Current Events > Why are people so against unions

(+) Yeah! (+)

But want all of the benefits
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Because they think unions are bad for society and the economy
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Corporate propaganda.
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Maze_ posted...

Because they think unions are bad for society and the economy

Because of corporate brainwashing.

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Anti-worker propaganda and corrupt unions giving all of them a bad name.
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Socialism

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Southernfatman posted...

Anti-worker propaganda and corrupt unions giving all of them a bad name.

This
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for: private sector unions
against: public sector unions
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the robber barons are still around
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Its just a crappy mechanic, and none of the monsters that use it are actually any good.

ABC was only good after being propped up by a ton of support, but even there the unions arent your end game, the contact fusion is.
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Public sector unions shouldnt exist.

Private sector unions would be fine as long as the government didnt put its thumb on the scale to help them.
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Most people are told a lot of lies about unions, and employers tend to lean on them to avoid them in favor of shitty arbitration processes and HR interactions that rarely end well but are more "personal"

I have been given the same "Unions are evil mobsters here to break apart the beautiful unity of our cold faceless corporate wasteland" talk in multiple jobs and it's just a miserable eyerolling time where you have to bite your tongue
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Haha unions suck why would I want to pay dues for those people who do nothing?

*complains about lack of raises, sues for union not wanting to represent them if they have a grievance or get reprimanded*

the weird thing is that a lot of contracts that are argued for by Unions, go for supervisors and management as well, I guess when you get brainwashed into heavy corporate culture in America you just like to beat down the little guy regardless of if they're on your side or not.
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You got it twisted, my union ( IATSE local 1) gets 4% paid by the employer, I get pension welfare and annuity also paid by the employer all argued for by the union (ie me)
The union also provides medical, dental, and an eyeglass plan, they also provide classes for certification.
They protect my rights and my wages, were the greatest local in the land... so stfu
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i wonder if walmart will close all of its stores if there was a nation wide push for a union
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Because they (the people) are brainwashed morons.

If you don't like unions stop taking weekends and holidays off, stop taking vacation time. We fought for and earned it, not you. Stop taking advantage of benefits you wouldn't have if not for unions.

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Trigg3rH4ppy posted...

Because they (the people) are brainwashed morons.

If you don't like unions stop taking weekends and holidays off, stop taking vacation time. We fought for and earned it, not you. Stop taking advantage of benefits you wouldn't have if not for unions.

They should work 14 hours/day too
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Shablagoo posted...

They should work 14 hours/day too

And send their children back to work.

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Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration ... The prudent, penniless beginner in the world labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This is the just and generous and prosperous system which opens the way to all, gives hope to all, and consequent energy and progress and improvement of condition to all. No men living are more worthy to be trusted than those who toil up from poverty; none less inclined to take or touch aught which they have not honestly earned. Let them beware of surrendering a political power which they already possess, and which if surrendered will surely be used to close the door of advancement against such as they and to fix new disabilities and burdens upon them till all of liberty shall be lost.

Abraham Lincoln, First Annual Message (1861)

ScazarMeltex posted...

Shablagoo posted...

They should work 14 hours/day too

And send their children back to work.

And be ok with dying on the job due to unsafe conditions.
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ScazarMeltex posted...

Shablagoo posted...

They should work 14 hours/day too

And send their children back to work.

The reason why child labor is gone is the West is because we can afford to live without it. It existed for the overwhelming majority of human history because we had no other choice. If a government tried to force Western labor laws on Bangladesh, children would either starve or turn to prostitution.

The wealth generated from the free market made it possible to eliminate child labor. Governments just took the final step which would have happened without them anyway, and took all the credit for it.
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i saw a list of 36 things unions fought for, and man... people would be acting differently if we were missing any of that.

If I ever have to get into it with management while acting as a union rep and they say something about unions, i'll say "So don't ever use a sick or vacation day again, since that came from a union."
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I've never really been in the category of people being exploited so I guess I can't really relate, but as a bystander, it annoys me to know that employees who are contractually obligated to do a job for an agreed pay rate, can suddenly decide they aren't happy with the terms of that agreement and choose to not do it (and disrupt the business and their customers).

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Unions in 2019 are completely irrelevant. They just enable people to think they're somehow above the market forces of supply and demand and other norms. Unions are usually more corrupt than the actual company.

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gloBal enemy posted...

it annoys me to know that employees who are contractually obligated to do a job for an agreed pay rate, can suddenly decide they aren't happy with the terms of that agreement and choose to not do it

do mass layoffs also annoy you?

REMercsChamp posted...

Unions are usually more corrupt than the actual company.

LMFAO

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gloBal enemy posted...

I've never really been in the category of people being exploited so I guess I can't really relate, but as a bystander, it annoys me to know that employees who are contractually obligated to do a job for an agreed pay rate, can suddenly decide they aren't happy with the terms of that agreement and choose to not do it (and disrupt the business and their customers).

you know people don't just go on strike immediately right?
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Paper_Okami posted...

do mass layoffs also annoy you?

