequences in terms of mental and emotional health is extremely negative. Any mental health professional will tell you that repressing feelings is detrimental to well being.

Also, I like how in the game you clearly see how the jedi council was waaaay wrong in not immediately joining the Republic against the Mandalorians (millions of lives lost while they bickered).

But the best part is how the characters of the jedi masters Vrook and Atris were written to explicitly expose the jedi's hypocrisy. In one moment they spout their usual "harmony, control your emotions" BS, and in the SAME conversation, they demonstrate straight up hate, rage, and mal intent towards the Exile. It's actually pretty funny if you think about it. To me it got to the point that I can't even play as LS anymore in KOTOR 2, because then the Exile starts agreeing with the Council's judgement, and f*** that noise.

Again, I'm no Sith apologist either. To me the Jedi and the Sith are two extremes of an outdated belief system. That's why I'm more sympathetic to the Grey Jedi code. It's a shame Disney took out KOTOR as canon. These games are masterpieces. And even though KOTOR 2 was incomplete, the dialogues and themes make up for it imo. Been playing both games the last couple of weeks and the nostalgia has been hitting.

One last thing: Kreia is the most well written video game character I have ever seen.
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Atris wanted the Exiles D

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If you only watch the movies and most other Star Wars media, the jedi are portrayed as larger than life figures and infallible.

I was 10 years old when I saw TPM and my takeaway was that

they are hypocrites.

Qui Gonn was the only progressive thinker on the council, and Obi Wan always seemed to carry on his wishes somewhat begrudgingly. >_>

edit: wait, Qui Gon wasnt on the Council, lol

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kuwab0 posted...

Atris wanted the Exiles D

Non-canon. The Exile is canonically female.
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Crazyman93 posted...

kuwab0 posted...

Atris wanted the Exiles D

Non-canon. The Exile is canonically female.

I love KOTOR but my headcanon was always the inverse.

The MC from KOTOR 1 is female and the Exile is Male in my headcanon. lol
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I prefer male Exile as well, even not being canon. Handmaiden is just such a better character than Disciple.
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Jolee in KOTOR was a great character that showed that maybe the Jedi don't have all the answers too.

Honestly my biggest criticism with the series is how they often default to Jedi = Good and Sith = Bad. The prequels sort of hinted at it but not really. I'm not even sure if that was an intention or if it was clumsy storytelling (since they ended up being right about Anakin anyway). The Last Jedi goes into it a little but it was overshadowed by the rest of the movie and I doubt Rise of Skywalker will follow that up.

Being an atheist I'm probably a bit biased that the religious order in Star Wars is portrayed as the unanimous good guys though.
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Darmik posted...

Jolee in KOTOR was a great character that showed that maybe the Jedi don't have all the answers too.

Honestly my biggest criticism with the series is how they often default to Jedi = Good and Sith = Bad. The prequels sort of hinted at it but not really. I'm not even sure if that was an intention or if it was clumsy storytelling (since they ended up being right about Anakin anyway). The Last Jedi goes into it a little but it was overshadowed by the rest of the movie and I doubt Rise of Skywalker will follow that up.

Being an atheist I'm probably a bit biased that the religious order in Star Wars is portrayed as the unanimous good guys though.

Exactly. It's why I love ROTS. It's the movie which most touches on these moral ambiguities, with Palpatine's urging Anakin to not limit himself to the dogmatic view of the Jedi Council. Again, he's not much better though, just the other side of the extreme.

Like another poster said, Qui Gon is the SW character that most closely resembles what I think a jedi should be. Too bad he got offed early and we couldn't see him elaborate more on his views throughout the prequels.
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KOTOR 2 had one of the most creative stories about the Jedi I have seen, for once the villain wasnt just some evil dark side person, and the whole concept of being a void in the force was really interesting.

I was so mad when they retconned all of that in the Revan novel, making the Exile some regular Jedi who is weak as shit.

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Also it's funny how when I first played this game as a kid, I actually thought Kreia was the worst character because she was too "boring". But come on, I was like 12 at the time. Replaying this game again now at the age of 26, I feel embarassed I ever felt that way. Kreia is such an amazing character, with so many layers to her. You could just read her dialogues throughtout the game and be blown away.

