Current Events > I 100% support transgender rights and don't get they upset people but...

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't understand the opposition to saying transgender athletes can't compete in female sports.

That's not a shot at transgenders or a slight. They absolutely have the right to do whatever they want with their lives. Body autonomy, have kids, job protection, visitation rights, put whatever they want on their ID, be considered what they want in law etc...

All that good shit. I don't get why anyone opposes that.

But even with hormone treatments, therapy and surgery, someone born into a male body with male bone structure and testosterone, sometimes for decades before any kind of transition, is going to have an unfair advantage over someone born in a female body.

That sucks and I wish it wasnt true, if I got to design humanity from the ground up it wouldn't be, but sadly it is true.

That's not a social issue or a personal/religious opinion, it's a biological one.

I feel like people who support transgender women vs born women in MMA, boxing, tennis, wrestling, racing, football etc are doing more harm to trans rights than help.

You're conflicting biological shitty facts of reality with jerks who have mean opinions and on doing so accidentally legitimize the jerks.

I cant be alone in this boat right?
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Make it less obvious next time you post bait
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I agree with you on this one. Any way you look at it, it's particularly unfair for women in their respective sports.

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SquantoZ posted...

I agree with you on this one. Any way you look at it, it's particularly unfair for women in their respective sports.

This
Testosterone may get reduced to female levels with hormone therapy, but male tendon, bone and muscle strength arent reduced enough to make it fair imo
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Anyone who has a brain can see that those people will have a physical advantage over women.


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It's most offensive at the high school level of competition. Kids could be missing out on scholarship opportunities.
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Vicious_Dios posted...

Anyone who has a brain can see that those people will have a physical advantage over women.

You say that but at least anecdotally I keep seeing people, a lot of whom are intelligent, well adjusted , hard working adults calling for it.

And putting people who oppose it like me in the same boat as bigots
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If we don't let them compete as their gender, then we are discriminating against them. And really only discriminating against MtF as no one is ever going to say trans men have an advantage. Banning them is discriminatory and making third gender divisions is telling them they are neither man nor woman. "Trans men are men but trans women are some weird other thing."
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Vicious_Dios posted...

Anyone who has a brain can see that those people will have a physical advantage over women.

Bigot!

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The trans debate is also the only time people pretend to give a fuck about women's sports.
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hockeybub89 posted...

If we don't let them compete as their gender, then we are discriminating against them

Well yes. We literally are.

But we are discriminating because they have a huge biological advantage

Same reason we discriminate against men competing in female sports.

It's a loaded word but the difference is in this one specific circumstance, the discrimination is necessary.

It's discrimination based on biological realities, not because of jerk opinions

Same way horses are discriminated in dog racing.. Because they would just win..
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Yep, in total agreement.
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RdVEHfJqAvUPIbk posted...

Make it less obvious next time you post bait

That would go against his gimmick.

Soggy_Pocket posted...

It's most offensive at the high school level of competition. Kids could be missing out on scholarship opportunities.

Meh, athletic scholarships are ridiculous anyway
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Doesn't work.

If you ban them because of biological differences then you are saying that those biological differences matter. AKA women cannot compete in women sports because they are biologically not women. Even if every other facet of life you are treating them as women, you are saying, "we'll say you're women, but we really don't THINK you're women" because other than that there is no reason to ban women from women's sports.

From what I understand from my conversations with transgendered people, simply being polite and "liberal" is a start, but it generally isn't enough, because if your identity is linked to you being seen a certain way, any sort of contradiction to that identity is jarring and hurtful. AKA you can't say transwomen are women EXCEPT when..." Because the "except" means that they aren't. Now this isn't true for all transpeople. Some agree with those biological differences when it comes to dating/sports, but I don't know the breakdown or the consensus.

There really is no solution to it that would make everybody happy.
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Tag
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AdviceMan posted...

If you ban them because of biological differences then you are saying that those biological differences matter. AKA women cannot compete in women sports because they are biologically not women.

Yes thats exactly what I am saying

AdviceMan posted...

Even if every other facet of life you are treating them as women, you are saying, "we'll say you're women, but we really don't THINK you're women" because other than that there is no reason to ban women from women's sports.

No I'm saying they are biologically not born as women.

AdviceMan posted...

From what I understand from my conversations with transgendered people, simply being polite and "liberal" is a start, but it generally isn't enough, because if your identity is linked to you being seen a certain way, any sort of contradiction to that identity is jarring and hurtful. AKA you can't say transwomen are women EXCEPT when..." Because the "except" means that they aren't. Now this isn't true for all transpeople. Some agree with t

I don't care if its hurtful, it's more hurtful to put a biological born woman in a boxing match against a biologically born man.