Obviously it's going to impact those employees involved but at the end of the day, employees are working for an employer and the employer is within their rights (and in some cases legally obligated to) pursue profits/returns. Whether it's done in a humane/moral manner is probably where the focus needs to be rather than regulating away the ability for employers the freedom of choice.

REMercsChamp posted...

Unions in 2019 are completely irrelevant. They just enable people to think they're somehow above the market forces of supply and demand and other norms. Unions are usually more corrupt than the actual company.

I wouldn't generalise and say all are corrupt, but in some countries and specific industries, there is definitely an imbalance in union power and alignment with political parties which would indicate they are not necessarily acting in the best interests of each member.

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Akagami_Shanks posted...

you know people don't just go on strike immediately right?

I know it usually doesn't happen overnight but the decision to strike can be sudden (obviously to have maximum disruptive impact on the employer).

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Only downside of unions is they protect people who are unproductive and should otherwise be fired. Outside of that theyre a net positive.

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YourDrunkFather posted...

Only downside of unions is they protect people who are unproductive and should otherwise be fired. Outside of that theyre a net positive.

LOL that was succinct.

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many unions have reason to be criticized, but propaganda working on smaller, weaker minds is what has some average joes taking on that corporate anti-union rhetoric.

no blue collar worker should be against unions. even the police have unions.
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gloBal enemy posted...

I've never really been in the category of people being exploited so I guess I can't really relate, but as a bystander, it annoys me to know that employees who are contractually obligated to do a job for an agreed pay rate, can suddenly decide they aren't happy with the terms of that agreement and choose to not do it (and disrupt the business and their customers).

yes, disrupting the business is generally the purpose of a strike
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gloBal enemy posted...

employees are working for an employer and the employer is within their rights (and in some cases legally obligated to) pursue profits/returns.

lmfao amazing you have no self awareness

you see nothing contradictory in your beliefs about unions and you belief about employers

it's okay for them to break their contract with their employees to pursue profit

but it's not okay for workers to strike for a raise


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Paper_Okami posted...

lmfao amazing you have no self awareness

you see nothing contradictory in your beliefs about unions and you belief about employers

it's okay for them to break their contract with their employees to pursue profit

but it's not okay for workers to strike for a raise

Employment contracts allow for employment to be terminated with the appropriate processes/notice? Jobs aren't guaranteed forever, and companies don't exist for charity.

Workers striking are them deliberately not abiding by their agreement with their employer.

If I am not happy with the employment contract which I agreed to with my employer, then I can terminate the agreement by resigning in accordance with the terms I agreed to in the contract and seek employment elsewhere. I don't just not turn up to work because I don't get what I want.

I'm going to guess you have a bone to pick with the way you've been treated by an employer?

(I didn't address your point directly before but if the employer was a public company, the directors have a fiduciary duty to the interests of the owners/shareholders)

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gloBal enemy posted...

Paper_Okami posted...

lmfao amazing you have no self awareness

you see nothing contradictory in your beliefs about unions and you belief about employers

it's okay for them to break their contract with their employees to pursue profit

but it's not okay for workers to strike for a raise

Employment contracts allow for employment to be terminated with the appropriate processes/notice? Jobs aren't guaranteed forever, and companies don't exist for charity.

Workers striking are them deliberately not abiding by their agreement with their employer.

I'm going to guess you have a bone to pick with the way you've been treated by an employer?

believe it or not, some people are pro-worker because they base their opinions on analysis of actual material conditions, rather than their individual experience
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gloBal enemy posted...

I'm going to guess you have a bone to pick with the way you've been treated by an employer?

there's striking hotel workers near where i live
50k GM workers just went on strike

I have a problem with how Employers have all the power

and Workers have none

gloBal enemy posted...

Employment contracts allow for employment to be terminated with the appropriate processes/notice? Jobs aren't guaranteed forever, and companies don't exist for charity.

Workers striking are them deliberately not abiding by their agreement with their employer.

lmao at not seeing the hypocrisy in this

why should the workers "abide by the contract" if their employers can just fire them at the drop of a hat?


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averagejoel posted...

believe it or not, some people are pro-worker because they base their opinions on analysis of actual material conditions, rather than their individual experience

I edited my post a bit after to add a bit more colour since I rushed my response - but don't think it changes your comment.

I do acknowledge that working conditions in the US seem very different to what we have in Australia, but then I also have seen lots of inefficiency and underutilised employees when I was living in the US.

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Paper_Okami posted...

why should the workers "abide by the contract" if their employers can just fire them at the drop of a hat?

It's in the contract. I presume there would've been reasonable notice periods and redundancy packages, and yes I know I sound insensitive here, but the reality is that it happens.

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Heading to bed since it's nearly 3:30am here but basically my point remains that employees agree to a contract with an employer, the contract would have provisions for who can terminate the agreement and under what circumstances/process/notice/etc.