It really goes to show how I don't think this is a kid's game. Not because of any explicit content, but because I don't think a kid or even teenager can fully grasp and appreciate the themes that this game brings to the table.
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A) The prequels show this
B) This is the stupidest "both sides" shit I've ever seen. The Sith are enslaving, mass-murdering genocidal, blatantly evil people.
C) KOTOR was never canon.
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but it's not canon! stop enjoying things!
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I always appreciated that LS in KOTOR II has the option to be played in more of a cone than a linear, straight path. You "could" play the good boy scout like you basically have no choice but to play in KOTOR 1, but you could also play a conflicted, weary Jedi that recognizes the harm he caused, and the harm the council caused - but also recognized being a decent person was the best version of himself he could be.

The characterization was so much better in KOTOR II, Christ.
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RebelElite791 posted...

A) The prequels show this
B) This is the stupidest "both sides" shit I've ever seen. The Sith are enslaving, mass-murdering genocidal, blatantly evil people.
C) KOTOR was never canon.

I said in my original post that the Sith are bad as well. I never said they were better than the Jedi.

And as a far as I know, KOTOR was canon before disney.
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GenGrievous03 posted...

I said in my original post that the Sith are bad as well. I never said they were better than the Jedi.

"They're two extremes"

GenGrievous03 posted...

And as a far as I know, KOTOR was canon before disney.

Canon pre Disney was the movies, TCW 2008, TCW show, and Son of Dathomir. That's it.
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Jolee deservers more appreciation

"Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you."

Jolee: "Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces."
"Are you saying what we're doing isn't important?"
Jolee: "Malak is a tyrant who should be stopped. If he conquers the galaxy, we're in for a couple of rough centuries. Eventually it'll come around again, but I'd rather not wait that long. So we do what we have to do and we try to stop the Sith. But don't start thinking this war, your war, is more important than any other war just because you're in it."

Carth: "So, Jolee, you decided to leave your little hermitage in the forest and come help us stop the Sith. I guess you realized this was worth coming out of retirement for, huh?"
Jolee: "Yeah, that's right, sonny. The Sith are the greatest evil to hit the galaxy since, well, the Mandalorians. And they're the worst thing since Exar Kun. Blah, blah, blah, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera."

Such a great character.
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Darmik posted...

Such a great character.

He was definitely the best character from the first game, best written one, too.
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RebelElite791 posted...

GenGrievous03 posted...

I said in my original post that the Sith are bad as well. I never said they were better than the Jedi.

"They're two extremes"

GenGrievous03 posted...

And as a far as I know, KOTOR was canon before disney.

Canon pre Disney was the movies, TCW 2008, TCW show, and Son of Dathomir. That's it.

Pretty sure you're mistaken there. There were a LOT of canon EU books, for one. My memory is not that bad.
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Not to mention the only worthwhile plot element in The Last Jedi. That should've been explored alot more to justify Luke's cynical attitude towards the entire Jedi history leading up to TFA.
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GenGrievous03 posted...

RebelElite791 posted...

GenGrievous03 posted...

I said in my original post that the Sith are bad as well. I never said they were better than the Jedi.

"They're two extremes"

GenGrievous03 posted...

And as a far as I know, KOTOR was canon before disney.

Canon pre Disney was the movies, TCW 2008, TCW show, and Son of Dathomir. That's it.

Pretty sure you're mistaken there. There were a LOT of canon EU books, for one. My memory is not that bad.

He is, but it's Rebel, he has his panties PERMANENTLY knotted up and full of sand.
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Crazyman93 posted...

sand

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Crazyman93 posted...

GenGrievous03 posted...

RebelElite791 posted...

GenGrievous03 posted...

I said in my original post that the Sith are bad as well. I never said they were better than the Jedi.

"They're two extremes"

GenGrievous03 posted...

And as a far as I know, KOTOR was canon before disney.

Canon pre Disney was the movies, TCW 2008, TCW show, and Son of Dathomir. That's it.

Pretty sure you're mistaken there. There were a LOT of canon EU books, for one. My memory is not that bad.

He is, but it's Rebel, he has his panties PERMANENTLY knotted up and full of sand.

Nope. EU were never canon, and Dave Filoni has flatout said that George himself never considered them so.
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Star Wars is bigger than George Lucas. But of course it's you and you need to find whatever you can to be obnoxiously full of yourself over. Have you ever once had a pleasant interaction with anyone on this site?
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Crazyman93 posted...

Star Wars is bigger than George Lucas. But of course it's you and you need to find whatever you can to be obnoxiously full of yourself over. Have you ever once had a pleasant interaction with anyone on this site?