You can identify as a woman in life and law and ID and thats fair enough but I can't support sporting events that give one person or side an enormous biological advantage over the other.
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Piss off, troll.
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CappinGoat posted...

Piss off, troll.

Active posts 7
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Ignoring whether or not the biological advantage actually persists post-hormones etc, here's my counterpoint.

Sports are just inherently unfair based on physical characteristics. Basketball unfairly disadvantages short people. Those with better genetic dispositions for athleticism are generally better off in sports across the board. Singling out gender alone as a problematic dividing trait is, as far as I can tell, special pleading.

That answer may not be terribly satisfying, but it, too, is a biological reality.
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hockeybub89 posted...

The trans debate is also the only time people pretend to give a fuck about women's sports.

So? It is a pretty big issue.
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Eviora posted...

Sports are just inherently unfair based on physical characteristics. Basketball unfairly disadvantages short people. Those with better genetic dispositions for athleticism are generally better off in sports across the board. Singling out gender alone as a problematic dividing trait is, as far as I can tell, special pleading.

I dont agree in the slightest

Sure a 7 foot chick has an advantage in the WNBA but If men were allowed in the WNBA there would be no women in it.

Amanda Nunes could kill nearly any woman on earth in a fistfight but literally any male pro fighter of her weight would beat her easily.

Going "Some people have better genes than others therefore biological men should play In womens sports" is both a non sequitur and an end to womens sports

even mediocre MtF trans weightlifters are crushing female world records left right and centre .

Muscles, bone structures, testosterone, size. These all matter biologically
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"Equality! ...except for reasons I don't like."

Jerking my knee
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Questionmarktarius posted...

"Equality! ...except for reasons I don't like."

Has nothing to do with like.

It has to do with reality.

I would like biology to be equal but it is not.

Equality in law, ID, Visitation, healthcare, insurance, job security, child rearing etc. That's all good

But born women vs trans women in a boxing ring isnt equality, they are biologically not equals.

Not socially, not in law, not in the soul, not in mind, not in personal view, in literal biology.
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In the end, this just cycles back to "safe spaces" again.

Questionmarktarius posted...

In the end, this just cycles back to "safe spaces" again.

That isnt his argument.
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WerewolfPaws posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

In the end, this just cycles back to "safe spaces" again.

That isnt his argument.

But it is.
Why do we even have women's sports?

When you instantly respond with the usual answer, think about it for a bit, until you realize it's just a "safe space".

This is probably the least important issue in that arena and the fact that anti trans people cling to it is telling.

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Questionmarktarius posted...

Why do we even have women's sports?

Because women want to play sports?

And if it wasn't segregated they could never compete.

You do know women are allowed to play in the mens leagues right? they just biologically can't?

You wont see a chick as an NFL tackle. That's just a fact of biology
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Why do we even have women's sports?

Because women want to play sports?

And if it wasn't segregated they could never compete.

You do know women are allowed to play in the mens leagues right? they just biologically can't?

You wont see a chick as an NFL tackle. That's just a fact of biology

Thus, "safe space"

COVxy posted...

This is probably the least important issue in that arena and the fact that anti trans people cling to it is telling.

I'm not anti-trans.

And I dont think this is unimportant.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Why do we even have women's sports?

Because women want to play sports?

And if it wasn't segregated they could never compete.

You do know women are allowed to play in the mens leagues right? they just biologically can't?

You wont see a chick as an NFL tackle. That's just a fact of biology

Thus, "safe space"

I'm afraid I'm not following your logic, it's too sigless user for me
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It's fine if you disagree. However, if you temporarily remove transgender people from the discussion you're just demonstrably wrong. Tall men are vastly overrepresented in men's basketball, for example. Short men are at a crushing disadvantage. What you're arguing is that factors relating to biological sex have a larger effect than other factors such as height. That may be true; I don't know, and I doubt you have facts applicable across the board for all sports. I don't know if you have data regarding weightlifting, but I'm pretty sure you haven't pitted Amanda Nunes against literally every male pro fighter of her weight.