Again, I do acknowledge that it sucks for those impacted when a company decides to terminate employment whether it be because the individual is not being fully utilised, company has decided it's more economically feasible to change how they do something (eg offshoring) or they just need to wind up the operations because of broader economic change impacting the business (eg noone is buying their products), but what would you propose? To restrict the employer's ability to respond to macro or micro changes in individual or broader business/economic performance?

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it's okay for your employer to have a hilariously unbalanced amount of power over you as long as you both have freedom of choice

God bless Free Market Jesus

gloBal enemy posted...

averagejoel posted...

believe it or not, some people are pro-worker because they base their opinions on analysis of actual material conditions, rather than their individual experience

I edited my post a bit after to add a bit more colour since I rushed my response - but don't think it changes your comment.

I do acknowledge that working conditions in the US seem very different to what we have in Australia, but then I also have seen lots of inefficiency and underutilised employees when I was living in the US.

try thinking about labour issues as the systemic issues they are, rather than limiting analysis to your personal experience. it gives a much clearer picture of what's actually happening.
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A lot of people think unions killed American manufacturing, which isn't true. It's like how people think automation is only a thing because of minimum wage laws.

Unions are run by people like corporations, you cannot think of them as inherently good or bad.

averagejoel posted...

try thinking about labour issues as the systemic issues they are, rather than limiting things to your personal experience. it gives a much clearer picture of what's actually happening.

will do.

I sense a lot of things we take for granted here in Australia are due to the much stronger unions and political influence of these unions decades ago (one of our two main political parties is even called the Labour Party) which made workers rights, minimum wage, unfair dismissal, anti discrimination, working hours, etc into law such that nowadays when we see union activity it doesnt always seem as justified relative to community standards.

But again I am very selfish in this and have limited much of my thoughts to how Ive been impacted rather than the broader issues as I have not been in those positions myself.

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I also probably have a very different view because I work in an industry which doesnt have unionism

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To parrot what Ive heard older guys in my industry say (which is extremely non union friendly, but which does work with other industries who are heavily unionized often), the issues with unions are:

1) they essentially force everybody on the site in a certain position to join and pay fairly large dues...with pretty bad consequences if you refuse
2) you climbing up the pay scale ladder is purely experience based, not based on merit/initiative/skill
3) because of reason number 2, youll run into coworkers that are either inept or extraordinarily lazy
4) whatever the union decides, you gotta abide by

None of this is really my opinion, just shit that Ive heard thrown around.
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"My employer can just get rid of me if I'm not performing well or if the company doesn't need me anymore! They owe me a job forever!"

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I've worked retail and worked places without a union, and even though i was productive as i could be, i was still fired/let go from those positions.

So yeah, the Union does protect unproductive people, but that's because they have to protect everyone. It's not like they sit in a room and go "How can we make it so the workplace gets nothing done and keep unproductive employees here forever"
and with the Janus decision(btw he got a job advocating against unions right after he sued AFSCME and is now collecting pension that the union fought to get, irony huh?) Unions HAVE to represent everyone in good faith, regardless of if they are a member or not
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masticatingman posted...

To parrot what Ive heard older guys in my industry say (which is extremely non union friendly, but which does work with other industries who are heavily unionized often), the issues with unions are:

1) they essentially force everybody on the site in a certain position to join and pay fairly large dues...with pretty bad consequences if you refuse
2) you climbing up the pay scale ladder is purely experience based, not based on merit/initiative/skill
3) because of reason number 2, youll run into coworkers that are either inept or extraordinarily lazy
4) whatever the union decides, you gotta abide by

None of this is really my opinion, just shit that Ive heard thrown around.

the union can ask you to join, but they legally can't force you to, and there are no consequences, at least in my workplace. You either join or don't join, the only downside of not joining is that you basically have no voice when it comes to voting time and *sometimes* if you want the union to get involved in something, you will take lower priority, as long as they can prove they acted in good faith it isn't illegal if they uhh don't pursue your case as ruthlessly as they would a paying member.

But the dues here aren't all that large either, it's like 18 bucks out of my paycheck
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Akagami_Shanks posted...

I've worked retail and worked places without a union, and even though i was productive as i could be, i was still fired/let go from those positions.

So yeah, the Union does protect unproductive people, but that's because they have to protect everyone. It's not like they sit in a room and go "How can we make it so the workplace gets nothing done and keep unproductive employees here forever"
and with the Janus decision(btw he got a job advocating against unions right after he sued AFSCME and is now collecting pension that the union fought to get, irony huh?) Unions HAVE to represent everyone in good faith, regardless of if they are a member or not

My limited understanding is its pretty much mandatory to join a union and to not do so works significantly against you when you get excluded or brushed over for opportunities.

edit I realised you addressed this in your post Im actually basing my remarks here on what a family member went through- as a nurse.

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