It is, yes. Now that he no longer owns it. Yet I bet you're one of the people who now whines about how the new stuff isn't canon because George didn't make it.
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Please don't reply to Rebel people. Topics are far better without his bitterness being involved.
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If the Star Wars universe was limited to George Lucas' direct involvement, it would be awfully limited, as the movies only brush the surface of various themes and characters. I don't know why any SW fan would want to be so purist to this point. There is plenty of VERY good EU material out there, like KOTOR, which we discussed here.
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GenGrievous03 posted...

If the Star Wars universe was limited to George Lucas' direct involvement, it would be awfully limited, as the movies only brush the surface of various themes and characters. I don't know why any SW fan would want to be so purist to this point. There is plenty of VERY good EU material out there, like KOTOR, which we discussed here.

I'm not taking issue with you calling it EU material lol.
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I personally did not like KotOR 2's story, characters, or underlying premise.
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RebelElite791 posted...

Crazyman93 posted...

Star Wars is bigger than George Lucas. But of course it's you and you need to find whatever you can to be obnoxiously full of yourself over. Have you ever once had a pleasant interaction with anyone on this site?

It is, yes. Now that he no longer owns it. Yet I bet you're one of the people who now whines about how the new stuff isn't canon because George didn't make it.

It was bigger than him before he sold it. George Lucas was not Star Wars God and if you need any help understanding that, go watch the prequel trilogy again. And yes, the sequel triology is canon, it's not very good, but circle back to the prequels existing.

RebelElite791 posted...

GenGrievous03 posted...

If the Star Wars universe was limited to George Lucas' direct involvement, it would be awfully limited, as the movies only brush the surface of various themes and characters. I don't know why any SW fan would want to be so purist to this point. There is plenty of VERY good EU material out there, like KOTOR, which we discussed here.

I'm not taking issue with you calling it EU material lol.

Any time someone brings up the EU you instantly start screeching "NOT CANON! NOT CANON! IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! REEEEEEEE!" Don't fucking lie to us about your intentions.
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Jabodie posted...

I personally did not like KotOR 2's story, characters, or underlying premise.

KotOR2's premise has been done to death in Star Wars. And most of the characters are knockoffs of Star Wars movie characters, or inversions in the case of HK-47 and Hanaarr.
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Crazyman93 posted...

It was bigger than him before he sold it. George Lucas was not Star Wars God and if you need any help understanding that, go watch the prequel trilogy again. And yes, the sequel triology is canon, it's not very good, but circle back to the prequels existing.

Before he sold it he determined what was canon. Just as Disney/LFL does now. This isn't difficult.

Crazyman93 posted...

Any time someone brings up the EU you instantly start screeching "NOT CANON! NOT CANON! IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! REEEEEEEE!" Don't fucking lie to us about your intentions.

Because it isn't canon. But I was taking issue with it being called canon. Don't you have some Trump slurper topic to be posting in
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RebelElite791 posted...

Nope. EU were never canon, and Dave Filoni has flatout said that George himself never considered them so.

They are clearly not canon now, but pre EU-wipe the Star Wars franchise clearly considered them to be canon, just not to the same level of the Lucas made stuff. George obviously didn't care about them, but they were still official Lucasfilm or LucasArts material. Official efforts to maintain continuity were taken.

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at this point there's more interesting non-canon star wars material than actual good star wars movies
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RebelElite791 posted...

Don't you have some Trump slurper topic to be posting in

And here come the ad hominem insults. The mark of a weak mind and weaker argument.
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Ehh, the entire point of the prequels was kind of to show how incompetent and hypocritical the Jedi were. Yoda and Mace were fucking idiots along with the rest of the council.

Their failures threw the galaxy into darkness that they still haven't recovered from by TLJ.
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Delirious_Beard posted...

at this point there's more interesting non-canon star wars material than actual good star wars movies

That's been the case for like 20 years. Back then they just pretended the EU was canon even though the movies would never bother with it.
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Crazyman93 posted...

KotOR2's premise has been done to death in Star Wars. And most of the characters are knockoffs of Star Wars movie characters, or inversions in the case of HK-47 and Hanaarr.

I can't really tell if this post is agreeing with me or not.

Either way, I dislike the premise in other Star Wars stories (and "gray jedi" in general are a very dumb concept imo). And it's those knockoffs, except add questionably written PTSD and seventh grade philosophy on top.
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