Regardless, my primary point is that you're just choosing one of many factors to care about ("biological sex") and completely ignoring the rest. You mention the end of womens' sports. Are you saying it would become literally impossible for women to participate in sports at a high level if they had to compete against men? If so, I'd like to see some concrete evidence. (Not speculation.) If not, then what's so bad about ending the segregation based on sex in sports? I don't see you complaining that, for example, people of African heritage are overrepresented in men's basketball due to a higher average height. Should we segregate based on race? Even if we do, we'll just find other unfair sources of inequality that bar a broad category of people from competing in each specific division. That's a result of genetic diversity.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

I'm afraid I'm not following your logic, it's too sigless user for me

"Equality!! ...except when I want to discriminate."

Questionmarktarius posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

I'm afraid I'm not following your logic, it's too sigless user for me

"Equality!! ...except when I want to discriminate."

Not me.

Biology

Trans women can't get pregnant or give birth
They can't produce milk from their breasts.
And they can't compete against born women as equals. They are biologically superior.

This is not me, its science doing the discrimination.

In terms of every non biological factual matter, I 100% support trans rights and dont get the opposition.

As I said, putting this on the same level as "you're just a bigot discriminating!" just gives unwarranted credibility to the jerks
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Eviora posted...

Are you saying it would become literally impossible for women to participate in sports at a high level if they had to compete against men? I

yes

Again do you not realise that women are allowed in the NFL, IN THE NBA, in the MLB.

Even in golf, darts, bowling.

They just literally cant compete

If a chick could run a mile in 3 minutes then she would be racing men at the Olympics.

That's biology. Men are naturally bigger, faster, stronger. Testosterone, bone structure, height, muscles. These all matter.
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Have you considered that women may not realize they're allowed in the NFL etc?

Regardless, you made a claim. Where's your evidence? I acknowledge that men are at a large advantage in many sports, but you've done nothing to prove there couldn't possibly exist women who could compete.
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Careful, I tend to get moderations when I say anything close to what you're saying in this topic, TC
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Eviora posted...

Have you considered that women may not realize they're allowed in the NFL etc?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK_hwFSEdPs" data-time="

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Careful, I tend to get moderations when I say anything close to what you're saying in this topic, TC

Probably because I don't insult or have anything against transgenders.
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You're right, TC.

And whoever said short people can't play basketball is wrong. They just adapt and use a different set of skills and techniques and play different positions.

It's the same in soccer. The huge tall dudes generally play as either center backs or target men because they're strong and win duels, while the speedy agile guys do better as wingers where their superior pace will see more use.

When women play against men, they lose badly. Extremely badly.
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Being accepted as the gender of your choosing is one thing, being given a leg up in sports because of it is another.

We can't ignore reality. We can try to appease and grant rights and freedoms to make everyone as happy as possible, but we need to keep things fair for everyone.
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Right. Well, you seem unwilling to engage with some of my points (non-sex-related unfairness in sports being completely ignored, requests for evidence) and show only a desire to throw memes at others. I shall categorize that as a concession of the argument. Have a lovely day!
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Eviora posted...

Have you considered that women may not realize they're allowed in the NFL etc?

Regardless, you made a claim. Where's your evidence? I acknowledge that men are at a large advantage in many sports, but you've done nothing to prove there couldn't possibly exist women who could compete.

the best female tennis player in the world was beaten by someone near the bottom of the top 100 men or whatever. men have an indisputable physical advantage over women. like pretty much all of history revolves around that fact. men have used their physicality to dominate society in all aspects. recently we've made strides as a society to close that gap since most jobs now don't need you to be physically strong to be able to do well. sports isn't one of those jobs though
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Ilishe posted...

We can't ignore reality. We can try to appease and grant rights and freedoms to make everyone as happy as possible, but we need to keep things fair for everyone.

See also: http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

UnfairRepresent posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

I'm afraid I'm not following your logic, it's too sigless user for me

"Equality!! ...except when I want to discriminate."

Not me.

Biology

Trans women can't get pregnant or give birth
They can't produce milk from their breasts.
And they can't compete against born women as equals. They are biologically superior.

This is not me, its science doing the discrimination.

In terms of every non biological factual matter, I 100% support trans rights and dont get the opposition.

As I said, putting this on the same level as "you're just a bigot discriminating!" just gives unwarranted credibility to the jerks

Just playing devil's advocate, but infertile women can't get pregnant or give birth, and assuming this "male lactation" I've heard about is true, it's probably also true for transgender women and I would guess they would produce more, but I wouldn't have any idea how much.
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And I don't discriminate against infertile women either.

Biology did.

What's your point?
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If anything, infertility is a huge advantage for careers.

Questionmarktarius posted...

If anything, infertility is a huge advantage for careers.

Wow

I can't even
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